Steamroller vs Hazardous terrain markers

[Da Git]

So if the Lucky Emissary uses Steamroller to push through some markers that count as Hazardous Terrain (think Pyre Markers, Pit Traps, etc), does it take the Hazardous effects or is the marker removed during the action so is no longer there to deal its effects? 

Cheers! 

[Kadeton]

The terrain rules aren't like model rules - they're not printed on the terrain's "stat card", since such a thing doesn't exist, and the Hazardous Terrain rules aren't "removed from the game" when the Marker is removed. The game rules don't care about whether the Hazardous terrain still exists after the action is resolved. All they care about is this:

Quote

After a model moves through or resolves one of its Actions while in Hazardous Terrain, it suffers the effects of the Hazardous Terrain after the current Action or Ability is resolved (to a maximum of once per Action or Ability).

Q: Did the Lucky Emissary move through or resolve an action while in Hazardous Terrain?
A: Yes.

That's the entire condition fulfilled. Therefore: After the current Action or Ability is resolved, the Lucky Emissary suffers whatever the effects of that Hazardous Terrain were.

[Da Git]

That's a bit confusing ... The interrupted bit has no relevance as pyres/pots/etc aren't impassible terrain.

It goes like this:

Emissary does Steamroller moves over a pyre.

(it's now moved through it which triggers hazardous)

It completes the action which involves removing all markers.

It would now take the effects of the Hazardous terrain which it suffered after it moved through the marker which is no longer on the board.

[Clement]

I'd argue that "interrupting" a push is actually a defined term, when the pushing model encounters impassable terrain (Pg 15).  So the only way for the emissary to be interupted by destructible terrain (and therefore remove it via that part of steamroller) is for that terrain to be impassable.

Since we're not talking about a destructible, hazardous, impassable terrain marker "interrupting" never happens and the push continues "through" the hazardous terrain, so the emissary feels the effect of it, then removes the marker at the end of the push (via Steamroller's final clause)

 

Edit: it would remove the marker THEN take damage/whatever from it.  Forgot the timing of the hazardous terrain effect.  Removing the marker doesn't mean it didn't go through it.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Clement
Minor timing error.

[solkan]

21 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

Page 37.

All markers the Emissary come in contact with are removed before the Action ends.  After the Action is over, there are no markers in play to cause the effects of Hazardous Terrain.

None of which changes the fact that the model moved through hazardous terrain.

In order for an effect, once put in to motion, to be cancelled before it is resolved, the rules have to specify such a thing happening.  For instance, the rules in Triggers which specify when triggers are cancelled because the involved parties are all dead.  Or the Aura rules which create the situation where it’s possible to escape due to the “as long as they stay inside” sentence.

 

[santaclaws01]

2 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

There's nothing "in motion" because Hazardous Terrain doesn't do anything until after an action is over. 

What Hazardous Terrain does is not a Trigger, or an Aura, or a Pulse, or an Ability, so it does not follow those rules.

After the Steamroller Action is resolved, there are no Hazardous Terrain Markers in play to do damage.  Things not on the table no longer have an affect on the game.

It's pretty black and white.

The timing point for the damage doesn't negate the fact that the effect has already been activated. Hazardous resolves immediately, but the damage doesn't happen until after resolving the action.

[Adran]

3 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

... but it doesn't resolve immediately.  It literally says after the current action resolves, two separate times even.  Immediately is never used.

The quote I used earlier tells you that if it was in hazardous terrain at any time during the resolve action it will have the effects of that terrain applied to it after the action is completed. So it's timing means you will track the effects that will apply before you reach the stage that you have removed the terrain. It isn't the case that you fully resolve the action and then look at the board state to see what happens next, we are told the effect is put into place as it happens to be resolved after the action is completed. 

[santaclaws01]

4 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

... but it doesn't resolve immediately.  It literally says after the current action resolves, two separate times even.  Immediately is never used.

Hazardous says "After a model moves through or resolves one of it's actions ..." That is the point at which hazardous terrain resolves it's affect. It then goes on to say that the damage it deals is delayed until after the action or ability fully resolves. If hazardous terrain was not supposed to start resolving until after any action or ability were fully resolved it would say "After resolving an action or ability..."

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Jesy Blue said:

I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing it the way you are from a pure timing standpoint.

The removal of the difficult terrain, the thing doing the damage, isn't there to do anything when the damage would have occurred. The timing is very specifically spelled out.

I can't understand how this is even being considered. I'm sorry, I really can't.

There are 2 timing points, the first is when the model does something that will cause the hazardous terrain to have an effect, and the second is when the effect happens. So the fact the marker is no longer on the table for the second point doesn't matter, it was there at the time to put the effect on the model. 

[santaclaws01]

3 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing it the way you are from a pure timing standpoint.

