Welcome to the Show! A M3E Colette Tactica

[Jordon]

If I had to voice my concerns about anything it would likely be for the showgirls. I just can't seem to get them to perform (heh) as well as I'd like. For all the reasons I'd want to hire them for, I just find myself drawn to saboteurs, who just do it better. Lure is great, but Colette sort of has me covered on the movement front.

Distracted does seem to be better now, but I still don't think it elevates the showgirls enough to warrant their existence. They simply die far too easily and their role typically gets them into harms way. 

I've found myself going elite with Colette, spending big on the holy trinity of Carlos, Cassandra and Harata. Either one of these characters will do the work of two showgirls.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Showgirls suffered the same fate as other low cost lurebots. They were designed and costed for an environment where lure was as good as it was in 2e. I personally think the 1ap charge (great change for the game as a whole) removed a large amount of Lure’s power.

[Silbuster]

Agree on the showgirls. Great models. Lacklustre performance. They might work at Mv 6. 

[Jordon]

What I liked about showgirls back in M2E (which wasn't much TBH). Was that they had Precious. This meant that killing them gave another model reactivate. This forced the opponent to make difficult choices as killing them would likely mean a more capable character would get to activate again.

They could also attack from their lure and even had some poison shenanigans that could work when paired with other Showgirls. 

I won't say that they were amazing back in M2E, but they did seem to have a more defined purpose.

Another feeling is that I get the sense that they are intended to be brought along side mannequins, who do offset their low durability. However at 9ss worth of models, I'm better off with the aforementioned henchmen.

[Silbuster]

Agree, Jordan. I used all three plus a mannequin each in M2E. They seem to lack a role in M3E. I think they, and their mannequins, need a bit more speed to compete as scheme runners.

[Vangerdahast]

@Jordon: Yes, Showgirls were great in M2E.

But I think that they can still be playable in some cases presently.

In my first game of GG2 with new Colette, my Showgirl (with Magical Training) died only in Turn 5 because of Hidden Martyrs. My opponent was worried I chose her and Carlos or Cassandra for this Scheme.

Hiring a Showgirl can give you an easy first point for Hidden Martyrs or you can fake this scheme and your Showgirl will be safe for most of the game.

Lure can also be used to reposition your own models.

 

I have only played a Break the Line game with new Colette and yes, she has been reworked to play essentially in keyword.  Concerning the Distracted buff, I feel that it has hindered my opponent a bit (he was playing Misaki) but mass Distracted can be difficult to achieve, Angelica has a role to play in this regard but I failed at that in this game.

 

I still need to test Harata but I don't think I will play Harata + Carlos + Cassandra. For me, Cassandra is mandatory (paired with Angelica for awesome speed) and depending on Strat and Schemes either Carlos or Harata.

In Break the Lines, I took Carlos to be able to place all the Strategy Markers in my opponent's half in Turn 1.

With Harata, I think I woudln't have been able to place the fourth Marker Turn 1 because of lack of speed (please correct me if I am wrong).

 

I think that GG2 is still well-suited for her but she is more difficult to play and less forgiving than before.

I am a little bit worried about what se can do in future GG less oriented on Interacting.

In GG1, new Colette wouldn't be able to play Public Ennemies or Recover Evidence like before.

Soloing Colette should be more difficult in the future.

 

One other thing, by the end of the game, the Colette crew will probably be outnumbered by the opponent's crew because of the fragility of her keyword. So, score your points as fast as possible.

In a tournament, where all turns won't be played due to time limit, it can be something that can grant Colette a win if the game only lasts three or four turns (and a loss in a five turns game).

In my lat game, at the end of turn 4 the score was 5-3, at the end of the game 5-6.

 

What other people think about OOK hiring now?

The Mechanical Rider (even nerfed) will still see play with Colette but don't know what other models could fit the new Performer Crews.

 

[Jordon]

6 hours ago, Vangerdahast said:

What other people think about OOK hiring now?

The Mechanical Rider (even nerfed) will still see play with Colette but don't know what other models could fit the new Performer Crews.

 

Mech is obviously great, but I do think she's less important of a pick with performers as they typically don't need as much help with scheming. Still solid though

I still rate Envy pretty high. Mainly as a great gun since performers are light on them. In terms of synergy, he does have some play with focused and can strip distracted for +1 damage. Mostly niche stuff but overall I've found his gun makes him worthwhile alone. 

