Stitched Together. Gamble your Life rework suggestions.

[Ogid]

8 hours ago, Kharnage said:

What if the 2/3/4 track had a trigger for swift action? You have to pass another simple duel, you by definition actually have to gamble something, and you had to get the suit in the first place. Armor hinders their damage more, but could still get quite a bit of raw damage with luck.

It could also be a way... the advantage of the 2/3/4 is that it reduce the big safe hit which is what feels more "unfair". This way however has way higher ramping damage potential than the one with the mele attack. It requires some luck and extra cards; but the damage may be huge in a LD heavy deck. This idea would also be worth to explore imo.

4 hours ago, ShinChan said:

KmI think that that damage track is too good for a summonable 6ss model that is not easy to kill. 

Sory to disagree, but 6ss with 6Wd, Df 6 and Armor +1 and two different ways of healing is too good (plus all the healing in keyword). A 9ss beater that would need easily 3 attacks to take him down, and let's keep in mind that the Dreamer will always have (statistically) a better topdeck than the enemy. 

First if all, the sentence saying that Dreamer need summonable damage is completely wrong. He has access in keyword or versatile to all of these minimum 3 damage beaters:

• Carver
• Lord Chompybits
• Teddy
• Hooded Rider

Counterpoints:

His damage track is good for a 6SS model, but just the min damage is outstanding. There are 2/4/5 damage tracks in 6SS minions (Coryphee, Paul Crocket, Monster Hunters and Pathfinders) and dangerous hitters in that range like Rabble Rissers that may attack 3 times and one of them with Focused. The gimmick of the stitched is being able to bypass some defenses the others can't as easily (high defenses, protected, terrifying, Df triggers...), however as @Fixxer stated above damage reduction, H2W (and healing) are effective and the range is a liability. Plus Stitcheds don't have the range or the utility of the above. Also let's not forget GYL may backfire and damage the Stitched.

His defensive stats are good, but his healing is very unreliable; it depends on using his stat 5 attack to kill something or hit something with a non built-in trigger or the engaged model failing a Wp duel (he has no Wp attacks nor Terrifying). An Insidious Madness is a much better tarpit, it has a stat 6 wp attack so each successful attack will heal it 1, 2 getting the trigger and it has Terrifying(11) so if the other player is careless may also end healing it. An stitched using high cards for defense (Fiendish Gamble) may withstand some attacks, but that's a win for the other player (high cards not used for gamble and low cards not removed from the deck).

The "good non minions" point could be done for every single summoner. Why Jorogumos are even needed when Asami has Ohaguro, Ama, Yasunori, the Lone Swordman, she has a 2/4/6 damage track and his totem power up when she dies? Not every option may be picked at the same time, variety is the spice of life! Dreamer's damage summon is the 6SS one, which has advantages and disadvantages. But there is a cool balance because lists with lots of powehouses (Henchman/Enforcers) will have less LD and stitcheds will work worse, and in crews without those powerhouses they will shine if the crew manage to survive until turn 3 or 4 without too many casualities.

 

Dreamer crew could have been designed differently, with a powerful 7-9SS minion doing the damage; however it's nice that not every keyword follow the same pattern. My point in this thread was trying to make him feel better but without removing his role of minion damage dealer of the crew... but they are just fine, the problem is players not understanding why is a 6SS model doing the bulk of minion damage in the keyword with a tactical action; funnily enough I'm sure there would be less complaints if instead of him we had a much more powerful 8-9SS minion with a 3/4/6 track as the minion damage dealer...

So maybe some of you are right and even if stitched is "fixed" watering down GYL, there will be still complains if the bulk of the damage is still coming form the 6SS minion and it could even cause other problems if his damage become more independent of GYL because they are summonables by Vasilisa in other crews... the "if ain't broke, don't fix it" is quite true.  But it's still being an interesting thread.

1 hour ago, CzaszkaA said:

I didn't notice Stitched as OP, dreamer crew has far more oppressive models (okay maybe not for 6 stones), but given relatively short range (six inches) opponents care more about keeping distance/ getting rid of stitched, what is drawing attention away from rest of the crew is doing. Fiendish gamble is once per activation so we're potentially talking about 4-5 high cards a game. Cards that you first have to remove first for some time, but honestly I don't see stitched attacking anyone turn 1, so effectively 3-4 cards. I usually take one stitched with dreamer crew and summon another rather when first one is killed than running two simultaneously (unless something went terribly wrong and I have bunch of severes out of deck).