The removal of the difficult terrain, the thing doing the damage, isn't there to do anything when the damage would have occurred. The timing is very specifically spelled out.

I can't understand how this is even being considered. I'm sorry, I really can't.

If Mad Dog Brackett had a Pyre marker moved under him on the previous activation, then on his activation, the first thing his did was put his Blow It To Hell Marker down next to himself, the Pyre Marker would go away and he would take no damage at the end of the Action because there was no Pyre Marker anymore to do the damage.  It's the same thing.

This isn't a model that has some effect that when the effect goes away it's stopped then and there. This is a general game rule that is basically constantly being checked every time a model moves or starts to resolve an action. Then the game sees whether you have been affected by hazardous terrain or not and reacts accordingly. The game doesn't care if the hazardous hazardous terrain is there or not when it resolves the damage, just when it starts off the resolution of the effect.


As an aside, pyre markers aren't destructible, so Mad Dog can't remove them. Additionally, even if it worked the way you say, if there were multiple of the same type of hazardous markers up, even if by your reasoning the specific one that damaged you was removed all markers of the same name are treated as the same piece of terrain for hazardous terrain purposes so it would still exist as far as the game is concerned.

[solkan]

49 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

Where are these timing points listed?  Where is it saying these words you are putting down because the rulebook is saying otherwise, reguardless of how much sense it makes. 

The December Acolyte has an Action Analyze Weakness, with the effect (one of the remaining non-Condition on-going effects) :

Quote

Until the End Phase, all damage the target suffers ignores Armor and Shielded.

If the December Acolyte is killed after performing that action, does the effect end prematurely?  No, it doesn't.  Even if that was the last remaining December Acolyte in play.  Because the effect has specified how long it will remain in play.

A model that interacts with the Hazardous Terrain rules is in the same sort of situation.  Once the model has satisfied the conditions for the rules to apply, those rules apply when they say they will.

[Morgan Vening]

58 minutes ago, Da Git said:

So if the Lucky Emissary uses Steamroller to push through some markers that count as Hazardous Terrain (think Pyre Markers, Pit Traps, etc), does it take the Hazardous effects or is the marker removed during the action so is no longer there to deal its effects? 

Cheers! 

No effect (ie, unaffected by Hazardous traits), as far as I can tell.

Steamroller - Push this model 12" in any direction. If this Push is inturrepted by Destructible Terrain, that terrain is removed and the Push continues. If this Push is interrupted by Impassable Terrain, this model suffers 2 damage. Then, remove every Marker this model came into base contact with during this Push.

pg37, Hazardous Terrain's relevant bit.
"After a model moves through or resolves one of its Actions while in Hazardous Terrain, it suffers the effects of the Hazardous Terrain after the current Action or Ability is resolved (to a maximum of once per Action or Ability)."

pg15, Only reference in the rulebook to "interrupted"
"If a Pushed model encounters another model or Impassable Terrain during this movement, its movement is interrupted and stops.

It seems clear from context that "interrupted" happens before a model enters the terrain, on base contact, as other models and Impassable Terrain can't be entered. And Hazardous terrain requires more than base contact.

[Adran]

I Think Morgan is confusing his terrain types.

Page 23 Step 5 apply results say

"For instance if a model was in hazardous terrain during any part of the resolve actions process the effects of the hazardous terrain are applied to the model after the action resolve. "

 

The fact that the action removed the terrain doesn't matter from what I can tell, its set up a "stack" of the effect to happen, so the presence of  the terrain isn't needed.

[Jesy Blue]

Page 37.

Quote

Hazardous Terrain:  After a model moves through or resolves one of its Actions while in Hazardous Terrain, it suffers the effects of the Hazardous Terrain after the current Action or Ability is resolved (to a maximum of once per Action or Ability).

All markers the Emissary come in contact with are removed before the Action ends.  After the Action is over, there are no markers in play to cause the effects of Hazardous Terrain.

[Jesy Blue]

There's nothing "in motion" because Hazardous Terrain doesn't do anything until after an action is over. 

What Hazardous Terrain does is not a Trigger, or an Aura, or a Pulse, or an Ability, so it does not follow those rules.

After the Steamroller Action is resolved, there are no Hazardous Terrain Markers in play to do damage.  Things not on the table no longer have an affect on the game.

It's pretty black and white.

[Jesy Blue]

... but it doesn't resolve immediately.  It literally says after the current action resolves, two separate times even.  Immediately is never used.

[Jesy Blue]

I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing it the way you are from a pure timing standpoint.

The removal of the difficult terrain, the thing doing the damage, isn't there to do anything when the damage would have occurred. The timing is very specifically spelled out.

I can't understand how this is even being considered. I'm sorry, I really can't.