As I mentioned above, I still really like Saboteurs with Colette. Ranged scheme removal is pretty sweet and they can use Arson twice when paired with Hirata (if he's in range). Overall I just like these over Showgirls. 

[SEV]

So Colette player, what is your current core list (post-nerf ofcourse)?

[astapable]

Also interested in experienced players go-to post-nerf lists. So please share with us.

[Vangerdahast]

After a few GG2 games with errated Colette, I have a core list like this:

Colette

Doves

Duet

Cassandra

Angelica

 

Depending on Strat and Schemes, I add Mechanical Rider or Carlos.

I would like to use Harata but his lack of movement trick and the lack of Don't Mind Me bother me. I will try him in Turf War to kill ennemies and flip Strategy Markers to neutral, I think.

As a Minion, I take a Showgirl or a Saboteur.

And I add Magical Training depending on the number of Soulstones that I want (between 6 and 8).

 

My games have been tight. As already said, don't expect to win by more than one or two points. And be careful with your actions, Colette forgives nothing nowadays.

 

I also need to test other things as well. This core list can be modified in the future.

If other players have other lists, please Share.

 

[grim_stoki]

I'm actually kind of bullish on showgirls post GG2:

• They are one of the cheapest Magical Training mules.
• Seduction went from a good action to a great action, with the potential to burn 3 net focus.
• Changes to presto-change mean low cost performers work better with the crew in general.

[Vangerdahast]

Some thoughts after a few more games.

My core crew is the same (see two posts above).

I regularly take: Carlos, Mechanical Rider, Showgirl in addition.

Concerning Harata, I have tested him and he can be of great value.

I used him with Duet to kill a Peacekeeper at beginning of turn 2.

Harata used his Haka with Peruperu for 1 ping damage. It was efficient with the Duet which have a stat 7 attack versus Df 4 of the Peacekeeper. That was a very good tool for bypassing the Armor 2 of the Peacekeeper.

About that, with the new Presto Chango, even if the range has been highly decreased, it is still possible to kill a big target turn 1 or beginning of turn 2.

Activate one of the doves as late as possible to see if your opponent has a bit overextended one of his models.

I have also killed a Dawn Serpent turn 1.

But it will be less frequent than before the errata.

On a side note, I have recently had great value out of Miss Fire (Willy). Playing often versus Masters with destructible markers (Misaki, Zipp, Euripides, ...), I have found that it can be a real pain for the opponent.

So I now regularly take him when facing these Masters. I swap him with Carlos or the Rider.

 

And it is still possible to win a game versus brutal Masters. Managed a 6-4 win versus Nekima in a Break the line game. At the end of the game, I  only had the Rider at 1 wound left and the Duet at 5 wounds left. Only killed the Totem and a Young Nephilim.

I scored my points fast then denied interacting as long as possible to stop my opponent from scoring the strategy by engaging his models.

Distracted, Manipulative, Finesse and Serene Countenance helped a lot.

 

[eddy]

So we know "rulling" for cassandra copied bonus action counting to bonus action limit. What about dorian fussy company trigger? If he already took losing interest bonus action he can not use fussy company trigger? It look like  this interpretation is not intended and works against designers wish. 

(Imo Cassandra should be able to do another bonus with upstage). 

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 hours ago, eddy said:

So we know "rulling" for cassandra copied bonus action counting to bonus action limit. What about dorian fussy company trigger? If he already took losing interest bonus action he can not use fussy company trigger? It look like  this interpretation is not intended and works against designers wish. 

(Imo Cassandra should be able to do another bonus with upstage). 

Triggers ignore the bonus action limitation, so he still works.

[eddy]

7 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Triggers ignore the bonus action limitation, so he still works.

Cool thanks

[Adran]

15 hours ago, eddy said:

So we know "rulling" for cassandra copied bonus action counting to bonus action limit. What about dorian fussy company trigger? If he already took losing interest bonus action he can not use fussy company trigger? It look like  this interpretation is not intended and works against designers wish. 

(Imo Cassandra should be able to do another bonus with upstage). 

