Bayou Errata

[Scoffer]

38 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Well, why would you detonate your own Bayou Gremlins in the deployment zone starting turn 1? Makes no sense.

Draw a card and create a corpse for Cranky. It's better, than a Bayou Gremlin.

[Mxbedlam]

50 minutes ago, Scoffer said:

Old Cranky can do a lot for a 5-stone model. A [+] on initiative flip is huge. Stat7 Obey is fine even without a built-in mask - it's the same as Amina Naidu (a 9ss Henchman) has, you will need a card in hand to make it happen, but it's still just a 7mask. Frantic search with a 50% chance of gaining a stone means that this model costs only 2.5 stones instead of 5. As long as Som'er can summon several Bayou Gremlins each turn and kill them with Make Me Proud Boys there will be no problems with corpse markers in your deployment zone for Cranky.

I have to concur about why would you kill the bayous in your deployment zone? They can get up the board and do more as road blocks or surprise schemers if your crier is in range.  Cranky does best if he's sort of hanging in the cover aura of Lenny. Shouting orders is his best thing on his card by a wide margin, and he needs to be fairly close for that to happen

[ShinChan]

11 minutes ago, Scoffer said:

Draw a card and create a corpse for Cranky. It's better, than a Bayou Gremlin.

For a summon (or 2ss) and a master action? Not worth at all.

[Scoffer]

5 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

For a summon (or 2ss) and a master action? Not worth at all.

Som'er can summon multiple models with a single action. If I have a 13 in hand, I can summon a Good Ol'Boy and a Bayou Gremlin. Alco Cranky can do the kill himself.

[Rosskov]

I think we're on an OK spot. In my opinion:

 

I think the first mate could stand to lose the inbuilt ram on its melee attack. 

 

Regarding Brin, calculate the possibilities should be once per activation (mainly because it's too uninterractive for your opponent) but if give him an inbuilt draw a card trigger on his ranged attack to balance it out. 

 

Smugglers need love...and a bit of direction. At the moment they don't really have a role. I can't see that changing unless they become a niche higher for a subsequent gg. Eg engage you opponent's model without being engaged. 

Fingers is over costed. I'd give him the crow inbuilt on his bonus and either don't mind me or drop him a stone in cost. 

I find wong's keyword a little Lacking in general. 

 

I think the last gg fixed the issues with being obeyed to mess around with strategy markers pretty eloquently. 

[Rufess]

So surprise that no one mentioned Ophelia. According to current rules and wording, she can only choose the first upgrade when using Plink. And nit is unsure that if she can use the ability second time or not. Errata is needed to make Plink work as intended.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Rufess

[GrumpyGrandpa]

4 hours ago, Rufess said:

So surprise that no one mentioned Ophelia. According to current rules and wording, she can only choose the first upgrade when using Plink. And nit is unsure that if she can use the ability second time or not. Errata is needed to make Plink work as intended.

Not sure if I understand what you mean. Can you give an example of the upgrade, and the specific rule & wording?

[Scoffer]

4 hours ago, Rufess said:

So surprise that no one mentioned Ophelia. According to current rules and wording, she can only choose the first upgrade when using Plink. And nit is unsure that if she can use the ability second time or not. Errata is needed to make Plink work as intended.

We had a long discussion of this matter in our local playgroup and came to a conclusion, that Ophelia can discard any upgrade as long as text of Plink! is the same on each of them, but only one upgrade per source of damage. I think it's the way it was intended to work, and it needs some official clarification.

[GrumpyGrandpa]

41 minutes ago, Scoffer said:

We had a long discussion of this matter in our local playgroup and came to a conclusion, that Ophelia can discard any upgrade as long as text of Plink! is the same on each of them, but only one upgrade per source of damage. I think it's the way it was intended to work, and it needs some official clarification.

Huh, I always figured it was any amount of upgrades. 

[Rufess]

Plink read like this:

Quote

Plink!: When this model suffers damage, it may discard this Upgrade to reduce the damage suffered by 1.

So for example, when Ophelia has attached the Hooch Igniter Upgrade, she gains the ability Plink!: ...discard this Upgrade(Hooch Igniter)..., and she, after attached the Tar Bomb Upgrade afterward, would not able to gain another Plink!: ...discard this Upgrade(Tar Bomb)... since a model cannot gain the same ability twice(unless it has a value).

Quote

If a model gains a second instance of an Ability it already
possesses (most often from an Upgrade), the second
instance of the Ability has no effect unless the Ability
has a value (such as Armor +1).

In the result Ophelia can always only discard Hooch Igniter for the Plink ability even if she is carrying all of her 5 Arsenal Upgrade. And since the rule book mention nothing about re-gaining the same ability, so we have no idea which Upgrade is giving her the next Plink. Is it following the order of attaching? Or by Ophelia choice? Or, the worst, she is not re-gaining the ability until she attach a new Upgrade?

I and my mates play as Ophelia can discard any one of her Upgrades as she wants as long as she has Arsenal Upgrades attaching, but still I wish an official words about this issue.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Rufess

[solkan]

Plink really should have been changed to some variation of

Quote

Plink (+1):  Plink!: When this model suffers damage, it may discard a [whatever this upgrade's key is] upgrade to reduce the damage suffered by 1.

or

Quote

Plink +1!: When this model suffers damage, it may discard up to +1 [whatever this upgrade's key is] upgrades to reduce the damage suffered by 1 per discarded upgrade.

or just delete the words "This model gains the following Ability:  Plink!: " so that it's a non-Ability effect on the upgrade like the damage aura is.

