Marcus M3E Tactics

[Ogid]

Ty, I have as simmilar impression about the initiates; the card draw is nice, some ocasional damage spike but not worth it in general...

1 hour ago, Nikodemus said:

Do enlighten us on the Rattler. I'm just not seeing what it does for 7ss when I compare it to my options in the 6-8ss range.

About the rattler; I do like it, it has some interesting features: 

• They are quite fast (mv6, unimpeded, pursuit and ambush); that's 19'' in one turn without any mutation.
• The poison kind of increase his damage track the first time they hit each turn and has synergy with the scorpius; so its damage isn't that bad.
• Df6 let them bully cheapish models with an attack stat of 5.
• Constriction + Wicked let them be a pain to disengage (bonus point reposition trigger and Deadly Pursuit)
• Bulky model (S3, 40mm), useful combined with the above point to block LoS.

They are good chasing cheapish and isolated 5-7 SS models with attack stat of 5 or lower, specially if these doesn't have any ability to disengage like leap. More situationaly Ambush let them double scheme (handy for breakthrough or Harness for example).

They are also nice keeping models engaged and acting like tarpits. Give them armor and throw them into the model(s) you wan't to waste AP (trying to get into b2b if possible) using one of the last activations of a turn; then use the first activation of the following turn with the Rattler attacking without moving to trigger the shielded. Df6, Armor+1 and Shielded+2 take some time to break. And his big Sz is useful to break LoS (handy for auras and the like)

Disengage shenanigans: To make an enemy waste 2 APs, If they are in b2b a Mv5 model hit by a moderate (easy with constriction) will still be engaged, then if it try to dissengage again, the second attack with wicked may get some damage done and with the is not hard to get good triggers (reposition to follow them or Tear off a Bite to keep it topped). At the end of the turn they will move 4'' so it's feasible ending the turn engaged with the model you want.

Disengage from then as stated above is hard, for take prisioner they are good.

The best mutation for it is Armored Plates (activating them early in the turn and using Deadly Pursuit and Reposition to keep the Shielded+2 up all the time). The other 2 useful but not mandatory are Serrated Teeth (wicked attack giving Adversary) or Wings (Flight and +1Mv helps engaging the model(s) it wants and BFJ is another way to reposition outside of its activation. It's also interesting to note that they combine very nicely with the Sabertooths mutation-wise because Rattlers don't really need Wings or Camouflage, and just those 2 really suit the big cat; so they don't compete for mutations.

Not ARC related but in NVB they could be very nice if Pandora is hired as a second Master because Poison will trigger Ping damage from her Misery aura (and it may trigger it again in the other player activation thanks to wicked). This will become much better if a Woe with Oportunistic (Poison) is ever released (so this won't require a double master).

 

TLDR: For scheming a Sabertooth or a Blessed are better, but the Rattler also does well there. As a cheap scheme hunter the Sabertooth is more killy but the Rattler may perform well enough and is harder to escape (unless there are disengage bypassing abilities). As a pure tarpit the bear is more resilient with H2W and Juggernaut, but the rattler is nimbler (so it can reach places the bear can't), can keep a model engaged very easily and has more tools to keep the Shielded active (and versus stat 5 models, it fend off quite well with the Df6). There is no better model to keep a model pinned than the Rattler and Wicked is useful to put pressure on them and inflict Adversary if they try to dissengage.

As said above the Rattler require some finesse and it overlaps some of its roles with other very good 8SS models, but it's a good model imo.

[Mycellanious]

1 hour ago, Nikodemus said:

 

Do enlighten us on the Rattler. I'm just not seeing what it does for 7ss when I compare it to my options in the 6-8ss range.

Its the kind of model that will score you points if left alone, but is very capable of handling smaller models so your opponent needs to send more stones to deal with it. But the Rattler is ALSO very good at handling high stone models. Whether its tying them up and wasting AP or simply out manovering them. It also helps that it carries Magical Training for me and I tend to put Armored Plates on it (depending on where my opponent deployed). It just consistantly handles models so well for me. Two games ago, it outmanovered Francisco, leaving him out of position for the game then Killed a Pistolero to score Reckoning, drew the Enslaved Nephilim over, and score Search the Ruins by itself (16 stones + 3 VP). In my last game, it killed the Grave Golem by itself (which had taken 3 dmg to move an idol), then scored me idols, then tied up Montressor for 2 turns before scoring Breakthrough with help from a Cerberus (19 stones + 2 VP, though it did only survive with 1 hp). And I DIDNT put Armored Plates on it for these games. 

