Ideas for upcoming errata (outcast)

[Ming]

Benny Wolcomb is an oddball, who has the worst of both worlds. He can't utilize blight tokens, so he doesn't bring much to Plague. Plague also doesn't provide enough markers for his rat engine. He doesn't bring much to Bandit either - his Plague abilities become useless and he's more of a melee model with no interesting abilities. He has access to more markers and can turn rats into new enemy scheme markers, but other same costs bandits have more juice. And this guy is a Henchman, who can theoretically be a leader with 2 keywords.

[Ming]

What if we give Doc Mitchell By Your Side ability? It will be similar to his M2E ability and allow to heal/assist effectively.

[Ajatros]

I don't think Doc needs any further bonuses. Arcane reservoir alone is a good reason to keep him on the table and out of trouble, I don't think it's necessary to get any healing done to get value out of him. And the bedside manners ability, which is yet unmentioned in this thread, is super strong for pulling models out of combat or LoS of enemy models after a single hit. Especially Parker himself, since he does not like to be tied up in melee.

I agree with Benny being an oddball model that doesn't really fit in either of his keyword crews well. His scheme marker/rat creating actions could be quite strong and he brings ranged scheme marker removal to be sure, but Parker does that stuff just fine already and free fast is definitely better than the occasional rat. Maybe buff him so that his melee attack had  built in and Loyal rats with tiny rats would be a bonus action (and raise the TN a step or two) so he could potentially swing twice, drop two schemes from the trigger and chunk out two rats. He's still going to die to a stiff breeze, but at least you have the potential to do something interesting without using too much resources. And speaking of survivability, he's supposed to be a rat catcher, so he could have the covered in rats ability to give him a chance of surviving after he gets in there. It would suit his theme well and give an additional reason to summon rats near him.

[Zebo]

Really, only if just Direct Control  trigger  from Hamelin's Unclean Influence stated that Malifaux Rats are not considered Insignifican for the action generated, it would be a more sweet engine (still not able to drop scheme markers too near to other scheme markers). 

Also, Loyal Rats with tiny hats could have better range, or maybe have the option to not remove the scheme markers in range (only if you want), but then it should be only once per activation. 

Anyway, it's not a bad draw engine to give Benny and other model Wanted Criminal and exchange one action and the bonus action from Benny to draw 3 cards each turn. (You have one scheme marker in range, summon a single rat of it, kill the rat and drop a enemy scheme marker, draw 2 cards for the 2 upgrades and 1 card for the rat's demise). 

[RisingPhoenix]

Overall models that I think could use some tweaking up:

 

Benny Wolcomb: He's just not very good in either Hamlin or Parker.  Or anyone, really.  He needs to be better at generating rats if that's going to be his thing.   Or maybe make Rat Kings take one less rat to make in a 3" aura or something.  

Talos: He doesn't really do much.  He's a dumb robot.  7 wounds is really pathetic, he needs at least 8 or 9.  He trundles forward, he does a few attacks, then he dies.  

Lazarus: Another dumb robot.  Why doesn't he have blasts anymore?  I get shockwave is the new hotness, but he just can't consistently put pain on a group of enemies.  In fact he can't really reliably do anything.  2/3/4 damage on a 9 stone model with nothing much else is unacceptable.  At least he has 8 wounds unlike Talos.  Like Talos, he's also overcosted and bad.  

Student of Conflict: Is beyond awful.  Thank you for listening to my TED talk.  She could use like 4 separate upgrades to be worth taking.  I could take a Dead Outlaw for 2 more stones to get Covetous Cravings, 3 out of keyword.  I'd probably pay 3 more for one in a Viks crew anyway, at least the dead outlaw is guaranteed not to die immediately.  Def 4/4 wounds is not much.

Bishop: 9 stones a 9 wound model that has no defensive tech is really unbelievably hard sell.  And he's close range.  He'll get shot off the board vs most things, and beaters with armor can just get in his face and kill him.  

Abomination/Desolation Engine: As useless as ever, now with even less reason to get them.  

Winged Plague: I honestly question if it'd be worth it at 3.  It dies to literally everything.  You can take Benny to turn it into a rat.  Or you could take two rats.  Two rats actually seems better.  This might be the worst scheme runner in the game.

Convict Gunslinger: He costs 8 stones.  Gee.  I could get Hans for that.  I get you want to not have a 5/6/7 pileup with Banditos, Dead Outlaws, and Convict Gunslingers, but Convict Gunslinger just ends up feeling like a 7 stone model that costs 8.