Ty for clarifying. I agree with these, in fact is interesting Stitched has diminising returns outside of in the last turns of a LD heavy crew.

Each additional stitched will have a harder time getting a good card for gamble and will make harder to make the deck hot if they are removing high cards all the time. As you said, 1 stitched is welcome, 2 are fine but one of them may not having the top tier cards for safe gambles, 3 of them require an specific team or very bad luck.

For example, asuming 5 LD sources (15 cards) there are a 74% to get 1 king and a 31% to get more than 1 (and the 31% is in reality a bit less because it could be both in the same LD draw but I don't want to complicate it more). Settling up for a 12 or a 13 the probablities are 94% and 72%. For 11 or more 99% and 92% respectively. With 5 LDs is feasible getting a 13 and a 11-12 for 2 stitcheds (that's 12 SS doing a mean of 8 very safe damage per turn, a bit more if a severe is cheated/flipped) but that has the cost to reducing the number of cards per turn removed from the deck from 5 to 3 (so setting up a weaker deck for the crew not good enough to top decking GYL reliabily in late game).

12SS worth of beaters with decent support (focused and/or fast) may put out much more than 8-10 damage per turn and quite reliabily too. That's what I meant, the stitched feels OP when they unload that safe damage, but taking the big picture of the game and the keyword they aren't that scary, specialy taking them in count and picking the right models. For example Minako (high defense, no damage reduction, rely in defensive triggers) will have a hard time versus them while a Samurai (Armor+2, Juggernaut, mele ignore armor, long range 2/4/6 damage track) will laught at them.

[Regelridderen]

Also take into account, that the whole gamble your life-thing works counter to Lucid Dream'ing, as you need LD to remove high cards for GYL to work – otherwise you're limited to using it to rescue accidentally removed high cards.

Daydreams and Alps rely on a steady stream of moderates/severes coming their way in order to do damage or even just hit, and they won't get those if the Stitched are running their own game.

-

IF they were to ne 'nerf'ed, I like the idea of reducing their Mv, and have them be a little more reliant on Daydream pushes to keep up with the rest of the crew – however that reduction would also exclude them from joining any other crew at 7 stones.

[Math Mathonwy]

17 hours ago, Fixxer said:

 I only respectfully disagree because I feel like the only people that feel the NPE from Stitched are newer players or sore losers. Stitched arent hired OOK from what I understand and I dont tend to see 3 hired to start a game every time.. This is proof that they're not OP nor do they need a change. 

Why is that proof?

Malifaux has a long tradition of models that aren't problematic as hires but are extremely problematic as summons. Heck, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the very first nerf in M1e after release fixed just such a case! A more recent example (that some of you youngsters might remember instead of just us old farts) was Nicodem at the tail end of M2e where the problem was caused by Summoned Kentauroi and Hangeds neither of which was any problem as hires.

Further, I would argue that not being hired OOK is not  at all valid as proof of non-OPness due to the emphasis on synergies that has been an integral part of M3's design ethos, in general. Once the erratas start hitting, I would be absolutely amazed if they only hit models commonly hired OOK.

[ShinChan]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

Counterpoints:

His damage track is good for a 6SS model, but just the min damage is outstanding. There are 2/4/5 damage tracks in 6SS minions (Coryphee, Paul Crocket, Monster Hunters and Pathfinders) and dangerous hitters in that range like Rabble Rissers that may attack 3 times and one of them with Focused. The gimmick of the stitched is being able to bypass some defenses the others can't as easily (high defenses, protected, terrifying, Df triggers...), however as @Fixxer stated above damage reduction, H2W (and healing) are effective and the range is a liability. Plus Stitcheds don't have the range or the utility of the above. Also let's not forget GYL may backfire and damage the Stitched.

Paul Crocket is not a minion. Like you said, against all of those models, the standard protection abilities work. There are some that also apply for Stitched (like Armor and HtW), but those also apply for the others too.

Also let's not forget that you can always bring back more Stitched.

His defensive stats are good, but his healing is very unreliable; it depends on using his stat 5 attack to kill something or hit something with a non built-in trigger or the engaged model failing a Wp duel (he has no Wp attacks nor Terrifying).