[Mycellanious]

Also, I havent seen it said yet, but Tear Off a Bite isnt Enemy Only, so in a pinch you can eat the Jackolpe for some hp for the cost of a low ram. Its useful for the non beasts that need healing (since Myranda can only heal Beasts) so really just Marcus in a pinch

[KingCrow]

17 hours ago, Ogid said:

mmm, This is interesting. I didn't thought about this use for the Hoarcat. However, does it work better than a H2W model? With just 1 focused attack the hoarcat may be killed, and he has no built in healing.

The main way that I can think to stop a focused strike from killing the Hoarcat is to throw the Armor upgrade on the Hoarcat.  Also, Marcus shouldn't be getting charged with his Disguised upgrade so the enemy model has to use an AP to walk to get engaged.  Granted the enemy model could then charge the Hoarcat but then that relies upon you using proper positioning to try and keep the Hoarcat out of LoS, maybe putting the Disguised upgrade on it, ect. 

Just have to play it by ear.  Either way, you're forcing your opponent to play to your game rather than you play to theirs.  

 

I will admit that I havent played much with the Rattler, maybe just one or two games but didn't really get as much out of it as I expected.  Maybe I'll try it out a few more times.

While Cojo is strong, he isn't 10 point model strong.  Compared to the Fire or Rail Golem, he doesn't do nearly as much damage and is drastically squishier.  He strikes me as a 9 (8 would be stretching it) soulstone model that is being charged a stone for the Mutation upgrade tax. I honestly believe many of the Chimera models cost one (or even two for some models) more expensive than they should be compared to other models, but that's something I've always thought even during the beta.  

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, KingCrow said:

While Cojo is strong, he isn't 10 point model strong.  Compared to the Fire or Rail Golem, he doesn't do nearly as much damage and is drastically squishier.  He strikes me as a 9 (8 would be stretching it) soulstone model that is being charged a stone for the Mutation upgrade tax. I honestly believe many of the Chimera models cost one (or even two for some models) more expensive than they should be compared to other models, but that's something I've always thought even during the beta.

It's a different kind of strong, the big monkey isn't as good charging forward like golems. He is great repositioning allies/enemies and controling and area; it's more utility focused than 10SS beatsticks. However it may have some very neat damage output in the right circunstances (horns to use a double charge with , add Onslaught with Focused for maximum carnage), but that's not what he excel at and it's true he relies a lot in defensive mutations. I agree that with 10 Wds and at 9SS cost it would had been more affordable tho.

I have the same impression about Chimeras, most of them aren't good OOK picks (maybe Myranda, Scorpius or Vogel are); but it makes sense, mutations are very powerful so it's just a keyword that rely a lot in its synergies and have models balanced around that.

[diki]

I think if Toss was a melee action and therefore useable with cojo's frenzied charge and Marcus Call of the Wild he would be vastly more useful (and closer to 10ss cost). 

[Mycellanious]

6 hours ago, KingCrow said:

 

While Cojo is strong, he isn't 10 point model strong.  Compared to the Fire or Rail Golem, he doesn't do nearly as much damage and is drastically squishier.  He strikes me as a 9 (8 would be stretching it) soulstone model that is being charged a stone for the Mutation upgrade tax. I honestly believe many of the Chimera models cost one (or even two for some models) more expensive than they should be compared to other models, but that's something I've always thought even during the beta.  

Idk man, Cojo is like the best model to pair with Marcus. Hes definitely squishy, but hes also a nuclear warhead when it comes to Alpha Strike damage and is fantastic against models with Terrifying because of his WP 7 and the ability to easily achieve a Triple positive on the damage flip to get around HtW. I've had him 1 round Archie by himself. Where he really shines tho is the perfect vessel for Marcus to control. You keep Cojo in cover, move Marcus up, then bonus action Cojo foward (moving through Marcus) then comand Cojo to Charge, then Charge again, then Accomplice into Cojo, Charge again, Charge again, and its a tremendous amount of attacks and movement that your opppnent doesnt get to react to. 

[Ludvig]

@Mycellanious

I believe what you are referencing is exactly what King row meant by the mutation tax. Cojo in a non-Marcus arcanist crew doesn't seem worth his stones on his own merit. 

Your exanple seems to assume you play neverborn so you can add an upgrade to charge while engaged or that you kill on each hit. You are also using three master ap to apply the upgrade and make Cojo charge twice so the damage output should really be compared to a master and a beater taking a full turn each. I agree Cojo has play with Marcus. It's a bit of a weird balancing act since the leader and totem are free which means synergy is payed by the themed models. 

[Ogid]

44 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Your exanple seems to assume you play neverborn so you can add an upgrade to charge while engaged or that you kill on each hit. You are also using three master ap to apply the upgrade and make Cojo charge twice so the damage output should really be compared to a master and a beater taking a full turn each.