Drachen Trooper: Why is he movement 4?  Why?  Why?  Close range, movement 4, you can't even use his flamethrower in close range.  You can fix this so easily, give him Gunfighter, give him mv 5,  That's it, he'd be okay at that point.  

 

 

[Ming]

On 1/16/2020 at 10:50 AM, Ajatros said:

I don't think Doc needs any further bonuses. Arcane reservoir alone is a good reason to keep him on the table and out of trouble, I don't think it's necessary to get any healing done to get value out of him. And the bedside manners ability, which is yet unmentioned in this thread, is super strong for pulling models out of combat or LoS of enemy models after a single hit. Especially Parker himself, since he does not like to be tied up in melee.

Actually, Parker can easily get out of engagement using Reposition trigger on his Attack.

[Ming]

10 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Lazarus: Another dumb robot.  Why doesn't he have blasts anymore?  I get shockwave is the new hotness, but he just can't consistently put pain on a group of enemies.  In fact he can't really reliably do anything.  2/3/4 damage on a 9 stone model with nothing much else is unacceptable.  At least he has 8 wounds unlike Talos.  Like Talos, he's also overcosted and bad.  

Student of Conflict: Is beyond awful.  Thank you for listening to my TED talk.  She could use like 4 separate upgrades to be worth taking.  I could take a Dead Outlaw for 2 more stones to get Covetous Cravings, 3 out of keyword.  I'd probably pay 3 more for one in a Viks crew anyway, at least the dead outlaw is guaranteed not to die immediately.  Def 4/4 wounds is not much.

Convict Gunslinger: He costs 8 stones.  Gee.  I could get Hans for that.  I get you want to not have a 5/6/7 pileup with Banditos, Dead Outlaws, and Convict Gunslingers, but Convict Gunslinger just ends up feeling like a 7 stone model that costs 8.

Drachen Trooper: Why is he movement 4?  Why?  Why?  Close range, movement 4, you can't even use his flamethrower in close range.  You can fix this so easily, give him Gunfighter, give him mv 5,  That's it, he'd be okay at that point.  

 

 

I disagree regarding these models.

1. Lazarus is a beast now. Shockwave ignore LOS, Terrifying, triggers etc. Plus they can destroy scheme markers on the trigger. Add his Unyielding and Assimilate abilities with access to Fast. I used to think that Laz is a weak model, too. But I've changed my mind completely. Yes, you won't take it all the time, but in the right matchup he's an autochoice. Although, he is very good in Amalgam crew as well as in Freikorps.

2. She's a good schemerunner and denier.

3. The guy who can easily have six shots with built-in + per activation for a start? Plus his Df trigger, Chain Gang etc? And he's also a minion for Upgrades and Equipment? Some take both Convicts in a Crew. There's a big rivalry in 8ss slot in Bandits, for sure, but these guys are good.

4. There's a lot of mobility enhancement in our Faction, so low Mv isn't such a problem. You can easily get out of engagement even on your own with Reposition. And engagement doesn't prevent you from using your main abilities and actions the Drachen is usually hired for.

[RisingPhoenix]

1 hour ago, Ming said:

I disagree regarding these models.

1. Lazarus is a beast now. Shockwave ignore LOS, Terrifying, triggers etc. Plus they can destroy scheme markers on the trigger. Add his Unyielding and Assimilate abilities with access to Fast. I used to think that Laz is a weak model, too. But I've changed my mind completely. Yes, you won't take it all the time, but in the right matchup he's an autochoice. Although, he is very good in Amalgam crew as well as in Freikorps.

2. She's a good schemerunner and denier.

3. The guy who can easily have six shots with built-in + per activation for a start? Plus his Df trigger, Chain Gang etc? And he's also a minion for Upgrades and Equipment? Some take both Convicts in a Crew. There's a big rivalry in 8ss slot in Bandits, for sure, but these guys are good.

4. There's a lot of mobility enhancement in our Faction, so low Mv isn't such a problem. You can easily get out of engagement even on your own with Reposition. And engagement doesn't prevent you from using your main abilities and actions the Drachen is usually hired for.

