Ideas for upcoming errata (NVB)

[Ogid]

I've seen this kind thread in other subforums and it seems a good idea. Briefly, without going into too much details. Which models would you like to be reviewed for the next errata and why?

In my case:

• Zoraida: I've no experience with her but I've read a lot of concerns about her power level as second master. So it'd be interesting reviewing if she is overperforming as a second master and in that case consider nerfs only for that like a +1SS cost or put "can only be taken is the model is this crew's leader" in the ensorcer trigger.
• Stitched Together: It looks fine to me but there are a lot of controversy about this one. It wouldn't hurt checking if they are really ok or if other iterations could be less "NPE" to face while keeping his role and powerlevel.
• Bultungin: Useful but very glassy. I'd like to see a tankier version, maybe stealth or a -1SS cost.
• Bloodwretch: Underwhelming for his cost and role... I'd add H2K, Ruthless and Flurry.
• Lilitu: I'd like to see an extra defensive buff like Df5, Butterfly Jump, Manipulative, Face in the crowd, Bullet Proof+1 or Protected (Lelu or Nephilim).
• Killjoy's blood pact: Make "Complete the Ritual" less vulnerable to obey. "If this action would be taken outside of this model activation, its owner may choose not to" or make it a .

[solkan]

17 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Killjoy's blood pact: Make "Complete the Ritual" less vulnerable to obey. "If this action would be taken outside of this model activation, its owner may choose not to" or make it a .

Obey says "that does not Attach Upgrades or list a model by name".

Blood Sacrifice says "Unbury a friendly Killjoy".

🤷‍♀️  

If people are running around claiming that they can use Obey for stuff like "Summon a Trained Raptor" (Summon a Trained Raptor...", the issue isn't Complete the Ritual.

 

[Regelridderen]

I’d want to see Baby Kade back on df7 with Rush - I just like the idea of the super speedy murder baby.

-

I think GG0 fixed Zoraida. Now events can choose to play with the unholy synergies of Dual masters or without. While Obey were neutered into oblivion as a strategy.

I have no problems with stitched. And have never played Titania...

-

But still... I’d much prefer an errata and FAQ free game.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Regelridderen said:

I’d want to see Baby Kade back on df7 with Rush - I just like the idea of the super speedy murder baby.

Oh god, murder baby is already a terrifying stab fest. He is so good, df 7 alone would break him. Rush would actually make a good thematic change, but I'd still worry about it breaking him.

2 hours ago, Ogid said:

I've seen this kind thread in other subforums and it seems a good idea. Briefly, without going into too much details. Which models would you like to be reviewed for the next errata and why?

In my case:

• Zoraida: I've no experience with her but I've read a lot of concerns about her power level as second master. So it'd be interesting reviewing if she is overperforming as a second master and in that case consider nerfs only for that like a +1SS cost or put "can only be taken is the model is this crew's leader" in the ensorcer trigger.
• Bloodwretch: Underwhelming for his cost and role... I'd add H2K, Ruthless and Flurry.

Zoraida - change her card cycling to be only if she is the crews leader. Her card cycling is 100% the problem when I take her as Dreamer (well. That and the free scrap markers). Without swamp eyes, the obey isn't as big a threat.

Bloodwretch... They're going to be explorer's society. I'd bet a doughnut on it.

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Regelridderen said:

I’d want to see Baby Kade back on df7 with Rush - I just like the idea of the super speedy murder baby.

Haha, that would be probably too good, but it's quite funny to picture 

[Regelridderen]

6 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Haha, that would be probably too good, but it's quite funny to picture 

He used to have a charge of 8” along with Df7 and a potential 5/6/8 damage track. He was a real sweetheart

[Maniacal_cackle]

7 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

He used to have a charge of 8” along with Df7 and a potential 5/6/8 damage track. He was a real sweetheart

Hahaha, that's so broken. I generated 1+5 attacks from him yesterday, and the 2/3/4 damage track seemed like baby-murder-god. Can't imagine that damage track xD (1 lure attack + 3 attacks from him + 2 from coordinated attack).

[Ogid]

14 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

He used to have a charge of 8” along with Df7 and a potential 5/6/8 damage track. He was a real sweetheart

So a base 3/4/6 track like LCB or Teddy now... haha. I guess the games were faster there, there is no way models survive longer than 1 turn after attacked by those kind of things.

6 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Hahaha, that's so broken. I generated 1+5 attacks from him yesterday, and the 2/3/4 damage track seemed like baby-murder-god. Can't imagine that damage track xD (1 lure attack + 3 attacks from him + 2 from coordinated attack).