Yes, is unreliable, but it has a trigger in his attack, Feed on Fear and Eat Your Fill. In case that is not enough, there are models in keyword that are good at healing (Dreamer and Serena Bowman). The Feed on Fear, doesn't have to come from him, so that's not unreliable. If that's not enough healing, I really don't know what do you expect...

An Insidious Madness is a much better tarpit, it has a stat 6 wp attack so each successful attack will heal it 1, 2 getting the trigger and it has Terrifying(11) so if the other player is careless may also end healing it. An stitched using high cards for defense (Fiendish Gamble) may withstand some attacks, but that's a win for the other player (high cards not used for gamble and low cards not removed from the deck).

Insidious Madness is an Enforcer and you can't summon it, so there is no point in compare them.

The "good non minions" point could be done for every single summoner. Why Jorogumos are even needed when Asami has Ohaguro, Ama, Yasunori, the Lone Swordman, she has a 2/4/6 damage track and his totem power up when she dies? Not every option may be picked at the same time, variety is the spice of life! Dreamer's damage summon is the 6SS one, which has advantages and disadvantages. But there is a cool balance because lists with lots of powehouses (Henchman/Enforcers) will have less LD and stitcheds will work worse, and in crews without those powerhouses they will shine if the crew manage to survive until turn 3 or 4 without too many casualities.

You were implying that the crew really needs the damage from the Stitched. I proved you that between in-keyword and versatile models, the crew already has a lot of damage.

Dreamer crew could have been designed differently, with a powerful 7-9SS minion doing the damage; however it's nice that not every keyword follow the same pattern. My point in this thread was trying to make him feel better but without removing his role of minion damage dealer of the crew... but they are just fine, the problem is players not understanding why is a 6SS model doing the bulk of minion damage in the keyword with a tactical action; funnily enough I'm sure there would be less complaints if instead of him we had a much more powerful 8-9SS minion with a 3/4/6 track as the minion damage dealer...

If there is a minion that cost 7-8ss and has 3/4/6 I don't know about it. I'll be happy if he costed 9ss, +2Wd and damage track of 3/4/6 with Stat 6. At least a 13 would be needed to summon them.But that kind of attack would make Gamble Your Life Pointless.

So maybe some of you are right and even if stitched is "fixed" watering down GYL, there will be still complains if the bulk of the damage is still coming form the 6SS minion and it could even cause other problems if his damage become more independent of GYL because they are summonables by Vasilisa in other crews... the "if ain't broke, don't fix it" is quite true.  But it's still being an interesting thread.

Each additional stitched will have a harder time getting a good card for gamble and will make harder to make the deck hot if they are removing high cards all the time. As you said, 1 stitched is welcome, 2 are fine but one of them may not having the top tier cards for safe gambles, 3 of them require an specific team or very bad luck.

Even with only 2 Stitched (usually what I've seen is 1-2 hired or 1 hired and 1 summoned in first turn) is enough. There are many options for cheap lucid dreams that will help a lot the efficiency.

My main complain is that with Df6, Armor +1, the healing and let's not forget the Poison +1 every time you hurt them in melee they're too resilient, specially when they're just gonna come back. Let's remember once again that the later in the game, the better your top-deck flipping, so the more difficult to actually hit them.

Some of you said that they're easy to kill if an enemy beater (at least 2ss more expensive than them I imagine) can take them down in 2-3 actions with focus. So, if the beater is busy with that, who is taking care of all the other big beaters that the keyword has?

And I would like to remember that, even if you don't have the card to use Fiendish Gamble, you're deck is always going to be better than your enemy's, you won with a tie (even if it's a 1), you don't necessary need a high card to win and you get to cycle a card even if you lost.

So, as I said before, in my opinion there are some possible "solutions" (and I want to say again, that right now I think that a nerf shouldn't happen to any model):

• Make them easier to kill (-1 Df): There are going to come back, so at least you don't have to spend that much resources to kill them. They already going to have better flips anyway.
• Make the GYL more difficult to happen (TN +2 and no printed trigger): So at least not the 75% of the flipped card (more after some lucid dreams) are going to work and maybe the Dreamer will have to use a card from his hand.
• Reduce the damage to 2/3/4: Since the "attack" already avoids most of the defensive pieces and you have the option to "cheat" (your opponent doesn't), at least tune down the damage track. It could have critical strike, and even have it printed instead of the tome. So at least it could be toned down with stunned.