I'll accept maybe Lazarus has some uses I haven't seen.  But Student of Conflict?  Why?  The Viks have one of the best schemerunners in Outcasts with Ronin - 6 wounds, hard to kill, Battle Tempo AND On the move, they can go 17" up the board, take a few hits, and even carve their way through other scheme runners with armor ignore and a flurry trigger.  Plus you can pop 'em for a two soulstone refund. Student is not that.  And Df 4/4 wounds means that even other scheme runners can just kill her with a quick shot or a few melee attacks.  Ronin are fantastic models, and Student strongly resembles a really bad Ronin.    

3.  "Easily" hit three masks triggers on a minion without a built in suit?  I wish I flipped like that.  In all honesty, you'll probably average 1.  And yes, Delay is fine too.  The defense trigger is again a non-built in mask that he can't get easily.  The real problem is Df 5/Wp5 7 wounds, bulletproof 1.  As you said, Parker has lots of guns, and the Convict Gunslinger just brings another gun, a squishy one that costs a lot of stones.  I wish he had Ruthless or something to justify the cost.  As it is, I can't see bringing him over anyone else.  Put an upgrade on him and you could get Alyce or Ashes and Dust out of keyword for the same cost!  

4. What did we hire him for?  I think even in VS I'd rather spend ten soulstones and get Mad Dog Brackett.  Run and Gun and Life of Crime are great, great abilities.  There's all sorts of things you could do to push the Drachen forward just a little, and either Mv 5 or Gunfighter would be solid.  The reposition is sketchy because you have a 0" range, meaning on the table you tend to have to walk into melee to take the knife action to disengage you.  At which point that's the end of your activation.  Mad Dog can cigar you, hand out injured, then double shotgun blast.  Actually, a 1" engagement range on the knife would also be a solid choice.  

[Ming]

1 hour ago, RisingPhoenix said:

4. What did we hire him for?  I think even in VS I'd rather spend ten soulstones and get Mad Dog Brackett.  Run and Gun and Life of Crime are great, great abilities.  There's all sorts of things you could do to push the Drachen forward just a little, and either Mv 5 or Gunfighter would be solid.  The reposition is sketchy because you have a 0" range, meaning on the table you tend to have to walk into melee to take the knife action to disengage you.  At which point that's the end of your activation.  Mad Dog can cigar you, hand out injured, then double shotgun blast.  Actually, a 1" engagement range on the knife would also be a solid choice.  

Move or Burn Action for starters. Terrain destruction etc. As you mentioned, he's Mv 4, so it won't be that simple to engage him. You have Emissary, Schill and Librarian for pushes just to get him out of engagement. And there's plenty of I've got your back. By the way, Student has it, too.

[Jesy Blue]

Is no one using Student of Conflict with Bandits to turn Drop It! into your own scheme markers, just me?

[CustosUmbra]

You know, I kind'a like Talos. He's the only Obliteration model that can bury just from the opposed duels and applies additional damage to the buried targets.

Like the Nothing Beast, he's quite resilient with his Terrifying with the added bonus of Armor+2. Yes, it can take a turn for him to get into the action, but when he does he gets his job done. 

[Zebo]

16 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Overall models that I think could use some tweaking up:

 

Benny Wolcomb: He's just not very good in either Hamlin or Parker.  Or anyone, really.  He needs to be better at generating rats if that's going to be his thing.   Or maybe make Rat Kings take one less rat to make in a 3" aura or something.  

Agree with Benny being disappointing. Maybe if Sack O' Rats also reduced the damage (discard a card to reduce damage by 1 and summon a Malifaux Rat) would become more interesting. But no mistakes, the real problem is his summoning engine. There's so many models cheaper than him that summon better than him (Forgotten Marshall, the pig farmers, Sammy...) that is simply ridiculous the amount of work needed to summon a few rats. 

Talos: He doesn't really do much.  He's a dumb robot.  7 wounds is really pathetic, he needs at least 8 or 9.  He trundles forward, he does a few attacks, then he dies.  

Still not tried Obliteration, but in the Guild forum you can find the same complaints about the Augmented crew. Armor +2 means life = cost -1, and although Talos has def 4 (unlike the most of Augmented models, who have the standard def 5), it also has terrifying, wich can be useless or really amazing. I don't think that Talos is fragile, although I would like to see a bit more of healing on himself (in-built in the hammer, I really would love to see "Steal Essence" to heal him, although he also could heal himself regarding of the models buried at the end of his activation, for example). 