If Mad Dog Brackett had a Pyre marker moved under him on the previous activation, then on his activation, the first thing his did was put his Blow It To Hell Marker down next to himself, the Pyre Marker would go away and he would take no damage at the end of the Action because there was no Pyre Marker anymore to do the damage.  It's the same thing.

[Jesy Blue]

Where are these timing points listed?  Where is it saying these words you are putting down because the rulebook is saying otherwise, reguardless of how much sense it makes.  I get that it should take damage, narratively.  It's not taking damage logistically.

Another example:  If Ama No Zako had Miasma of Boils and Flies up, and a Katashiro kills it with Blade Rush, Katashiro does not take damage from the Hazardous Terrain that Ama No Zako was putting out because after the Blade Rush action is completed, Ama No Zako and the terrain she was creating no longer exist.

On the timing chart as written, Hazardous Terrain would affect in the Activation Phase at 2-f.; things are killed removed from the table, therefore have no affect on the game in 2-e.

 

PS:  Haven't faced Karis yet... I knew I should have just looked up what Titania's Markers were called!

[Jesy Blue]

Now one is saying it doesn't act like a model and one is saying it acts exactly like a model..... and I don't think either of them are relevant.

Honestly, were just spinning our wheels now and I've wasted 12 hours saying the same thing and it's starting to bore me.

I've said my piece and y'all don't agree; you've said your piece and I don't agree.

We'll just have to wait and see and be good sports about it, and hope we don't end up playing against each other until then.  Pray for the TO's!

Edited July 6, 2019 by Jesy Blue
where did all the othet responses go?

[Garthuk]

Came here hoping this was an answered issue.

It very much looks like the push is intended to destroy destructible terrain/markers before the model would enter the space it occupied (regardless of if it were hazardous), but it seems really unclear for the non-destructible hazardous markers that still get removed.

[solkan]

8 minutes ago, Garthuk said:

Came here hoping this was an answered issue.

It very much looks like the push is intended to destroy destructible terrain/markers before the model would enter the space it occupied (regardless of if it were hazardous), but it seems really unclear for the non-destructible hazardous markers that still get removed.

I think you're conflating "is intended to" and "I expected it would".  😕  The action does not say that destructible terrain markers are destroyed before the model would enter the space it occupied, except in the case where the model would be unable to enter the space occupied by the marker (an impassable marker).

More importantly, if you're going to make a claim like this:

14 minutes ago, Garthuk said:

push is intended to destroy destructible terrain/markers before the model would enter the space it occupied

which doesn't agree with how the action is specified, you're expected to supply evidence of intent.  Because the action says two things:

1.  If it is interrupted by Destructible terrain, destroy the terrain and continue.
   • By the rules, "If a Pushed model encounters another model or Impass- able Terrain during this movement, its movement is interrupted and stops."
2. All of the other markers are removed at the end of the push.

So by the rules, only Impassable Destructible terrain is going to interrupt the push, and get removed.  For everything else, it'll just push right on through without being interrupted.

If the authors wanted destructible terrain to be removed as the model moved into base contact with it, they could have said so, and didn't.

 

[Sol_Sorrowsong]

What Solkan said.  It just seems like it. It would be nicer for the bayou player if they got to smash things without a price, but RAW you can remove markers but at a price.  Hazardous is going to hurt, Destructable + impassable is going to hurt (suffer 2 damage for impassable -1 for armor per impassable)  So after a particularly successful 12" push, you could have a dead LE.

[Garthuk]

Apologies for the unsupported claim. However:

        Steamroller: Push this model 12" in any direction. If this Push is inturrepted by Destructible Terrain, that terrain is removed and the Push continues. If this Push is interrupted by Impassable Terrain, this model suffers 2 damage. Then, remove every Marker this model came into base contact with during this Push.

There is one clause each for destructible and impassable terrain, both including the word interrupted.

If impassable is the only terrain condition of the two that can interrupt, the first clause is redundant. The Push wouldn't be able to be interrupted by purely destructible terrain, and therefore never fulfill the requirement for it to be removed.

As for the timing of the terrain removal:

            "If a Pushed model encounters another model or Impassible Terrain during this movement, its movement is interrupted and stops."

When that rule resolves, the pushed model never enters the cause of the interruption but stops in base contact with it.

           "If this Push is interrupted by Destructible Terrain, that terrain is removed and the push continues."

Would that not all together translate to:

Declare Push, Interrupt Push(caused by destructible terrain), Remove Terrain, Continue Push

The model would not enter the destructible terrain but instead remove it then continue pushing.

 

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, Garthuk said:

Apologies for the unsupported claim. However:

        Steamroller: Push this model 12" in any direction. If this Push is inturrepted by Destructible Terrain, that terrain is removed and the Push continues. If this Push is interrupted by Impassable Terrain, this model suffers 2 damage. Then, remove every Marker this model came into base contact with during this Push.