Holy s*** man! I have to start using that "kill on each hit" mutation, sounds quite good .

IR is very good with Chimeras. However the "Mobile Warrior" part is only applied to minions so a NVB player has to choose. IR in a minion is great because they can be comanded to charge even if engaged, but only once per activation. Cojo may charge several times but cannot charge while engaged and using IR is a bit tricky in a fat 50mm model with Mv5, the 2'' push helps tho.

However it can be combined, IR in a Rougarou (or beast shaped Myranda) and Cojo. If Cojo isn't tied, then he can be commanded to charge; if he is, the Rougarou can be commanded to charge the engaging model. Rougarou has the same base attack than Cojo (Ferocious  Claws), so he can push models to disengage Cojo and let Marcus use the rest of the charges in the big monkey.

[Mycellanious]

2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

@Mycellanious

I believe what you are referencing is exactly what King row meant by the mutation tax. Cojo in a non-Marcus arcanist crew doesn't seem worth his stones on his own merit. 

Your exanple seems to assume you play neverborn so you can add an upgrade to charge while engaged or that you kill on each hit. You are also using three master ap to apply the upgrade and make Cojo charge twice so the damage output should really be compared to a master and a beater taking a full turn each. I agree Cojo has play with Marcus. It's a bit of a weird balancing act since the leader and totem are free which means synergy is payed by the themed models. 

Nah I havent tried him NvB. But if Cojo hits he can push the attacker out of his engagement to charge again. And with his stat 6, stoning for cards, AR, and Marcus' card draw its very likely for me to succeed on my first attack. Also dont forget that Cojo can push models out of his engagement on his activation with a 4M

[Ludvig]

5 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

Nah I havent tried him NvB. But if Cojo hits he can push the attacker out of his engagement to charge again. And with his stat 6, stoning for cards, AR, and Marcus' card draw its very likely for me to succeed on my first attack. Also dont forget that Cojo can push models out of his engagement on his activation with a 4M

Holy shit, massive facepalm. I've played him like five times and never noticed the attack pushes the target. 😂Can't wait to try him with his actual rules. 

[Mycellanious]

1 minute ago, Ludvig said:

Holy shit, massive facepalm. I've played him like five times and never noticed the attack pushes the target. 😂Can't wait to try him with his actual rules. 

Tbh I only noticed last month myself lmao. I gotta try reading the cards more XD

[diki]

I always find 50mm base + 5" (even with 6" from wings) really doesn't get you very far if you want to trample past other models.

Also I really wish you could accomplice INTO Marcus. I find that the other way round is rarely what I need.

Marcus accomplice into Cojo usually just involves Cojo dying somewhere sad and alone 😪

IR:blade rush on large models is also awkward to get much value (Although butterfly jump is generally amazing)

[Sharp_GT]

On 11/28/2019 at 12:45 PM, Nikodemus said:

Been using them for the last... +5 games? Fair few times certainly. Not a fan. Uninspiring on paper and fairly meh on the table. 

...

Models are kickass though 

I had a similar impression, but haven't tried them. Glad to hear some primary source info on the initiates. I think just a few small tweaks could really patch them up, and I hope it happens because as you mentioned, the sculpts are soooooo dope

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, diki said:

I always find 50mm base + 5" (even with 6" from wings) really doesn't get you very far if you want to trample past other models.

Also I really wish you could accomplice INTO Marcus. I find that the other way round is rarely what I need.

Marcus accomplice into Cojo usually just involves Cojo dying somewhere sad and alone 😪

IR:blade rush on large models is also awkward to get much value (Although butterfly jump is generally amazing)

Butterfly jump already comes with the wings so maybe that upgrade is a bit wasted on Cojo. You might be able to kill something with hard to kill by charging another model and doing one point of auto damage. You don't need to move clean through a model to do damage, just sort of clip a mm on the edge of their base. 

[Nikodemus]

On 11/28/2019 at 10:14 PM, Ogid said:

The best mutation for it is Armored Plates (activating them early in the turn and using Deadly Pursuit and Reposition to keep the Shielded+2 up all the time).

Just pointing out that Reposition still counts as movement so Rattler using it during its own activation will count as having moved and thus be ineligible for +2 Shielded.

Used Rattler in two games over the weekend. Planning to do a few more before the year's through. It's been... ok. Needs more testing but I'm open to the idea that it might actually be worth a little. So far it's been fast enough despite being slower than my other preferred beasts. It's been tanky enough despite being nerfed husk of its 2e glory days.