Wow, that sounds like the perfect set up for him... I guess you gave him a mask (with Pandora) and had luck/cheated the Lure attack, right? Who was able to survive/last 5 attacks btw? If the coordinated model were Teddy, that's 12 damage just hitting minimum damage for a model without damage reduction.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Ogid said:

So a base 3/4/6 track like LCB or Teddy now... haha. I guess the games were faster there, there is no way models survive longer than 1 turn after attacked by those kind of things.

Wow, that sounds like the perfect set up for him... I guess you gave him a mask (with Pandora) and had luck/cheated the Lure attack, right? Who was able to survive/last 5 attacks btw? If the coordinated model were Teddy, that's 12 damage just hitting minimum damage for a model without damage reduction.

It was against Reva, and coordinated attacks with the Poltergeist (who was there for the willpower aura). So it was basically:

• Use lure, with the opponent at a minus (they were already in melee range/in the poltergeist aura). Cheat a like 9 of rams to hit, since they were on a minus.
• Take an attack with a positive to the flip. Gain fast from pounce.
• Take a regular attack, luckily flipped a mask.
• Take a regular attack, luckily flipped a mask.

But the same thing would be easy to do with Pandora giving him a rams (and cheating a mask), or giving him a mask (and cheating a rams). Kade is pretty bad by himself, but in Pandora's aura (so she can use mood swings to protect him if people try to activate nearby) and Poltergeist's aura (so people lose their ruthless ability), he is murder-baby-god.

[Sharp_GT]

9 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Zoraida - change her card cycling to be only if she is the crews leader. Her card cycling is 100% the problem when I take her as Dreamer (well. That and the free scrap markers). Without swamp eyes, the obey isn't as big a threat.

1000% agree. Almost all of the complaints against zoraida (that aren't sky is falling level of hyperbole) and most of the complaints against second masters are because of this. She is one of the few and easily the best cards-positive master you can take. For the magic the gathering fans out there, she has 'wheel of fortune' stapled on her card which is insane when backing up a card hungry crew like dreamer.

[Ogid]

4 hours ago, Sharp_GT said:

1000% agree. Almost all of the complaints against zoraida (that aren't sky is falling level of hyperbole) and most of the complaints against second masters are because of this. She is one of the few and easily the best cards-positive master you can take. For the magic the gathering fans out there, she has 'wheel of fortune' stapled on her card which is insane when backing up a card hungry crew like dreamer.

I haven't played her, but I wouldn't go down this route if a nerf would be needed. There are amazing card cicle effects in this game in other factions, Zoraida is one of the few good card cicle models in NVB (and it also let the other player refill his hand so a player frontloading damage may put the hag in a tough position), and that would leave her without bonus action. I'd rather see her trigger and/or eyes in the forest locked out than the card draw as a second master (so limiting the power of her obey and range instead of her utility)

[GrumpyGrandpa]

I'm surprised that more people don't mention the Hooded Rider. It is, from my point of view:

• An amazing beater
• A highly mobile model
• Flexible in what you need it to do
• Very survivable
• Has a game-ending bonus action in the later (3+) turns of the game.

I've seen Zorida do horrible, horrible things with it, but I can imagen other Masters having similar succes.

[Adran]

9 minutes ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

I'm surprised that more people don't mention the Hooded Rider. It is, from my point of view:

• An amazing beater
• A highly mobile model
• Flexible in what you need it to do
• Very survivable
• Has a game-ending bonus action in the later (3+) turns of the game.

I've seen Zorida do horrible, horrible things with it, but I can imagen other Masters having similar succes.

Others have complained it is the least useful of the riders, just being a big beater which they can already hire several of in faction.  That probably means its at about the right level...

[Regelridderen]

15 minutes ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

I'm surprised that more people don't mention the Hooded Rider. It is, from my point of view:

• An amazing beater
• A highly mobile model
• Flexible in what you need it to do
• Very survivable
• Has a game-ending bonus action in the later (3+) turns of the game.

I've seen Zorida do horrible, horrible things with it, but I can imagen other Masters having similar succes.

I don't think anyone will opine against the Rider (any rider) being a good model, but I doubt many will say it needs an errata. Hooded is a horribly expensive beater capable of dealing damage over many targets and adding a little mobility to a crew. But I always find him in hard competition with Hinamatsu, Miss Ery and Carver, depending on the opposition. Which is a good sign, that he's in line with the rest.

[GrumpyGrandpa]

9 minutes ago, Adran said:

Others have complained it is the least useful of the riders, just being a big beater which they can already hire several of in faction.  That probably means its at about the right level...