Just for completeness, page 22 says

"A model can only take one Bonus Action per Activation, unless the Action was generated by a Trigger."

[Jordon]

I'm having some difficulty with Colette2 and was wondering if others could share some insight. I've tried her a few times now and I really can't see when I would be taking her over the original outside of very specific counters such as LadyJ2 or Tara. 

In terms of defence, Colette2 seems way more vulnerable than her original title. Disguised with Df6 just isn't doing the work of Serene Countenance. Likewise, Fadeaway is just so far and away better than Now You See Me. Using up her decoys defensively just depletes her effectiveness offensively, which seems counter productive. 

I think my main concern is that it's very tough getting decoy markers up field. Doves being the exception, but doves also die to pretty much any attack. So I'm finding myself needing to get up into the front lines, but as I mentioned, she simply can't handle the front lines.

I feel like I'm spending half of my actions walking (getting decoys into position), which feels pretty awful. When I finally do get to attack, I find the payoff quite mediocre. Stat5 attack with min1 damage and a place effect just doesn't impress. Her ranged attack again feels rather mundane unless you're able to use the trigger. 

I think it would impress me more if Colette 1 just didn't already do everything that Colette2 does but better. Presto Chango is just so much more impactful. Yes it does require some placement and setup but honestly I find moving showgirls WAY easier than moving Decoys.

It's cool to be able to be in a bunch of places at once, but often I just need to be in one place and Colette1 is just better at moving around than Colette2. Also decoys can stomped by any model with no duels. So all the setup can be seen miles away and thwarted with relative ease.   

Basically I feel like Colette2 is just a water downed version. Both of them do very similar things, Colette1 is far more disruptive. Neither really care about their keyword, but especially so with Colette2. 

Please tell me I'm missing something here...  

[Maniacal_cackle]

15 minutes ago, Jordon said:

I'm having some difficulty with Colette2 and was wondering if others could share some insight. I've tried her a few times now and I really can't see when I would be taking her over the original outside of very specific counters such as LadyJ2 or Tara. 

In terms of defence, Colette2 seems way more vulnerable than her original title. Disguised with Df6 just isn't doing the work of Serene Countenance. Likewise, Fadeaway is just so far and away better than Now You See Me. Using up her decoys defensively just depletes her effectiveness offensively, which seems counter productive. 

I think my main concern is that it's very tough getting decoy markers up field. Doves being the exception, but doves also die to pretty much any attack. So I'm finding myself needing to get up into the front lines, but as I mentioned, she simply can't handle the front lines.

I feel like I'm spending half of my actions walking (getting decoys into position), which feels pretty awful. When I finally do get to attack, I find the payoff quite mediocre. Stat5 attack with min1 damage and a place effect just doesn't impress. Her ranged attack again feels rather mundane unless you're able to use the trigger. 

I think it would impress me more if Colette 1 just didn't already do everything that Colette2 does but better. Presto Chango is just so much more impactful. Yes it does require some placement and setup but honestly I find moving showgirls WAY easier than moving Decoys.

It's cool to be able to be in a bunch of places at once, but often I just need to be in one place and Colette1 is just better at moving around than Colette2. Also decoys can stomped by any model with no duels. So all the setup can be seen miles away and thwarted with relative ease.   

Basically I feel like Colette2 is just a water downed version. Both of them do very similar things, Colette1 is far more disruptive. Neither really care about their keyword, but especially so with Colette2. 

Please tell me I'm missing something here...  

I don't have much experience, but not sure why you need to do damage?

I just ran her and her crew as unstoppable scoring machines. 

Between Carlos, cassandra, doves, and colette herself (she can leap with a bonus action), you can get to where you need to score and move enemies out of the way if you need to. Or murder symbol guards if necessary xD

[Vangerdahast]

I have some good results with Colette2 despite too few games (5-6).

Yes, she is a bit more fragile than Colette1 but you can play her to avoid bad match-ups like Justice2 or Tara (as you said) but also as Now You See Me isn't a Trigger, she is a good pick versus Ten Thunders (Masked Agent Upgrade) or models that disable Resistance Triggers (Executioner for example).

Colette1 needs her Keyword more than Colette2 to unbury where she exactly needs (without relying only on her Scheme Markers) and for Presto Chango. Colette2 can be played without her Keyword.

