Zipp wins UK Masters gg2018

[Lucidicide]

I just counted things as they are listed in the FAQ and Errata document. For example, I didn't count Lucius as a Neverborn buff or Misaki as an Outcast one. I also didn't really count Tara changes as anything but clarity... and I didn't do things like the Conflux of Thunder as a nerf.

There's obviously some room for interpretation with the numbers /shrug.

I mean, we could start arguing that the price point things change prices at means that the buffs/nerfs for different Factions were greater/lesser based on their percentage of the model's cost, etc. There's a lot of ways to argue here.

My point is mostly that Gremlin players seem to feel put upon. In my mind, and in the way I see things via the data, they are not. And they just won something like the UK Masters, etc. It is not the end of the Gremlins because of this errata.

[Lucidicide]

I'll just add one more note: I'm not arguing that Gremlin players shouldn't talk about their Faction. They definitely should! If you're a Gremlin player and you want to see a change, advocate for it. If more time is spent advocating for the changes you want to see than arguing about the changes that happen, you'll probably see more progress.

Regardless, I'm going to keep doing what I think is right for the game. I'll be wrong sometimes, but I'll never listen to someone just because they are loud.

[Math Mathonwy]

I think that simply counting nerfs and buffs isn't very useful. The nerf on Metal Gamin was certainly way more devastating than the nerf on Francisco (to pick non-Gremlin examples). No one hires Metal Gamin anymore while Francisco's nerf didn't affect his popularity one bit. 

It would probably be better to count the nerfs that turned a staple into a niche pick (though that is naturally way more subjective).

[WWHSD]

7 minutes ago, Aaron said:

I just counted things as they are listed in the FAQ and Errata document. For example, I didn't count Lucius as a Neverborn buff or Misaki as an Outcast one. I also didn't really count Tara changes as anything but clarity... and I didn't do things like the Conflux of Thunder as a nerf.

There's obviously some room for interpretation with the numbers /shrug.

I mean, we could start arguing that the price point things change prices at means that the buffs/nerfs for different Factions were greater/lesser based on their percentage of the model's cost, etc. There's a lot of ways to argue here.

My point is mostly that Gremlin players seem to feel put upon. In my mind, and in the way I see things via the data, they are not. And they just won something like the UK Masters, etc. It is not the end of the Gremlins because of this errata.

You really should be ashamed of yourself for trying to bring facts into an Internet argument Aaron. 

[Lucidicide]

I didn't count Francisco as a nerf, actually. Just Diestro and Austringers. You could argue that Papa Loco and Francisco both were, or that Diestro wasn't. Who knows. Some of it is pretty subjective, so I agree that the numbers aren't that useful... but they are brought up, so I waded in.

[Math Mathonwy]

1 minute ago, Aaron said:

I'll never listen to someone just because they are loud.

YOU MIGHT NOT LISTEN BUT YOU'LL HEAR!

[Lucidicide]

2 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

It would probably be better to count the nerfs that turned a staple into a niche pick (though that is naturally way more subjective).

I wanted to address this point separately.

I do believe that Gremlins got more of their staples hit, and I believe that is because they were taking far less diverse Crews overall. Results and feedback I was seeing largely put a few key models in.

The big question for me, as a designer, is how much is it because those models are too good and how much of it is because of other models that aren't good enough?

When you look at the Mercenaries, I think it's pretty easy to say that they are too good if other Factions are taking them at a higher cost with some regularity. With the Stuffed Piglets, they were creating a problem at 2ss that doesn't exist at 3ss. 2ss models have proven to be an issue for the game.

The Lenny thing... well, a lot of people didn't "get" that, but I've seen enough Lenny + Ophelia stuff to think it wasn't good for the game even if it was balanced. That said, that'd probably be the only nerf to Gremlins I made that you'd get more of a "you may be right" from me if you argued.

The Rooster Riders are probably the biggest thing where it's a good question, but again, their sheer mobility created some issues, and they were very good models.

 

I recognize that people are always going to argue with me on my choices... you should! Heck, plenty of people did it on my Mech Rider change, the Dreamer is still debated, and when Justin did the Metal Gamin... hooboy. Arguing is good.

But as long as we are, maybe it'll help you to see why I did what I did and some of the ways I try to be objective about it.

[Math Mathonwy]

First of all, I want to note that I really appreciate you taking the time to address our concerns!