I can see that, but I prefer to look at each model regardless of their counterparts in other factions. Model X can still be considered too strong, even if model Y is available.

Still, figured it was worth a mention.

[Ogid]

It's worth a mention, Riders in general could get looket at; but from all the Riders Hoody isn't the best one so that's why I didn't mentioned it in my OP. He is definitely a top tier beater in the faction, but not as autoinclude as others and being so short range open him more to counterplay.

[Regelridderen]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

It's worth a mention, Riders in general could get looket at; but from all the Riders Hoody isn't the best one so that's why I didn't mentioned it in my OP. He is definitely a top tier beater in the faction, but not as autoinclude as others and being so short range open him more to counterplay.

Agreed. I think, the Hooded has plenty competition, but the Pale is supposedly an auto-include for guild (although, that might be more of a problem with the faction as a whole). 

[Angelshard]

I'd nominate Razorspine Rattler for an errata. It's a versatile model that I've never even considered taking in a crew. Even with Marcus I can't see why I would take it. It's not that it's bad or anything, it's just that it doesn't really offer anything, it's the strawberry icecream of neverborn, not bad, but never the one you end up choosing.

Personally I see it as an expensive schemer and counter schemer, but I think it lacks something to really fulfill that role.

My bid would be removing the poison on attack and lowering the stat to 5 and then give it stealth. It would be a really mobile schemer and could still hold up other models.

[Kharnage]

59 minutes ago, Angelshard said:

It's a versatile model that I've never even considered taking in a crew. Even with Marcus I can't see why I would take it.

Firstly, it's not versatile. Don't know why it isn't, but it's not. As for Marcus, it gives him a Df 6 model that can't ditch its upgrades, which sounds bad until you start getting Obeyed to attack yourself, conveniently electing to buff your attacks at the cost of your upgrades if you had adaptive evolution. They're, despite having 1 less wound, tankier than cats, and don't require a decent card to use their free move, just any card at all, assuming they're unengaged and not in terrain, and still retain Deadly Pursuit. They also synergize well with the Scorpius aura because poison. Constriction is also poorly worded, and means that enemies also take neg flips to attack them if they want to disengage. Basically they're tanky, good scheme runners. Not offensively scary, but they could serve a purpose.
Are they great? No, but I think they're decent and recommend a second look, they're my special snowflake Marcus minion since no one else likes them.

[Ogid]

Razorspine has a tough competition with all the very nice 8SS beast Marcus has access to; but it's not bad, just a model that get the job done without showing off. It has some nice perks (df6, constriction and wicked being the most unique things it brings). In the Marcus ARC thread it was discused recently.

However I wouldn't try to reinforce its scheming role at the cost of his ofensive power, it cannot compete with Sabertooths (or the blessed in ARC) in that department having jump and it weaken one of the things it's good at. The rattler can also scheme decently well with how fast it is and ambush, but leap is much better.

TLDR: Put armor mutation on it, throw it into something you want to control and activate early in the turn to get shielded (Df6, Armor+1, Shielded+2 and 7 Wds isn't easy to tackle), from that point use Deadly Pursuit and the reposition trigger to move it always outside of its activation so it keeps tab on models without having to move and lose Shielded+2. Or use it as a tankier schemer / scheme runner hunter.

[Angelshard]

Huh? I'm pretty certain they were versatile last I took a good look at them (which, admittedly, was in beta). 

Non-versatile makes them less annoying as I really struggled to justify them in any other crew, even fae. 

[Ogid]

In general Chimera make poor versatiles, most of the models aren't that good without mutations... Myranda, the Scorpious and maybe Ferdinand are the ones more pickables as OOK imo. However for a chimera the rattler isn't that bad outside of the crew. 

If they were versatile, I'd consider them in fae over Bultungins most of the time... and probably in other crews as a scheme runner/hunter, and they would be quite legit with Pandora (Poison = Ping damage in both its turn and the enemy turn when a model tries to disengage and is damaged using Wicked; Misery could also be used to engage enemy models with them). But with the +1SS tax they are harder to justify.

[Ogid]

What about Maurice? In a recent thread picking ideas about crew building versus a gunline, he wasn't exactly praised. How do you find him? Is he a legit pick or he could use a buff?

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 hours ago, Ogid said:

What about Maurice? In a recent thread picking ideas about crew building versus a gunline, he wasn't exactly praised. How do you find him? Is he a legit pick or he could use a buff?

I think he will be part of an Explorer's society keyword (Half blood), and so it is hard to assess until the rest of his crew is released.

[Ogid]

Maybe... but even in that case they should be models worth picking as versatile here.