Concerning Decoy Markers, I use them defensively and use the Doves to Interact where needed. I think I would avoid playing Colette2 versus gunlines that can kill the Doves from afar. But hiding the Doves until the ennemy crew is engaged in melee is a solution.

You can play more melee beaters to engage ennemy models and Colette stays hidden in the back and interacts via Doves.

The best Strategies for Colette2 are Symbols of Authority (where the Doves can reach easily Markers in narrow spaces) and Turf War where the Doves can be used to make far away Strategy Markers friendly.

It also permits to use less models for some Schemes like Spread Them Out or Breakthrough.

In a game versus Lynch2, the Doves scored me 2 VP for Symbols and 2 VP for Spread Them Out.

Colette1 is better in Corrupted Ley Lines (Sword Trick being so useful to bury the ennemy Lodestone carrier) and in Break the Line where you only really need Don't Mind Me on all your models, Doves will be killed too easily as the majority of ennemy models will be near the centerline.

So, I need to test Colette2 more but I thknk that she complements well Colette1 by countering bad match-ups and playing differently some Strategies and Schemes. But she also is more unforgiving than Colette1 as she is more fragile. So she has a role but she doesn't outshines Colette1 (as some other Masters do) which is the goal of Titles, IMHO.

But, you can also only play Colette1 and have good results. Perhaps also a matter of personal playstyle.

 

[Jordon]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't have much experience, but not sure why you need to do damage?

It's not necessarily that she needs to do damage, but in my limited experience she should be doing something differently enough from Colette1. Both masters seem to excel at scoring and scheming which makes them feel more like they're competing against each other. As opposed to other titles who really shift the master in a different direction. 

@Vangerdahast So you use the decoys more defensively and the doves as the "getting it done" options? Do you find that most of your actions are indeed just for scheming? Or do you get much milage from her attack actions?

I'm finding it tough as the doves are chargeable models and die to even the most basic attack. Hiding only seems to go so far. Decoys are nice in that they cannot be charged but they also a lot harder to position and chaff can easily remove them. 

Basically she can't seem to keep up with her marker generation compared to how easily they're removed. Cassandra can help in the regard though. 

[Vangerdahast]

Yes, Colette2 uses her actions for Strat and schemes via doves and rarely attacks  but scoring win games, killing don't (thee are exceptions).

Agree with you conerning Decoy Markers (hard to position) and Cassandra. As a side note, creating Decoy Markers is a good source of Soulstones, thanks to the trigger and low TN. Generally gives 3 to 5 Soulstones per game. Always useful.

And yes, contrary to other Masters, Colette1 and Colette2 do the same thing but do it differently.

I would also have preferred a new playstyle. But Colette2 is playable at least.

 

 

[RayMet]

I'm using Showgirls for soulstone mining. Seduction have a triger "Expensive gift" you can just use it on Colette, she kill a Mechanical Dove instad of discard soulstone. And you have a free card and stone for 1 action. 

[eddy]

1 hour ago, RayMet said:

I'm using Showgirls for soulstone mining. Seduction have a triger "Expensive gift" you can just use it on Colette, she kill a Mechanical Dove instad of discard soulstone. And you have a free card and stone for 1 action. 

You have to have tomes for trigger, and you get distracted on Colette. Imo totally not worth it unless you have nothing to  do with your crew in t1 (and it means you probably playing wrong). 
You can get SS miner and do it better + maybe score something

[Vangerdahast]

6 hours ago, eddy said:

You have to have tomes for trigger, and you get distracted on Colette. Imo totally not worth it unless you have nothing to  do with your crew in t1 (and it means you probably playing wrong). 
You can get SS miner and do it better + maybe score something

For me, Doves are too important for Presto Chango and to unbury Colette where I need her the most. I won't kill a Dove to gain 1 Soulstone (even if I can summon another Dove).

And as @eddy says, Soulstone Minzr is a better pick for that.

 

[Jordon]

14 hours ago, RayMet said:

I'm using Showgirls for soulstone mining. Seduction have a triger "Expensive gift" you can just use it on Colette, she kill a Mechanical Dove instad of discard soulstone. And you have a free card and stone for 1 action. 

You could just hire a soul stone miner. Less resources AND they can actually do stuff