[Kharnage]

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

Insidious Madness is an Enforcer and you can't summon it, so there is no point in compare them.

Nah, they're minions, and one of his best summons, pound for pound.

[Fixxer]

2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Why is that proof?

Malifaux has a long tradition of models that aren't problematic as hires but are extremely problematic as summons. Heck, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the very first nerf in M1e after release fixed just such a case! A more recent example (that some of you youngsters might remember instead of just us old farts) was Nicodem at the tail end of M2e where the problem was caused by Summoned Kentauroi and Hangeds neither of which was any problem as hires.

Further, I would argue that not being hired OOK is not  at all valid as proof of non-OPness due to the emphasis on synergies that has been an integral part of M3's design ethos, in general. Once the erratas start hitting, I would be absolutely amazed if they only hit models commonly hired OOK.

Because its my opinion dude, thats what we do here. I thought.  

If you are comparing summoning stitched togethers in 3E which is once per turn, and buried needing a WP fail before they come into play VS Nicodem's summoning in the end of 2E then I dont know what to tell you. The power level between the two are so far apart, Its ridiculous.    There are many universal rules that have changed since 1E and 2E, like summoning once per turn etc... Also, the KW system is great and does provide us data on whats being taken at +1ss which can be a clear indication of power level and models that excel outside of the design ethos. I see those as more likely candidates for Erratas, not carefully designed models that fill a clear and defined role in a KW. 
   

I just dont see Stitched needing a change or a nerf to appease players that arent on the level yet... Its that simple, hence my participation in this thread. Without stitched together Dreamer's bubble becomes WAY more vulnerable  which makes him an easier master to win VS if you're aggressive early and hire the correct models. With certain Df/Wp triggers that exist in the game, there would be counter picks that could go right in there and mess his entire game up. Stitched are model that discourage that sort of approach when used properly. 

They have a great tactical attack that can do a lot of controlled damage if set up properly. That set up is information out in the open for my opponent. If they see me pull a 13 and go after my stitched without knowing that thing is coming out, thats on them. If they see me use the high card, or NOT pull any high cards,  or whatever, they can react or attack accordingly. Thats my whole attitude on stitched is that its a telegraphed assault that takes multiple layers of set up which gives ample time to react. If you're just running willy nilly into stitched and getting killed because of it, then thats a YOU problem. A lot of models like that in this game.

They also dont target WP at all, which is the MAIN thing a Nightmare crew needs. ANother thing Dreamers crew requires is the ability to bring back high cards that get pulled out of the deck. LD doesnt always give you a perfect set of 3 cards to choose from. I've pulled RJ, 13,12 before and it doesnt feel good. W/O fiendish gamble, is that just a loss? Do we Dreamer players even use LD anymore if thats the case? Gotta think about these things too. 

IF they absolutely need to change stitched because of community "outrage", then I'd suggest -1 Movement. Make them even slower and tougher to get into position and solidify their role as bodyguards/discouragement for going right into Dreamers bubble but minimizes their ability to go GET something. 

 

 

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

Paul Crocket is not a minion. Like you said, against all of those models, the standard protection abilities work. There are some that also apply for Stitched (like Armor and HtW), but those also apply for the others too.

Also let's not forget that you can always bring back more Stitched.

Honestly, only considering the models, not the keywords (as I said Fiendish Gamble is really needed to get high cards back in the deck imo). I'd trade Stitcheds for Coryphees hand down. They don't pierce that many defenses but are dangerous enough, top notch schemers (something the Dreamer struggle) and may create a Coryphee duet to gain 4 APs per turn and attack stat 7 (and that could be 6 Aps including Candy or Zoraida).

It's true they can be summoned back, but Dreamer can only summon 1 per turn (the same rate than other more expensive summons beaters). Vasilisa/WW may summon more but they need scrap/kills and that's a lot of points dedicated to summon low mobility 6SS models (that as said above loses value from the Fiedish gamble is there are too many). In other crews with that many points dedicated to summoning/shenanigans you can generate big fat pigs or Mature Nephillims while pulsing a lot of Focused for the entire crew.

2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Further, I would argue that not being hired OOK is not  at all valid as proof of non-OPness due to the emphasis on synergies that has been an integral part of M3's design ethos, in general. Once the erratas start hitting, I would be absolutely amazed if they only hit models commonly hired OOK.