[Ogid]

7 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

Just pointing out that Reposition still counts as movement so Rattler using it during its own activation will count as having moved and thus be ineligible for +2 Shielded.

Used Rattler in two games over the weekend. Planning to do a few more before the year's through. It's been... ok. Needs more testing but I'm open to the idea that it might actually be worth a little. So far it's been fast enough despite being slower than my other preferred beasts. It's been tanky enough despite being nerfed husk of its 2e glory days.

Glad to know it's working for you

I should had explained myself better, I meant using reposition with a Wicked attack (so outside of his activation); which also make easier to get the trigger with a not so high card because the other player will be at .

[AskM3L8r]

I need another look at Rattlers and try them in 3E. 

Myranda doesn't loose ANY upgrades when she changes back and forth. Consider soulstone cash on her when you use her. That way she could stone as Slate Ridge or Blessed. 

Marcus

Jackalope 

Myranda 

Cojo

That is who I start with and then I'm modular with the rest of the crew. 

[Pastori]

After a long break, I got to play again a few days ago 😃.

The game was supposed to be against Dr McMourning, but my brother forgot to bring his cards. We have the app, but he decided to rather borrow my Zoraida crew so that we both have physical cards.

I did not get to run my new Great Plan of Envy & Scorpius.. Anyway, it was an enjoyable game of Cursed Idols with standard deployment. I did not find a way to stop First Mate and 2 silurid from harnessing the leyline as well as scoring idols twice. However, ss miner delivered an important message to the old hag, and Cojo helped in harnessing the leyline once as well as scoring idols twice. So it ended 4-4.

Myranda changed to cerberus beginning of round two and went silurid hunting on one flank. Almost got one down before being mauled to pulp by the First Mate.

Marcus led the show from center, watching the mauler wrestle Juju for no effect and shouting to Cojo to get things done. 

After a few games, the Jackalope appears to be the killiest member of the team. It always kills someone, and never gets killed. An amazing totem, one to be proud of 😊.

On the other hand, I have taken Paul 3 times, and never gotten anything out of him. I think he would need a red joker to hit. His presense is such that I even forgot to activate him the first turn (Marcus and Cojo had moved him so that they were nicely lined up..) My brother agreed that he can retroactively take one concentrate action. Then he shot Juju, missed, missed, pushed an idol once, and died.🙄 

Anyway, any tips regarding Paul are welcome..

[Ludvig]

If you put upgrades on the jackalope it turns into a real melee beast (pun intended). 

[AskM3L8r]

5 hours ago, Pastori said:

Anyway, any tips regarding Paul are welcome..

I could use some Crockett tips too. Havent had good luck with him so far. My pacing of movement has been a struggle for me.

Side note: Jackalope is my hero most Marcus games 😍

[CD1248]

5 hours ago, Pastori said:

Anyway, any tips regarding Paul are welcome..

Scent of Blood and Coordinated Attack are your money makers. Keep him back and attack things already engaged by your other beasts, use that 14" range. His gun becomes a lot scarier when a hit also means free attacks from the big scary beast you thought was done for the turn.

Natural Musk can be very useful if you smell an Assassinate coming, but otherwise it's just Hard to Wound by another name, which is fine.

Forage makes him a great late game counter-schemer, especially if Marcus plops Wings on him. Being able to remove a scheme marker from 14" away denies points real easy.

[grundil]

22 hours ago, AskM3L8r said:

Myranda doesn't loose ANY upgrades when she changes back and forth. Consider soulstone cash on her when you use her. That way she could stone as Slate Ridge or Blessed. 

 

Hum, if i'm not wrong, myranda doesn't loose SPECIAL upgrade but she looses other one.

[Nikodemus]

12 minutes ago, grundil said:

Hum, if i'm not wrong, myranda doesn't loose SPECIAL upgrade but she looses other one.

Her 'Beast Shape' bonus action:

"... without discarding ANY UPGRADES.".

And her 'Bestial Form' upgrade:

"... without discarding ANY UPGRADES.".

[Pastori]

2 hours ago, CD1248 said:

Scent of Blood and Coordinated Attack are your money makers. Keep him back and attack things already engaged by your other beasts, use that 14" range. His gun becomes a lot scarier when a hit also means free attacks from the big scary beast you thought was done for the turn.

Natural Musk can be very useful if you smell an Assassinate coming, but otherwise it's just Hard to Wound by another name, which is fine.

Forage makes him a great late game counter-schemer, especially if Marcus plops Wings on him. Being able to remove a scheme marker from 14" away denies points real easy.

The thing is that I have not hit once with him😑.. good points though, especially on forage end game denial. Next time I try him I will try to make an effort to spare a high card for him so maybe he will hit eventually.😚