Second, I think that all the nerfs that Gremlins have gotten (with the possible exception of Lenny) have been on models that I felt should be nerfed. But I also think that some of the nerfs were too ham-fisted making the models almost vanish from the tables (many were spot on - Burt and Franc, for example).

Now, there have been efforts of making some of these playable again. BBB - the topic of the other thread! - being a prime example as Roosters are "obviously" the prime target for his most powerful buff. And that is certainly a way of dealing with things and I think that it is a good idea to utilize the whole tool box.

Finally, I appreciate you implying that you're willing to re-visit old nerfs and maybe adjust them in the future. Stuffeds and Lenny are really sorry these days and it't good to know that there's still hope.

[Flinroz]

On 1/29/2018 at 5:07 AM, trikk said:

Gremlins also won a 28 people tournament in Poland and I think @edopersichetti was second at LVO

I'm kinda a screwy gremlin player though. I played Mama Z all three rounds at LVO.

[trikk]

35 minutes ago, Aaron said:

I didn't count Francisco as a nerf, actually. Just Diestro and Austringers. You could argue that Papa Loco and Francisco both were, or that Diestro wasn't. Who knows. Some of it is pretty subjective, so I agree that the numbers aren't that useful... but they are brought up, so I waded in.

I`ll just say that Francisco was more a clarity issue but Loco got hit pretty hard with the bury change. (not saying undeservingly but I`d definitely count it towards the nerf)

[PolishSausage]

35 minutes ago, Aaron said:

The Lenny thing... well, a lot of people didn't "get" that, but I've seen enough Lenny + Ophelia stuff to think it wasn't good for the game even if it was balanced. That said, that'd probably be the only nerf to Gremlins I made that you'd get more of a "you may be right" from me if you argued.

I 100% agree with you on that silliness. I have been playing Ophelia now and find her to be very, very strong. I hardly ever use her innate gun and rely on all 3 different discard abilities.

 

The main reason Gremlins have always felt like the faction with the most UP/DOWN models is because we are a 100% M2E faction.

They were never the most popular models and during initial M2E test they were the most untested (looking at the first sets of Ophelia nerfs here that were simple fixes) 

One of the more glaring issues that Majority of gremlins have is lack of model summoning and too much overlap of abilities/reasons to be hired.

 

As an example Ressers use almost entire range of models due to Nicodem/Kirai/Molly having the option to summon them. As gremlin players we would like to have all the models be viable options as opposed to "collecting dust"

 

PS: Its not like I am hinting for us to get a Taxidermist/Necromancer/Leveticus eque master that will give us access to those sweet Gassers with pull-my-fingers

[Math Mathonwy]

2 minutes ago, PolishSausage said:

The main reason Gremlins have always felt like the faction with the most UP/DOWN models is because we are a 100% M2E faction.

They were never the most popular models and during initial M2E test they were the most untested (looking at the first sets of Ophelia nerfs here that were simple fixes) 

I know I say this relatively often but I feel that it is always worth remembering that Collodi and the original version of Lucius came out of the same playtest for the same faction and they were both existing models that were tested extensively.

[PolishSausage]

18 minutes ago, trikk said:

I`ll just say that Francisco was more a clarity issue but Loco got hit pretty hard with the bury change. (not saying undeservingly but I`d definitely count it towards the nerf)

Didint Loco get 1ss upgrade for armor 1(lead line coat) ?

[wizuriel]

2 minutes ago, PolishSausage said:

Didn't Loco get 1ss upgrade for armor 1(lead line coat) ?

Numb to the world was pretty much made for Loco

[trikk]

Its only needed because the Papa Box got removed from the game.

[wizuriel]

13 minutes ago, trikk said:

Its only needed because the Papa Box got removed from the game.

Peacekeeper disagrees with that

[Gnomezilla]

2 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

Peacekeeper disagrees with that

You leave my stompybots out of this! 

*attempts to harpoon Earl and drag him home, free suits to constructs and all*

(c’mon, you gremmies left a long drawn-out argument about being underpowered out and uncovered, don’t you know that’s practically  Guildie bait???)

[PolishSausage]

12 minutes ago, trikk said:

Its only needed because the Papa Box got removed from the game.

Another reason why loco/francisco condition should be non-master. Demonstrating that if people take 6ss marshal and 7ss loco the +DMG buff on certain master is worth 13+ ss.