While this is a fair point, it points that the model isn't that good to be included in every circunstance. An in Stitched case, not even not paying the tax. NVB has several ways to include cheap OOK stitched in other crews and I don't see players going wildly out of the standard builds to bring them:

• Dreamer OOK costs 13SS, he can be hired and in turn 2 you got 2 Stitcheds (OOK cost 14SS).
• Vasilisa plus a few dolls: Turn 1 move a doll forward, one shot it charging with a min 3 beater, summon an stitched with Vasilisa (net cost 3SS for that stitched)

An are they in Nightmare that much of a problem? If they were that OP, the minion heavy lists would be the meta, but Dreamer players use a lot of Henchman/Enforcers and some OOK picks. It's a model that works very well in his keyword, but it doesn't seem like all gravitates around them.

1 Stitched is mandatory for him to be able to compensate bad LDs, more than that is player preference; however having the option to adapt and summon several stitched, pull several severe cards (compromising the late game hot deck) for more punch if the crew is struggling seems good game design.

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

You were implying that the crew really needs the damage from the Stitched. I proved you that between in-keyword and versatile models, the crew already has a lot of damage.

Not exactly. I'm saying the crew has different playstiles and that gutting Stitched damage nerf one of the styles that it's not even doing that well (LD heavy). If Stitched damage is nerfed, then Dreamer will have to rely more in his enforcers/henchmans/OOK and he would be the only summoner not able to summon damage when it's needed.

The Dreamer is a good master, but it's not doing better than other top dogs, so there is no reason to preemptively nerf him because stitched feels bad. Nightmare would survive that nerf of course, but I don't see a reason to limit his options if he is not overperforming. If he become Shenlong tier, then sure, review the keyword and adjust what needed.

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

My main complain is that with Df6, Armor +1, the healing and let's not forget the Poison +1 every time you hurt them in melee they're too resilient, specially when they're just gonna come back. Let's remember once again that the later in the game, the better your top-deck flipping, so the more difficult to actually hit them.

Some of you said that they're easy to kill if an enemy beater (at least 2ss more expensive than them I imagine) can take them down in 2-3 actions with focus. So, if the beater is busy with that, who is taking care of all the other big beaters that the keyword has?

This is why it's important attacking them with the right tools:

• Long range attacks: Stitched move + GYL is 11'', his charge+engagement range is 6''. Any 12'' gun or higher may unload on them safely and the poison won't matter.
• Focused attacks and good damage tracks: Some top notch models may one shot him, any decent beater with at least Focused+1 may kill a Stitched in 1 activation.
• Or as said above, bring models more resistant to his shenanigans (Armor, sustain, healing and H2W) and just ignore them while handle the other threats/scheme.

Spamming low damage attacks that get reduced to 1 while taking a ton of Poison is not how this kind of models are handled. 

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

And I would like to remember that, even if you don't have the card to use Fiendish Gamble, you're deck is always going to be better than your enemy's, you won with a tie (even if it's a 1), you don't necessary need a high card to win and you get to cycle a card even if you lost.

Unless there is a high number of card removed top decking is risky. And it has a 6'' range, so most of the time the other player may dictate the engagements. If a vulnerable model (aka, low damage reduction and sustain) go into b2b with an stitched and get destroyed, that's a missplay from the other player, not stitched being awesome. Top decking is a bit more favoured for the stitched, but the Dreamer player is putting him out of positon and using his actions to probably damaging himself and leaving him open to get killed, that's an awful outcome.

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Fixxer said:

IF they absolutely need to change stitched because of community "outrage", then I'd suggest -1 Movement. Make them even slower and tougher to get into position and solidify their role as bodyguards/discouragement for going right into Dreamers bubble but minimizes their ability to go GET something. 

4 hours ago, Regelridderen said:

IF they were to ne 'nerf'ed, I like the idea of reducing their Mv, and have them be a little more reliant on Daydream pushes to keep up with the rest of the crew – however that reduction would also exclude them from joining any other crew at 7 stones.

Reducing the Mv to 4 is bigger than it looks. Mv4 models are usually really and I mean really tought or have long ranges to compensate that. Mobility is both an ofensive and a defensive tool, dictating where the fight happens or being able to outrun/chase is huge (it's also a nerf to his charge range and mele damage and also Mv is also a defensive stat versus some attacks). If they get reduced to Mv4 then something like Arcane Shield or H2W would be needed and I don't really think they need to be tankier or slower than they are right now, they aren't that dangerous to deserve Mv4 imo.