Lazarus: Another dumb robot.  Why doesn't he have blasts anymore?  I get shockwave is the new hotness, but he just can't consistently put pain on a group of enemies.  In fact he can't really reliably do anything.  2/3/4 damage on a 9 stone model with nothing much else is unacceptable.  At least he has 8 wounds unlike Talos.  Like Talos, he's also overcosted and bad.  

Lazarus only needs to loose the Grit ability and gain Rapid Fire to be where it should be

Student of Conflict: Is beyond awful.  Thank you for listening to my TED talk.  She could use like 4 separate upgrades to be worth taking.  I could take a Dead Outlaw for 2 more stones to get Covetous Cravings, 3 out of keyword.  I'd probably pay 3 more for one in a Viks crew anyway, at least the dead outlaw is guaranteed not to die immediately.  Def 4/4 wounds is not much.

Mostly agree. 

Bishop: 9 stones a 9 wound model that has no defensive tech is really unbelievably hard sell.  And he's close range.  He'll get shot off the board vs most things, and beaters with armor can just get in his face and kill him.  

He's quite good valued here, tried him a couple of times with no specially outstanding performances, but not enough to have a contrasted opinion. 

Abomination/Desolation Engine: As useless as ever, now with even less reason to get them.  

Not played them since the beta, and then they used to be very well valued. 

Winged Plague: I honestly question if it'd be worth it at 3.  It dies to literally everything.  You can take Benny to turn it into a rat.  Or you could take two rats.  Two rats actually seems better.  This might be the worst scheme runner in the game.

Agree with you. 

Convict Gunslinger: He costs 8 stones.  Gee.  I could get Hans for that.  I get you want to not have a 5/6/7 pileup with Banditos, Dead Outlaws, and Convict Gunslingers, but Convict Gunslinger just ends up feeling like a 7 stone model that costs 8.

They feel to me like a 7.5ss model, I would lessen their damage to 2/3/4 and then reduce their cost to 7 or give them Rapid Fire and keep them as 8ss.

Drachen Trooper: Why is he movement 4?  Why?  Why?  Close range, movement 4, you can't even use his flamethrower in close range.  You can fix this so easily, give him Gunfighter, give him mv 5,  That's it, he'd be okay at that point.  

I don't think that Drachen Trooper needs to shoot in melee, although I'm really sure he should ignore cover, and it would not be OP to give back to him the Burnt to a Crisp trigger to remove scheme markers. 

 

The models I'm more experienced that needs a fix in my opinion are:

The Freikorps Scout, in no man's land too fragile to accomplish objectives and too slow to run away from danger. I would give them the "Create Trap' action with an in-built Reposition trigger. 

The Desperate Mercenary weak damage is too low for worth the discarded card needed to use Rapid Fire, turn their damage to 2/3/3 or something like that, they are also too fragile for their 4ss, and even slow. 

Von Schill needs back his pistol, throw that crappy rifle to the garbage. 

But the thing that needs more help are the upgrades. 

Soldier for hire should change This Will Fetch a High Price for the Bounty Hunter ability, and then give minions Ruthless (very thematic IMHO). 

Wanted criminal could lose Expert Thief (very situational) for something like giving the Pilfer trigger to their attacks, or maybe Disguised (what better for a wanted criminal that disguise itself to not being recognized?) 

[Drool_bucket]

Making Soldier for Hire grant Ruthless to minions is a wonderful switch.  It would go from an rarely to never selected upgrade to a situational pick that helps cover one of our weaknesses, a great place for an upgrade to be

[clockworkspide]

Are we sure we want to give Bounty Hunter to all models?  I'm not sure it's remotely situational at that point for most crews.

[touchdown]

On 2/3/2020 at 6:36 PM, RisingPhoenix said:

Student of Conflict: Is beyond awful.  Thank you for listening to my TED talk.  She could use like 4 separate upgrades to be worth taking.  I could take a Dead Outlaw for 2 more stones to get Covetous Cravings, 3 out of keyword.  I'd probably pay 3 more for one in a Viks crew anyway, at least the dead outlaw is guaranteed not to die immediately.  Def 4/4 wounds is not much.

She's a fast machine for Hans. In keyword efficient at that. One problem is mercenary doesn't need many more ap. Only remotely worth it for Vanessa or Taelor. Either needs a movement trick to keep up so you can spend 2 ap to give another model 1, defense like butterfly jump or quick getaway, or something like gains cover if a friendly model with greater sz is within 2"

[S4lt]

SoC is epic in a Zipp crew.