Also if a guild player does not take Franc these days and loses a game the first recommendation to improve his list is "get franc"

[Runeman]

1 hour ago, Aaron said:

Arcanists (14)

• Buffed: 9
• Nerfed: 5

Gremlins (15)

• Buffed: 9
• Nerfed: 6

Guild (14)

• Buffed: 12
• Nerfed: 2

Neverborn (11)

• Buffed: 9
• Nerfed: 2

Outcasts (14)

• Buffed: 9
• Nerfed: 5

Resurrectionists (10)

• Buffed: 7
• Nerfed: 3

Ten Thunders (11)

• Buffed: 7
• Nerfed: 4

 

 

In total, 27 models were nerfed, of which Gremlins were 22%. If every Faction were nerfed equally, it'd be about 14%. They only had one more model nerfed than 2 Factions (Arcanists and Outcasts). In terms of buffs, there were 62 buffs, of which Gremlins were 14.5%.

So, the Gremlins have had slightly more nerfs than other Factions but are on par for buffs. That said, if I nerf one model in Outcasts or Arcanists, they are tied, exactly, with the Gremlins. I think that's a stretch to say Gremlins have been more picked on. They are really close in line to two of the Factions, which means that 3 out of 7 are right in line. Considering that it's unlikely the Factions had an equal number of things out of whack, this is about what I'd expect.

Obviously Gremlin players don't like some of the choices that were made. All I can say is that things go into playtesting. Models in new books do, as do errata changes.

Although it can be nice for people to have some numbers, I really don't think this matters at all. If one faction has more models in need of errata, everybody should be fine with that faction receiving more errata, whether or not they repressent an increase or a decrease in power for the faction or the model in question.

By speaking up about how unfair the number of changes or the changes in general are (or appear as is always the case), one might generate attention, but it will not help improve the game.

In this case as in many others, the important part is keeping focus. If there is one or two particular models or interactions that one thinks should be looked at, argue about those specific cases. And argue, make comparisons, calculate some statistics, give some anecdotal evidence for their power or lack thereof and if possible present some alternative solutions.

If we can do that, then the path to making even better decisions going forward will be easier. If the forums are filled with good well-argued posts without a lot of noisy complaints, it will be easier for the guys at Wyrd to gather and consider the information and act accordingly.

[wizuriel]

1 minute ago, Gnomezilla said:

You leave my stompybots out of this! 

*attempts to harpoon Earl and drag him home, free suits to constructs and all*

(c’mon, you gremmies left a long drawn-out argument about being underpowered out and uncovered, don’t you know that’s practically  Guildie bait???)

Or was our plan all along to draw out the guild and have them clustered together while rooster riders come out from the wood works with Lenny tossing 2SS stuffed pigs towards an entrenched pig a pult to rain down death upon the oppressors?

 

[Gnomezilla]

7 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

Or was our plan all along to draw out the guild and have them clustered together while rooster riders come out from the wood works with Lenny tossing 2SS stuffed pigs towards an entrenched pig a pult to rain down death upon the oppressors?

That’s not nearly complicated enough to be a Zipp plan. At minimum it needs more poorly handled explosives...

*at this point Gnomezilla’s meta loans @wizuriel the duct tape of Gnomezilla is Not Allowed to Ever Play Zipp*

[trikk]

23 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

Peacekeeper disagrees with that

I mean Loco only needs it because Box change.

16 minutes ago, PolishSausage said:

Another reason why loco/francisco condition should be non-master. Demonstrating that if people take 6ss marshal and 7ss loco the +DMG buff on certain master is worth 13+ ss.

Also if a guild player does not take Franc these days and loses a game the first recommendation to improve his list is "get franc"

Except people didn`t take it just for the dmg buff. They took it for 2 turns of damage buff and then exploding in the middle of the enemy crew. And they only took it with 1 master. And they still take it with 1 master. If the buff was non-master he`d probably end up somewhere alongside Bayou Gators.

Who recommends it? I recommend it if you play Sonnia/McMourning/Justice which are 3 low Df Masters with no Armor or Squeels. You just said that a 12 Wd Df6 Armor +1 Dirty Cheater Mah Tucket is not tough enough. Well, without Frank those 3 would be even shittier defensively that her.

That being said I think Frank is poorly designed because those 3 masters REALLY need him to survive. I`d much prefer if they got a +1Df and El Mayor was changed into a non-stat bonus.