[Regelridderen]

@Ogid, I completely agree - hence the big IF. 

I can’t say, I’ve experienced Stitched as a problem. They’re great, but most keywords seem to offer something amazing, something dangerous, something enviable etc. - besides, I thought Shenlong was the thing to complain about these days. 

[Ogid]

23 minutes ago, Regelridderen said:

I thought Shenlong was the thing to complain about these days. 

Nah, even if they got nerfed to uselesness, Stitched (and Zoraida) would always have their share of "legacy" hate; it doesn't matter how many shenlongs or <add strong master that won the last big tournament here> are out there.

[santaclaws01]

19 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

Nightmare already has 2 min 3 models in Keyword, Chompy and Teddy, (With Dreamer himself and the Carver situationally min 3)

You're forgetting Coppelius(built in) and Insidious Madness(non-built in)

[Mycellanious]

7 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

You're forgetting Coppelius(built in) and Insidious Madness(non-built in)

I deliberately left out Madness because its not built in, but missed Coppelius. Tbh I think Nightmare may be the crew with the most min 3 models in the game. Chimera is probably a strong contender tho. 

[santaclaws01]

Just now, Mycellanious said:

I deliberately left out Madness because its not built in, but missed Coppelius. Tbh I think Nightmare may have the crew with the most min 3 models in the game. Chimera is probably a strong contender tho. 

Chimera only has 1 surprisingly enough.

If we're not including triggers then nightmare isn't anything special, if we are I would probably give it to some guild crew thanks to crit strike.

[Mycellanious]

1 minute ago, santaclaws01 said:

Chimera only has 1 surprisingly enough.

If we're not including triggers then nightmare isn't anything special, if we are I would probably give it to some guild crew thanks to crit strike.

I was including things like Posion from Myranda, the Scorpius, and the Rattler as well as the Grit from the Mauler and the Chimera Strike from Initiates.

[santaclaws01]

6 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

I was including things like Posion from Myranda, the Scorpius, and the Rattler as well as the Grit from the Mauler and the Chimera Strike from Initiates.

Ah, well then Nightmare will also have Bandersnatch and Widow Weaver thanks to poison. But conditions start to make things even messier as it's only extra damage some of the time.

[ShinChan]

I just wanted to add the numbers of Lucid Dream. After 10.000.000 simulations:

Preconditions:

• 6 Lucid Dreams each turn. Probably you'll start with 4-5 in turn 1, but after summoning in turns 2-3-4 it should compensate.
• 1 Stitched together bringing one card back each turn only if the card is bigger than 7. 

Your average flip at the beginning of each turn:

• T2: 7.45
• T3: 7.78
• T4: 8.08
• T5: 8.39

So starting at turn 4, your models will effectively have +1 at all duels (this is not exactly like that, but an approximation). With 2 Stitched together you can set aside a severe every turn just to use it with Gamble Your Life and still have the same benefits. 

Even if this doesn't sound impressive, wait until I get the percentage of severes in the deck...

[Sharp_GT]

I'm seeing a lot of theory-faux going on. I'm curious how many commentors are actually playing dreamer and specifically putting stitched on the table?

I'm a dreamer main myself, and I'll tell you that the stitched feel far from OP while using them. Sure, they solve a few specific problems and can feel like a sigh of relief every time you activate them under good conditions, but they are still very limited in some glaring ways:

1) what if you don't lucid dream good cards away? You just might not have any high cards set aside for the oogy boogy, in which case they don't do much

2) oh god what if you do!?! You're making your deck worse and removing cards that you desperately need for summoning and attacks

3) being able to use the removed cards on defense is a neat trick, but your removed-from-game pool is already stressed by having even one stitched in play, much less multiple, and now were putting even more strain on the above two issues.

