Is Archie the bees knees?

[Ogid]

33 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

It would be evidence of Archie being overtuned if you could also prove that those crews also win more than they should. If they don't it can just mean that player perception of Archie is overly positive or there are no viable alternatives within the faction. Most likely it's some combination of the three.

Yeah, I'm sure all those players are picking the model because the sculpt is gorgeus .

Now seriously, having models appearing in every list isn't something good, make the lists repetitive and boring (to both play and face) and reduce the competitive options. These kind of models needs to be put in line or if these are fine and the problem is having awful alternatives, then other models should be buffed.

The problem is now the cards are printed, these changes are more cumbersome than in a beta...

[Myyrä]

1 minute ago, Ogid said:

The problem is now the cards are printed, these changes are more cumbersome than in a beta...

This is why you shouldn't make people test 500 models at the same time.

[Mycellanious]

38 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

Popular decisions are not always good and good decisions are not always popular. That's why decisions should be based on evidence. That includes any decisions about nerfing Archie. Sometimes getting good evidence is hard.

But you still havent explained what would convince you that the model ought to be nerfed. What kind of evidence would it take? How could we obtain it? It feels like you cannot be convinced and when I asked for clarification the question was just kind of dodged.

As you say yourself decisions should be based on evidence. Claiming that Archie is fine because you like him and that all the other henchmen should be buffed because Archie is better is an insubstantiated claim, and quite honestly a bit hypocritcal. 

The evidence we have of Archie being too good is that he is picked OOK more frequently than any other model, he a suggested addition to every Resser list regardless of strat, scheme, keyword, or matchup, and that players are reporting that he is dominating in game. 

To put it another way, in what scenarios would you consider not including Archie in your list?

[Ogid]

27 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

This is why you shouldn't make people test 500 models at the same time.

To be fair, the game is playable and the overall balance seem fine... but it's impossible to have everything perfectly balanced, players will always find the most broken stuff and will play it furiously XDD. We would be talking about any other model right now if Archie would be considered garbage tier.

However, the high quality cards this game has are a double edged sword imo. They are really nice and help a lot when playing, but at the same time make it really hard to change stats and abilities...

I like a lot how Infinity deal with it, they have no cards with the stats printed but a database; when you make a list a printable version of your list appear and then you print that and go to play with it. These list aren't as good looking as Malifaux cards, but are very very handy to keep the game balanced and it's very convenient because when you make a list you'll get all updates profiles instantly.

For the curious ones: https://army.infinitythegame.com/

 

[Fetid Strumpet]

We’ll have to agree to disagree on Asura. I don’t find her bad per say but I don’t find her exceptional in anyway. And I dislike how expensive she is both in possible upgrades, usage of stones for summoning, and the amount of pass tokens she gives to the opponent. 

If she works for you, awesome, but I personally would steer players away from her except in Nicodem and possibly Reva lists.

[Myyrä]

13 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

But you still havent explained what would convince you that the model ought to be nerfed. What kind of evidence would it take? How could we obtain it? It feels like you cannot be convinced and when I asked for clarification the question was just kind of dodged.

Whether Archie should be nerfed depends on where the developers want to set the target for model power. If you have a baseline you can use for example computer simulations to analyze the damage and durability against that baseline.

13 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

As you say yourself decisions should be based on evidence. Claiming that Archie is fine because you like him and that all the other henchmen should be buffed because Archie is better is an insubstantiated claim, and quite honestly a bit hypocritcal. 

I never claimed Archie was fine or that I liked him. Don't go putting words in my mouth.

13 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

The evidence we have of Archie being too good is that he is picked OOK more frequently than any other model, he a suggested addition to every Resser list regardless of strat, scheme, keyword, or matchup, and that players are reporting that he is dominating in game. 

To put it another way, in what scenarios would you consider not including Archie in your list?

I can easily imagine scenarios, but explaining them takes way too much effort considering how little I actually care about this conversation. I have had about enough.

[Inryhk]

Well there is more to balancing a game than buffing or nerfing. For example some models could be introduced down the line that shift the perception of what is effective and how to build a crew. Maybe models that punish or specialize in fighting beaters like Archie. Or some utility that Archie does not have might become very valuable shifting focus to those less cost effective Henchmen. Or maybe everyone else will get a hat.

And even though it technically could be achieved with Malifaux App I very much like the cards. So the idea of using smarthpone app over physical object would sadden me. I still have flashbacks for having to put my strategies and schemes deck in my "Old Stuff" box

[Ogid]

19 minutes ago, Inryhk said:

Well there is more to balancing a game than buffing or nerfing. For example some models could be introduced down the line that shift the perception of what is effective and how to build a crew. Maybe models that punish or specialize in fighting beaters like Archie. Or some utility that Archie does not have might become very valuable shifting focus to those less cost effective Henchmen.

No please... that has a name, powercreep. I rather have some models hit hard with the nerf bat and a few other buffed than a few new and powerful models that outclase 90% of the roster. I have a difficult time picturing a model effective versus Archie and not being OP versus most other models.

21 minutes ago, Inryhk said:

Or maybe everyone else will get a hat.

This could work... 