[PolishSausage]

I am still in the camp of tossing "poorly handled explosive" young lacroix, un-paralyzing them with Ophelia for them to "yall watch me".

Funzies is Funzies 

[Runeman]

1 hour ago, Aaron said:

I wanted to address this point separately.

I do believe that Gremlins got more of their staples hit, and I believe that is because they were taking far less diverse Crews overall. Results and feedback I was seeing largely put a few key models in.

The big question for me, as a designer, is how much is it because those models are too good and how much of it is because of other models that aren't good enough?

When you look at the Mercenaries, I think it's pretty easy to say that they are too good if other Factions are taking them at a higher cost with some regularity. With the Stuffed Piglets, they were creating a problem at 2ss that doesn't exist at 3ss. 2ss models have proven to be an issue for the game.

The Lenny thing... well, a lot of people didn't "get" that, but I've seen enough Lenny + Ophelia stuff to think it wasn't good for the game even if it was balanced. That said, that'd probably be the only nerf to Gremlins I made that you'd get more of a "you may be right" from me if you argued.

The Rooster Riders are probably the biggest thing where it's a good question, but again, their sheer mobility created some issues, and they were very good models.

 

I recognize that people are always going to argue with me on my choices... you should! Heck, plenty of people did it on my Mech Rider change, the Dreamer is still debated, and when Justin did the Metal Gamin... hooboy. Arguing is good.

But as long as we are, maybe it'll help you to see why I did what I did and some of the ways I try to be objective about it.

I can't help it, I have to address some of these examples.

Lenny had to be changed. That particular interaction locked Ophelia into a certain playstyle where she never used her gun upgrades, and that does not appear to have been the original intention with Ophelia. That it probably made him fall somewhat behind the curve is unfortunate, but perhaps it can be at least partly fixed by making his Whacked Piglet action into a (0). Most gremlin models from the first two books have three (or more depending on circumstances) actions one way or another, many pigs have the (1) charge as do the Rooster Riders, Moon Shinobi have an at least playable (0) and a lot of other models have Reckless, Nimble or Melee Expert, so not having either is a stumbling block for some models. On the other hand, a few models have both an additional action and a playable (0) or in the case of the Rooster Riders pre errata both an additional action and a (1) charge. This was too good for Rooster Riders, and it is a little less too good for Lightning Bugs, especially considering that they are one of the only models that ignore armor, and they even ignore incorporeal on top of that.

Before book 5 came around, we had some discussions on this board regarding Ophelia and what might be done to improve her. I know some of us argued that giving her instinctual or something similar would open her up to be more distinct from Somer, as that would mean that she would be a sort of mobility master. And I can only assume the people at Wyrd listened, as they gave us not only instinctual, but even more mobility for her Kin if we wanted to use her upgrade guns. 

Malifaux is that kind of game where a lot of people will go "WTF! Can it also do THAT?" when confronted with a new model for the first time, which is good. The errata changes appear to have the explicit purpose of making the (directly and indirectly) affected models situational picks. And most players can probably get behind that philosophy. Sometimes that might mean that a particular faction gets more or less competitive for a while, but for the majority of games it will still be an improvement, and only by accepting and playing with the changes can we get closer to that very important balance goal.

[PolishSausage]

2 minutes ago, trikk said:

Who recommends it? I recommend it if you play Sonnia/McMourning/Justice which are 3 low Df Masters with no Armor or Squeels. You just said that a 12 Wd Df6 Armor +1 Dirty Cheater Mah Tucket is not tough enough. Well, without Frank those 3 would be even shittier defensively that her.

That being said I think Frank is poorly designed because those 3 masters REALLY need him to survive. I`d much prefer if they got a +1Df and El Mayor was changed into a non-stat bonus.

 

I agree on Justice/Mcmourning needing help, but in retrospect they each have a natural way to heal. Mah is stuck needing to chose upgrades that make Mah -> Mah or spending precious upgrade slots for survival upgrades. if you are going with latter your better of taking Zip ( tanky super solo beater)

 

As a constructive way and comparison to make Mah better:

All her book 2 upgrades have 1 ability on each of them, this makes picking and choosing very hard. I would like some of them to be merged.

An example of a melee beater would be Lilith, her wave 5 upgrade has 4-5 different abilities all on 1 card for price of 1ss.

I doubt it would be game breaking to have Diving Charge and +1 Armor on a 2ss master exclusive upgrade. Most players would still rather Zip (around)