4) and this is the big one: even under ideal circumstances you can only guaruntee ONE (x1, uno, un, eins) 3/4/5 attack which is honestly, ok at best compaired to other beaters

I love @Ogid ompairing them to the coryphee. Such an apt comparison. I would also love to have the dancing bots come visit an hgng out in place of the oogy boogy

[Mycellanious]

28 minutes ago, Sharp_GT said:

 

4) and this is the big one: even under ideal circumstances you can only guaruntee ONE (x1, uno, un, eins) 3/4/5 attack which is honestly, ok at best compaired to other beaters

But can you name any other beater that can GUARUNTEE an attack? I know plenty of beaters that can make multiple attacks, but I've also seen them whiff plenty of attacks. I've had Niel Henry miss 4 attacks against Abuela and Mei Feng miss 8 against a Watcher. That literally cannot happen to this 6ss minion.

[Fixxer]

40 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

But can you name any other beater that can GUARUNTEE an attack? I know plenty of beaters that can make multiple attacks, but I've also seen them whiff plenty of attacks. I've had Niel Henry miss 4 attacks against Abuela and Mei Feng miss 8 against a Watcher. That literally cannot happen to this 6ss minion.

 They can black joker or not flip the TN required to cast GYL... So, it literally can happen.

Cool anecdotal situations. Perhaps you didnt manage your control hand well enough in those combats, missing happens. A lot of why a stitched can do what it does is because the Dreamer player set it up. Kind of like how you save high cards to hit or use SS to get the triggers you want. This is a skill based game.  

1 hour ago, Sharp_GT said:

I'm seeing a lot of theory-faux going on. I'm curious how many commentors are actually playing dreamer and specifically putting stitched on the table?

 Me too. 

 

[Kharnage]

I've played into the dreamer a few times. I've even won games into the dreamer. I've won a tournament game where I was able to kill him turn 1 before he activated. The God Empress Nekima is one of his less favorable matchups, since we have the speed and plink damage to make Dreamer sweat early. That being said, it still doesn't feel great when a 6 stone model spends two severes, top decks one actual duel in which he has inherent advantage, and bags himself a full health mature. Summonable 6 stone models 1 rounding 10 stone models with no small amount of consistency, I find to be problematic. 

[Fixxer]

7 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

I've played into the dreamer a few times. I've even won games into the dreamer. I've won a tournament game where I was able to kill him turn 1 before he activated. The God Empress Nekima is one of his less favorable matchups, since we have the speed and plink damage to make Dreamer sweat early. That being said, it still doesn't feel great when a 6 stone model spends two severes, top decks one actual duel in which he has inherent advantage, and bags himself a full health mature. Summonable 6 stone models 1 rounding 10 stone models with no small amount of consistency, I find to be problematic. 

How else do you deal with Matures when they have combat finesse? YOu admittedly bring 2 that ignore black jokers... Dreamers gotta have something to combat that mess. Plus you have the perfect counter to Dreamer in that crew with a Mv 6 flying master with BB and 2" reach... 

And thats another corner case anecdotal situation. He won one GYL by using Fiendish gamble and got lucky on the other, plus got lucky to get two severe damages. Its not gonna go down like that consistently as you make it seem. 

 

Guess what? I've lost multiple stitched in a single activation too. I've also lost a 10ss model to a 6ss model before, it happens. Nephilim dont have damage reduction in their crew and eat whatever damage they take for a reason. But, they get to fly, have BB, and regenerate... see, its all about balancing these things and learning how to attack weaknesses while protecting your own. 

Stitched are great 6ss models, have weakness, but are ultimately well designed models for the nightmare keyword as a whole. 

 

[Mycellanious]

39 minutes ago, Fixxer said:

 They can black joker or not flip the TN required to cast GYL... So, it literally can happen.

Cool anecdotal situations. Perhaps you didnt manage your control hand well enough in those combats, missing happens. A lot of why a stitched can do what it does is because the Dreamer player set it up. Kind of like how you save high cards to hit or use SS to get the triggers you want. This is a skill based game.  

 Me too. 

 

This is literally untrue because of Fiendish Gamble, allowing you to use a card instead of flipping. But even then it is a an Action that requires a 4 to go off in a Dreamer crew. Nearly all weak cards are removed by turn 3. 

[Ogid]

5 hours ago, ShinChan said:

Your average flip at the beginning of each turn:

• T2: 7.45
• T3: 7.78
• T4: 8.08
• T5: 8.39

So starting at turn 4, your models will effectively have +1 at all duels (this is not exactly like that, but an approximation). With 2 Stitched together you can set aside a severe every turn just to use it with Gamble Your Life and still have the same benefits. 

Ty for calculating it. As you said one of the big advantages of LD is the weak card cleaning; that really help to ramp up the damage in late game.