There is one clause each for destructible and impassable terrain, both including the word interrupted.

If impassable is the only terrain condition of the two that can interrupt, the first clause is redundant. The Push wouldn't be able to be interrupted by purely destructible terrain, and therefore never fulfill the requirement for it to be removed.

 

No it's not, because a marker can be both destructible and impassable. Without that first clause the Emissary would steamroller into an Ice Pillar, take 2 damage and stop, then remove the ice pillar. Instead what it does is it gets interrupted by the ice pillar, removes it, takes 2 damage, then continues on.

 

2 hours ago, Garthuk said:

As for the timing of the terrain removal:

            "If a Pushed model encounters another model or Impassible Terrain during this movement, its movement is interrupted and stops."

When that rule resolves, the pushed model never enters the cause of the interruption but stops in base contact with it.

           "If this Push is interrupted by Destructible Terrain, that terrain is removed and the push continues."

Would that not all together translate to:

Declare Push, Interrupt Push(caused by destructible terrain), Remove Terrain, Continue Push

The model would not enter the destructible terrain but instead remove it then continue pushing.

What point are you trying to make here?

[Garthuk]

23 hours ago, solkan said:

So by the rules, only Impassable Destructible terrain is going to interrupt the push, and get removed.  For everything else, it'll just push right on through without being interrupted.

The action states: If this Push is interrupted by Destructible Terrain, that terrain is removed and the Push continues. If this Push is interrupted by Impassable Terrain, this model suffers 2 damage.

If the only terrain that would ever Interrupt is the combination of Impassable Destructible it could have very easily been worded:

"If this Push is interrupted by Impassable Destructible Terrain, that terrain is removed, this model suffers 2 damage, and the Push continues."

But it is not. There is first a clause for interruption from Destructible Terrain, then a clause for interruption from Impassable.

If the model were to Steamroll a Pit Trap Marker would it not remove that terrain and continue the Push?

 

As for the point I tried to make on terrain removal timing

On 12/28/2019 at 1:15 AM, solkan said:

If the authors wanted destructible terrain to be removed as the model moved into base contact with it, they could have said so, and didn't.

Interrupting stops a model at base contact. The interruption precedes the terrain removal, which precedes the Push continuing.

For example: The LE Steamrolls a Pit Trap Marker. It would Push to the terrain, interrupt here, remove the Destructible Terrain, then continue.

For the LE Steamrolls an Ice Pillar: It would Push to the terrain, interrupt here, remove the Destructible Terrain, suffer 2 damage, then continue.

[Ogid]

About the base to base issue:

Hazardous rules:

• Triggered by "Move throught" or "resolving actions while on it"; if the Hazardous is moved then "models the marker come into base contact" (pg 37)
• If the model "was in" (resolving action rules pg 23)

Push (pg 15)

• If a pushed model encounter other model or impassable terrain, it's movement is interrupted and stops (in base contact)

How "Move throught" and "be in" interact with reaching base to base but not overlap the marker (the interrupt case) is not defined. So there is no way to know if reaching base contact is "Moving Throught" or "be on it".

Until it's defined the safest bet (imo) is assume interrupting the movement is not enough to trigger Hazardous as it's not explicitly stated.

 

About Steamroller and Hazardous:

Steamroller

Quote

Steamroller - Push this model 12" in any direction. If this Push is inturrepted by Destructible Terrain, that terrain is removed and the Push continues. If this Push is interrupted by Impassable Terrain, this model suffers 2 damage. Then, remove every Marker this model came into base contact with during this Push.

• If there is any marker that are at the same time impassable AND hazardous, the above will need a clarification.
• Any other marker is removed after the movement, so the Emissary "move throught" all of them. Triggering Hazardous.

Hazardous:

Quote

After a model moves through or resolves one of its Actions while in Hazardous Terrain, it suffers the effects of the Hazardous Terrain after the current Action or Ability is resolved (to a maximum of once per Action or Ability).

The condition is this part:

• After a model moves through or resolves one of its Actions while in Hazardous Terrain

Which activates this effect:

• it suffers the effects of the Hazardous Terrain

That we are told to resolve at this timing and with the following restriction:

• after the current Action or Ability is resolved (to a maximum of once per Action or Ability).

There is no rule saying that if the marker is removed, this effect is cancelled. Compare it with False Claim for example.

Quote

"Drop two Scheme Markers within range. During the End Phase, remove a friendly Scheme Marker from play."

The "During the End Phase, remove a friendly Scheme Marker from play." is queued while we are resolving the ability in the same way the Hazardous effect is queued when a model moves throught it; both effect are delayed until we are told (after the current action or ability is resolved/ During the end phase).

At that point the presence or ausence of the model/marker is irrelevant because the effect is waiting to resolve. In the False Claim case, even if the model that used False Claim dies, it's owner still need to remove the marker.