21 minutes ago, Inryhk said:

And even though it technically could be achieved with Malifaux App I very much like the cards. So the idea of using smarthpone app over physical object would sadden me. I still have flashbacks for having to put my strategies and schemes deck in my "Old Stuff" box

That's the issue, sometimes the optimal solution and what people want are different things. So we'll have fancy cards... and Archie jumping around 

[Inryhk]

Quote

No please... that has a name, powercreep. I rather have some models hit hard with the nerf bat and a few other buffed than a few new and powerful models that outclase 90% of the roster. I have a difficult time picturing a model effective versus Archie and not being OP versus most other models.

That would obviously be doing balancing badly - I mean powercreep not nerfing or buffing. I didn't mean introducing more powerful models that could easily beat Archie and in turn outclass most other older models. I meant introducing models that suddenly make other values be more valuable  - brain over brawn sorta thing. Or making certain things be more beneficial like being able to debuff other models or have more conditions on you. Even a decent model with hard counter for things like self healing or too much movement for each faction could tip the scale. I'm not that versed in Malifaux tactics yet to come up with more concrete examples, but what I'm saying is there are many ways of approaching this situation (if this even is really a problem and not growing pains of new edition) without resulting to reprints or erratas for already established rules.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I'm curious how many people here have actually played with/against Archie.

I wonder if part of why Archie appears in every list is because... People SAY he should be in every list. A self-fulfilling prophecy.

People on the forums advise staying away from the henchmen. But I find this to be bad advice. Philip and the Nanny are useful in about 55% of games for me. I've started testing Toshiro OOK, and he seems insane. 3E is so fresh you only try what people tell you is the best option. A lot of the options haven't been tested.

1 hour ago, Mycellanious said:

But you still havent explained what would convince you that the model ought to be nerfed. What kind of evidence would it take? How could we obtain it? It feels like you cannot be convinced and when I asked for clarification the question was just kind of dodged.

....

To put it another way, in what scenarios would you consider not including Archie in your list?

What kind of evidence? Tournament data. If all the winning lists have Archie, he needs a nerf. If all the playable lists have Archie, but they're still not winning... Other models need a buff.

What scenarios would I not include Archie? None, Im a Molly player and he is the only beater I own. Similarly, I imagine that lots of people only buy one or two beaters. If you only own one beater, Archie is a pretty good choice. But there are scenarios where I wish I owned other models (Kirai and Goryo in particular).

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Inryhk said:

That would obviously be doing balancing badly - I mean powercreep not nerfing or buffing. I didn't mean introducing more powerful models that could easily beat Archie and in turn outclass most other older models. I meant introducing models that suddenly make other values be more valuable  - brain over brawn sorta thing. 

Don't forget the new Gaining Grounds will shift the meta. Archie is terrible at holding his ground. If the new strats and schemes are less mobility focused and more zone control focused, Archie could fall out of the meta.

[newsun]

It's just as likely that other models are undertuned or as pointed out don't fill the same role. I agree unless rezz are winning more than other factions by including Archie he's just very good at what he does.

People are often going to like a killy model in a model game. Especially when they can get all over to do it and be fairly survivable.

[Ogid]

1 hour ago, Inryhk said:

That would obviously be doing balancing badly - I mean powercreep not nerfing or buffing. I didn't mean introducing more powerful models that could easily beat Archie and in turn outclass most other older models. I meant introducing models that suddenly make other values be more valuable  - brain over brawn sorta thing. Or making certain things be more beneficial like being able to debuff other models or have more conditions on you. Even a decent model with hard counter for things like self healing or too much movement for each faction could tip the scale. I'm not that versed in Malifaux tactics yet to come up with more concrete examples, but what I'm saying is there are many ways of approaching this situation (if this even is really a problem and not growing pains of new edition) without resulting to reprints or erratas for already established rules.

Haha, I know you didn't mean that; the problem is Archie is very good in a lot of departments and there isn't a clear answer for what he does.

He has high mobility, pack a punch, has self healing and is immune to conditions... if you design a model able to reach him and kill him, that model would be even better killing other slower and squishier models; handling out an easy way to get powerful conditions (fast, focused) to every faction would shift the whole power balance, could make other models opressive and would put in a bad position to crews that right now rely on having more positive conditions than other crews; giving everyone anti-healing tech would put in a very bad position to other models (and keywords) that rely in self-healing mechanics... There is no way to introduce changes to "counter" him without creating a whole mess in the game.

If a model is overperforming, the obvious response is adjusting that model power level, not changing everything else until he is in line.

22 minutes ago, newsun said:

It's just as likely that other models are undertuned or as pointed out don't fill the same role. I agree unless rezz are winning more than other factions by including Archie he's just very good at what he does.

This is also something to consider, how is the faction doing overall. If they are doing just fine, an Archie nerf should come with compensatory buffs elsewhere.

Guild is a good example of this, the pale rider is a monster; but the faction isn't doing that well, so we just have to live with him and if he is ever touched, then buffs in most Guild keywords would be needed.

[Paddywhack]

8 hours ago, Myyrä said:

While Archie is definitely good, half the reason he's becoming overly popular is that there are no good alternatives.