[RisingPhoenix]

3 minutes ago, S4lt said:

SoC is epic in a Zipp crew.

Did you know you can spend 7 stones and get a Dead Outlaw rather than 5 for a Student of Conflict?

[Zebo]

I think that the SoC may need a bit of help, she doesn't do enough in my games, and a bit of extra support could make her worthy. 

Maybe some trigger in Covetous Cravings, like Preparations, Mend, or any other helpful trigger. 

Maybe the Analyze Weakness attack would make of her a piece a bit more interesting (she could do something apart of giving fast to other models). 

Also, her mobility is an issue in a so mobile crew, and she use to be out of position in turn 3+. Maybe something like the You're Comin' with Me trigger on Covetous Cravings would make her fine. Or By your Side ability. 

Also, there's the survivability problem, having Def 4 and 4 Wd with no defensive skill is a model as easy to kill, even at her cost niche, that kill her is barely one activation of a similar-costed model, and there's little you can do. Having Manipulative wouldn't be so rare for her, although could be not enough (Innocent Bystander also sounds thematic). 

I'm not saying she should have everything I've said, but take one or two of those options could make her more interesting to play without being OP. 

 

[S4lt]

3 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Did you know you can spend 7 stones and get a Dead Outlaw rather than 5 for a Student of Conflict?

Yup. Student is a better anti schemer and easier to fit into a crew already tight on stones. 

I also run Outlaws in Zipp but the student tends to slot in more easily.

 

[Jesy Blue]

6 hours ago, Zebo said:

Maybe the Analyze Weakness attack would make of her a piece a bit more interesting (she could do something apart of giving fast to other models). 

Isn't having Analyse Weakness on a model that can ignore armor a redundancy in points?

Sure, other models get the armor piercing, but Mercenaries already have a  bunch of anti-armor, and you're building towards the synergy in Keyword.

[Adran]

26 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

Isn't having Analyse Weakness on a model that can ignore armor a redundancy in points?

Sure, other models get the armor piercing, but Mercenaries already have a  bunch of anti-armor, and you're building towards the synergy in Keyword.

It depends if you're looking at it in terms of pure efficiency for that model, or efficiency for the team.

After all it makes a fair amount of sense that a model that is able to ignore armour, is able to tell other people how to ignore it.  It might not be the reason you hire it very often, and it might not even get used in several games. And spending the AP of a 4 ss model to allow the whole crew to ignore it is probably going to work out better than that 1 attack from the student.

[Zebo]

5 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

Isn't having Analyse Weakness on a model that can ignore armor a redundancy in points?

Sure, other models get the armor piercing, but Mercenaries already have a  bunch of anti-armor, and you're building towards the synergy in Keyword.

With "A Bunch of anti-armor" You mean the Ronin and the SoC? 

Because while the Ronin are an awesome piece for the crew, you don't want them facing a model like Gracie, a Golem or the Peacekeeper. 

And having the SoC as anti-armor tech, with her laughable attack , damage and defenses is simply ridiculous. 

In my experience, Mercenaries struggle with models relying on armor, and Analyze Weakness could return some of the old killy flavour they had. 

[Da Git]

Analyse Weakness on the Student of Conflict would be awesome! One of the biggest complaints I keep hearing about the Viks is that they just bounce off so many things. 

Also, analysing things for weaknesses makes a whole lot of sense seeing as she's a "Student" of Conflict. 

[RisingPhoenix]

17 hours ago, S4lt said:

Yup. Student is a better anti schemer and easier to fit into a crew already tight on stones. 

I also run Outlaws in Zipp but the student tends to slot in more easily.

 

I guess if you need anti-scheming with Zipp and she doesn't die.  The Scavenger can also hand out fast and focused, and is some pretty nice anti-scheming as well.  

 

I like the Analyze Weakness idea.  Maybe that and Stealth?  Outcasts aren't too big on Stealth, at least one Stealth model would be nice, and it's a good way to at least force them to get out of position when they kill her.

 

For the Convict Gunslinger, I know Parker doesn't need much help, but with the state they're in I don't think they're a model that would be brought often.  I think Ruthless and like 1-2 more wounds would at least make them worth considering.  Or make them Versatile and Ruthless, that would probably be enough that some crews would bring them every now and then.

[Ming]

If you need Analyze Weakness, you can always hire the Obedient Wretch.