 

[Omenbringer]

On 12/12/2019 at 7:45 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

Bayou Gremlin. He's the basic Gremlin and Versatile but does anyone outside of Big Hat ever hire one? I'm not at all sure what should be done as they are so cheap and have good synergy with Big Hat but I really wish that they could be adjusted somehow to make them at least an occasional consideration.

The Bayou Gremlin's largest issue is their victim stats.

2 SS is a high price to pay for a model that is this easy to remove (even if it does provide a Card in return). Sure you can cluster them close for an up to +2 bonus but that comes with its own set of issues (Shock Wave, Blasts, activation ordering, LOS/ movement blocking, etc). Even summoning them is often a losing proposition compared to other options.

A second errata possibility for them is to address the Pass token generation penalty they often come with. They are already Insignificant so why punish the player twice by also giving the opponent Pass tokens. I would rather see them given an ability that removes the Pass token generation for them than the Demise Card generation.

Just my thoughts.

[Maniacal_cackle]

On 12/27/2019 at 4:34 AM, Omenbringer said:

The Bayou Gremlin's largest issue is their victim stats.

2 SS is a high price to pay for a model that is this easy to remove (even if it does provide a Card in return). Sure you can cluster them close for an up to +2 bonus but that comes with its own set of issues (Shock Wave, Blasts, activation ordering, LOS/ movement blocking, etc). Even summoning them is often a losing proposition compared to other options.

A second errata possibility for them is to address the Pass token generation penalty they often come with. They are already Insignificant so why punish the player twice by also giving the opponent Pass tokens. I would rather see them given an ability that removes the Pass token generation for them than the Demise Card generation.

Just my thoughts.

That was a huge problem last edition I hear. Guaranteeing last activation is extremely powerful, and easily worth 4 stones for a couple of gremlins hiding in the corner somewhere.

I agree the pass token issue punishes models like these, but it is an important balancing factor.

A general rule could be a solution, such as capping pass tokens at 3. The rat solution is also good (rats can skip their activation to eat an enemy pass token).

[Jesy Blue]

43 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

That was a huge problem last edition I hear. Guaranteeing last activation is extremely powerful, and easily worth 4 stones for a couple of gremlins hiding in the corner somewhere.

I agree the pass token issue punishes models like these, but it is an important balancing factor.

A general rule could be a solution, such as capping pass tokens at 3. The rat solution is also good (rats can skip their activation to eat an enemy pass token).

Capping Pass Tokens at all ruins the whole Qi and Gong crew, so let's not touch that.

How about just making Bayou Gremlins Mindless, but give Somer an ability that negates them being Mindless if he's the leader?

[Omenbringer]

On 12/30/2019 at 3:55 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

That was a huge problem last edition I hear. Guaranteeing last activation is extremely powerful, and easily worth 4 stones for a couple of gremlins hiding in the corner somewhere.

I agree the pass token issue punishes models like these, but it is an important balancing factor.

A general rule could be a solution, such as capping pass tokens at 3. The rat solution is also good (rats can skip their activation to eat an enemy pass token).

Bayou Gremlins have been hacked to pieces from what they were last edition, and I would argue they weren't as great as they were made out then either. Since last edition for a single SS reduction in cost they have lost 1 point of Defense, 1 point of Willpower, 2 Wounds (this is probably the most dertimental), 1 point on their Banjo Bash attack in addition to a reduction on their damage spread, 1 point on their Boomstick attack in addition to a 2" reduction in range, Bayou Two Card, Dumb and Reckless and Dumb Luck.

In exchange they got a model limit, an expanded Squeel Trigger which is unlikely to ever come into play because of the Low Stat values, Insignificant, a Demise ability to gain a singular control card on their death, a limited cluster buff that raises their stats to average levels while making them extremely susceptible to Blasts, Aura/ Pulses, and Shockwaves, a Trigger on their Banjo Bash providing a singular additional point of damage in exchange for ending their activation, and 2 new triggers on their Boomstick (one that is a crappy combination of Ricochet and limited Dumb Luck and the other which is only marginally better).

I am not asking for broken, I am asking for a compelling reason to hire or summon them (especially this) at all.

On 12/30/2019 at 4:43 AM, Jesy Blue said:

Capping Pass Tokens at all ruins the whole Qi and Gong crew, so let's not touch that.

How about just making Bayou Gremlins Mindless, but give Somer an ability that negates them being Mindless if he's the leader?

While I would love to have seen a cap on Pass Tokens, that ship has sailed. It is what it is now.

Adding Mindless (somewhat better than Som'er's Family Gathering upgrade penalty from his once per activation Summons which incurs both Slow and generates a Pass Token while also being limited to 5 copies in play unless you hit a 2nd suit trigger to discard it on a single summoned model) and something similar to the Malifaux Rat's "Just a Rat...?" ability to Bayou Gremlin's is a compelling option. The 2 together would go an awful long way to making them worth considering with their current deficiencies. I wouldn't mind also seeing the Rare Limit increased to 12 as well.

I still contend that the issues with out activation last edition were not the result of crews that were designed to have it, but crews that could gain access to it through faction hiring pools without additional costs. The Keywords have gone a very long way to fixing that this edition.

In the end it is up to the devs to decide on how to complete Som'er and the Bayou Gremlins (which have changed quite a bit from his initial Boss of minis previous editions).