However for duels for example Chi give an average of 9 from turn 1 and BBB may also get stupid levels of hotteness regardless of the turn while also giving card draw (especially when obeys are included). Dreamer have to built his deck from turn 1 and if an agressive player kill his models too fast he loses a lot of momentum. Unless going LD heavy and not having too many casualties, dreamer won't have a ultra hot deck.

4 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

But can you name any other beater that can GUARUNTEE an attack? I know plenty of beaters that can make multiple attacks, but I've also seen them whiff plenty of attacks. I've had Niel Henry miss 4 attacks against Abuela and Mei Feng miss 8 against a Watcher. That literally cannot happen to this 6ss minion.

The damage with a 12 or a 13 removed is quite safe, that's true. But it has a hard time ramping it up and it has other trade off already comented in the thread (weaker deck late game, low range, can damage himself, much more taxing using more than 1 stitched...). With Focused or a good card in the hand a lot of beaters may have very good chances, and with much better ways to ramp up damage and less side-efects and offer more than an stitched.

3 hours ago, Kharnage said:

I've played into the dreamer a few times. I've even won games into the dreamer. I've won a tournament game where I was able to kill him turn 1 before he activated. The God Empress Nekima is one of his less favorable matchups, since we have the speed and plink damage to make Dreamer sweat early. That being said, it still doesn't feel great when a 6 stone model spends two severes, top decks one actual duel in which he has inherent advantage, and bags himself a full health mature. Summonable 6 stone models 1 rounding 10 stone models with no small amount of consistency, I find to be problematic.

Sounds fine to me, you wreck him sometimes and sometimes you get wrecked; that's how it should work. Stitched are decent versus Nephillims as they have no damage reduction and bypass Combat Finesse, but Nephs also have regen and may heal well with corpses so unless an extreme scenario like that happens, Nephs have ways to patch up. 

Also it's important to note the difference in the ranges. An stitched needs a model in 6'' to be able to try double GYL, a mature have a Fly with me + charge range of 14''. Stitcheds are a good area denial piece but Nephs dictate where the fight happens; and then it's Nekima. She, with IR and Focused (easy access in keyword thanks to BBS), may one shot Stitcheds with a Severe hit plus blade rush damage or Blood for Blood (or with a Moderate and both BfB and Blade Rush). In a christmasland scenario she could even one shot 2 of them with only 1 action (Shove Aside) if she manages to get 2 severes, applying Blade Rush to one and BfB to the other (that would require or Focused+2 or crazy luck, but it's doable).

The 6SS part is probably what ticks off so many players, if that would come from a 8SS model I'm sure there would be less complains; but asimetric crews designs are good to have; and a 8SS model in that minion damage role wouldn't be that easy to one shoot and would have more nasty tricks.

[Sharp_GT]

6 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

But can you name any other beater that can GUARUNTEE an attack?

Literally any model with stat 6 and a 13 in hand. Keep in mind the opposing model can just top-deck a higher card than you FG in, and you have to have a good card removed. It seems like everyone who thinks the stitched are OP assumes the dreamer player will always have a 13 removed.

4 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

This is literally untrue because of Fiendish Gamble, allowing you to use a card instead of flipping.

If you FG a card for the Tn you can't use it for the important flip that follows.

5 hours ago, Kharnage said:

...That being said, it still doesn't feel great when a 6 stone model spends two severes, top decks one actual duel in which he has inherent advantage, and bags himself a full health mature. Summonable 6 stone models 1 rounding 10 stone models with no small amount of consistency, I find to be problematic. 

wait wait, I'm trying to figure out how a single stitched together killed a full health mature neph in one round.....

[ShinChan]

30 minutes ago, Sharp_GT said:

Literally any model with stat 6 and a 13 in hand. Keep in mind the opposing model can just top-deck a higher card than you FG in, and you have to have a good card removed. It seems like everyone who thinks the stitched are OP assumes the dreamer player will always have a 13 removed.

If you FG a card for the Tn you can't use it for the important flip that follows.

wait wait, I'm trying to figure out how a single stitched together killed a full health mature neph in one round.....

It's just winning 2 Gamble your life and use a 11-13 from hand or from the removed cards. Let's remember again that you have more chances than the enemy of winning the topdecking flip (between Lucid Dream and winning the tie)