That's my take too. He very cost effective and no-one else comes close to him.

I blame it on partly on loosing Izamu to TTs.   We don't have a lot of min3 models and they take away one of our better ones. RN is OK, but terribly fragile compared to Archie (and more SS). Anna is OK, but more expensive, Asura isn't the same type of model realistically (she's more support/scheme than beater), and Datsue lost any use outside of a Kirai crew. Valedictorian can be good, but relies on suits and focus to really get damage. Archie is just...easier and cheaper. 

[Paddywhack]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

What kind of evidence? Tournament data. If all the winning lists have Archie, he needs a nerf. If all the playable lists have Archie, but they're still not winning... Other models need a buff.

 

I've been looking for tourney data just out of interest, but the only things I can find online (Third Floor, etc.)  don't bother listing the faction... They are just listing the players and their win/loss ratio. The meta around here certainly don't hold Resurrs up as very competitive yet. 

Anyone have a tourny site that is collecting faction played? 

[Maniacal_cackle]

14 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

I've been looking for tourney data just out of interest, but the only things I can find online (Third Floor, etc.)  don't bother listing the faction... They are just listing the players and their win/loss ratio. The meta around here certainly don't hold Resurrs up as very competitive yet. 

Anyone have a tourny site that is collecting faction played? 

I've tried to find some data and no luck yet. Until we get some, we are flying blind a bit.

[Maniacal_cackle]

16 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

The meta around here certainly don't hold Resurrs up as very competitive yet. 

In my local meta, if Archie is played, the player fielding him wins about 60-80% of the time. So Archie FEELS very overpowered.

Of course, the one player that owns Archie (me) also wins about 60-80% of the time regardless of crew. So what feels overpowered in a single meta is often reflective of players rather than models.

[Paddywhack]

40 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Of course, the one player that owns Archie (me) also wins about 60-80% of the time regardless of crew. So what feels overpowered in a single meta is often reflective of players rather than models.

Right. My meta is small too and I am not the best player, so I can't necessarily base it on my playing. Maybe if I proxy Archie and start winning that will help  

[thewrathchilde]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I'm curious how many people here have actually played with/against Archie.

in the last tournament I played (5 round) he was only in my list in 2 games and in one of those I played Forgotten in the other I took him OOK.

 

in probably 5-6 games since then he has not been in my crew at all. He is a great hire for a number of crews in and out of keyword but there are also many crews where he doesn’t have a place or fit based on the synergy within the keyword. 

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I wonder if part of why Archie appears in every list is because... 

Part of it is probably armchair general hysterics from people that haven’t actually played him, played against him, or done so competitively.

Most tournaments don’t capture anything beyond Keyword at best so there obviously isn’t any tournament data to support changing him. in a tournament I would expect Forgotten players to main him 100%, Redchapel maybe 50/50..... Ancestor maybe 50/50 depending on the player. However in Experimental, Transmortis, or Urami I wouldn’t expect to see him at all. 

[Saduhem]

1 hour ago, thewrathchilde said:

In a tournament I would expect Forgotten players to main him 100%, Redchapel maybe 50/50..... Ancestor maybe 50/50 depending on the player. However in Experimental, Transmortis, or Urami I wouldn’t expect to see him at all. 

This has been the exact case for me. In some keywords I wouldn't take him even if I could hire him for 9. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Jack is pretty much the only master he doesn’t really have a place in, I personally feel. I use him to very large effect in all the others.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Jack is pretty much the only master he doesn’t really have a place in, I personally feel. I use him to very large effect in all the others.

Do you own all the options, though?

I'm going to use Archie in every ressers list at first, but that is partially so I can just buy core boxes and have a crew to field.

[Paddywhack]

2 hours ago, thewrathchilde said:

However in Experimental, Transmortis, or Urami I wouldn’t expect to see him at all. 

I could see him in all of those just because he doesn't need anything from the Keyword to work. It's one less model to worry about your Keyword supporting (and he can't gain Conditions, so Poison isn't even a worry). 

In Transmortis he can't get Fast, so that is probably the least useful, but he still can work on his own and allow VonSchtook to support other models instead. 

[thewrathchilde]

1 hour ago, Paddywhack said:

 

In Transmortis he can't get Fast, so that is probably the least useful, but he still can work on his own and allow VonSchtook to support other models instead. 

I just don’t find him as effective as other choices in multiple crews- in Transmortis I can’t push him, focus him, fast him, or drop the summon upgrade on him. 
 

in Urami no vengeance, no additional heals, no movement from Seishin or Datsue Ba...... etc

plus in a number of these other keywords I need what the other similar costed choices bring in terms of capabilities over what Archie provides. For example in the Urami I would rather have Datsue because he does more for the crew overall. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Datsue-ba is a she.

What is great about Archie is he is just pure value. It’s a beater and scheme runner that excels at both at a cut rate cost that doesn’t need to interact with the rest of the crew at all. If your crew has no spaces for out of keyword models because of how tightly the synergy is woven, that’s pretty much the only time he wouldn’t have a pretty strong chance of showing up, at least in my opinion. And Jack is the only crew, at least to me, that fits that bill.