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Delude by Broken promises (for the moment)


EpicWaffle

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Am I the only one? Yeah models look awesome so far, but I feel like I don't need to buy any of them. Maybe wrastlers, maybe criers if gg2018 will change toward their play style direction, but are they worth it? For me (I will avoid bokor because I don't play zoraida) none of the new models is filling a missing gap in the faction or at least, its not enough. None of them seems to do something toward solving our internal faction unbalance between models, where a really small pool of models (and masters) is way above the rest. 

A model like big brain,to point out an example, what's his purpose? To make Bayou reactivate? Bah, I can take two instead of him and it's the same thing, and for roosters it's not that much of a deal. I would see play for him only if I'm sure I'm against pandora ne I wanna annoy my opponent.

The smuggler too, why would I hire him? 

I don't know, I'm not excited at all for this release. I played it safe putting in the title "for the moment" because the new upgrades will maybe make everything have more sense, same for gg2018, but for now, it feels for me like the "shifting loyalties" release, where all seemed neat, but when it came down to playing those models, they turned out to be marginal, or really situational (at least for me, r.i.p 40€ for the emissary).

Hope to see some response, and if you have a different opinion PLEASE convince me that I'm wrong, because I want to pay wyrd's employee, but I don't want more "dust-collecting" models :( 

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Unfortunately I feel mostly the same. Even so far that I feel that Wrastlers and Criers have the most potential but both are probably more "fun" than really required as such. I feel that we really got the short end of the stick this time.

During the beta the basic argument seemed to be that our existing choices are so good/OP that we can't have the new stuff be competitive else it be OP.

That said, many of the new models are really, really complex and strangely quirky that I'll reserve final judgment only after I've seen them on the table. And as you said, the new Upgrades might change things. But on paper I'm (currently) not really seeing it.

(Or maybe they'll errata all our good models to oblivion next January so this stuff will start seeming super enticing!)

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1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

 

(Or maybe they'll errata all our good models to oblivion next January so this stuff will start seeming super enticing!)

I'm having the same fear :D 

I don't quite understand what they want to achieve with gremlins. Even about the upgrades, my fears are that they will just make the stronger master even stronger, and the less used ones even more "meh"

i might be pessimistic, but the more I understand the game, the more it seems that wyrd hasn't a clear idea about what gremlins need, while people are getting more and more salty about them, since this year they popped out from the shadows. Also, were still the smallest community among the factions, and spitting out an entire release of mediocre and situational models seems such a bad move even on the economical level.

My hope were that this release would had been focussed on some tri-chi useful models, something for mah to make her work without gimmicky crews or maybe some new dimensions to Ophelia in order to make her more fun ad strategic rather than simply a small gremlin with a big gun. A lot of people I talked to about it complained saying "you're already a strong faction, you don't need more strong stuff" but what they don't understand is that you look at a faction that has 3 strong master and the rest is just on a completely different (and lower) level. As a matter of fact I don't want our strong masters to be stronger, but our lesser used ones to be better, or at least have a chance against the rest (like Neverborn, where every master  is competitive capabl, even tho some are better than others). I hope wyrd will hear complains like this too, not only focusing on "balancing issues" based on complains and that they will take a pause from releases to focus on what they have that doesn't work.

I really wanna hope that the new upgrades and gg2018 will bring a new breath of fresh air to the game, otherwise it's getting quite monotonous (if you wanna play competitive, which is for me the best part about this game).

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I think that Wrastlers are a step in the right direction in that sense in that they are our first cheap melee Gremlins aside from the Hog Whisperer who is rather specialized. They fill a niche for Mah.

And Big Brain's point seemed to be to make the Roosters usable again but it is on such a weird platform that I don't know. I think that he is situationally great but due to his awful Df and him being so annoying to the enemy and needing to be close that he's going to be just another "fun" choice.

And Bokors seemed to be about fixing Gators and Wild Boars.

So I can kinda see the reasoning there but the challenge is of course making models which, e.g., make Mah better but not Zipp. And that's not easy since Zipp is essentially Mah on steroids. And Wong is a better Ophelia and Somer is a better everyone else...

So even if Wrastlers are what Mah needs, Zipp is still better than Mah.

Added to this is that almost all the new models are support except Wrastlers. And that's difficult as well since Gremlins are so squishy that support has a tendency to not have anything to support turn three onwards since the canny opponent has killed all the actual achievers.

Finally, I think that there's a bit of a witch hunt. Gremlins have always been the faction that you can make fun of ("not a real faction" ahahaha) and they weren't played much. Now that they are having some success people are noticing it and are reacting. People have gotten used to how silly Francisco or Howard are but it seems that only now they are realizing how silly Burt is. Added to that is Nellie and TT hiring Burt and having success due to their ability to support him better than Gremlins have traditionally been able to and a storm is ready.

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1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Finally, I think that there's a bit of a witch hunt. Gremlins have always been the faction that you can make fun of ("not a real faction" ahahaha) and they weren't played much. Now that they are having some success people are noticing it and are reacting. People have gotten used to how silly Francisco or Howard are but it seems that only now they are realizing how silly Burt is. Added to that is Nellie and TT hiring Burt and having success due to their ability to support him better than Gremlins have traditionally been able to and a storm is ready.

Howard is 12 SS. Francisco is 8 . Francois is 7. Burt is 7. Its not the damage output that people are complaining. I`m not going to get into another discussion about Gremlins because its boring but the issue with Howard and Frank vs Burt and Francois is: how much other stuff you get can in the crew. Now this is not a complaint but I just put it as food for thought.

 

Burt with TT? Oh my, did you see Tavish in TT with Recalled Training, Smoke Grenades and all the fast/focuses each turn? ;)

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@Math Mathonwy feel free too, please, I was just putting my hands ahead just to not devolve again in the same argument that I think almost anyone in here knows and how trikk feels about Burt and co.  :D btw great point on your post, I didn't consider that side of things about having something cool for someone, which would be even better in others, or at least not fully so kudos for that :D 

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Just now, EpicWaffle said:

@Math Mathonwy feel free too, please, I was just putting my hands ahead just to not devolve again in the same argument that I think almost anyone in here knows and how trikk feels about Burt and co.  :D btw great point on your post, I didn't consider that side of things about having something cool for someone, which would be even better in others, or at least not fully so kudos for that :D 

I think that it is better this way. We've been doing this tango with Trikk quite a bit lately and, I mean, I love the man, but I'm not sure that the rest of the forum is enriched by us going on about it :P 

I do take the opportunity to say that no, I haven't had the pleasure of a TT McTavish. Which isn't something that I'm sad about, mind!

And, in order to say something about the topic as well, Bokors might be worth considering for Wong. Positive twists to casts isn't exactly bad for him and that shielding Faded Condition would be welcomed by the Swine-Cursed. I dunno, might not be worth 6SS but I intend to try once they are released.

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Just now, Math Mathonwy said:

I think that it is better this way. We've been doing this tango with Trikk quite a bit lately and, I mean, I love the man, but I'm not sure that the rest of the forum is enriched by us going on about it :P 

I do take the opportunity to say that no, I haven't had the pleasure of a TT McTavish. Which isn't something that I'm sad about, mind!

And, in order to say something about the topic as well, Bokors might be worth considering for Wong. Positive twists to casts isn't exactly bad for him and that shielding Faded Condition would be welcomed by the Swine-Cursed. I dunno, might not be worth 6SS but I intend to try once they are released.

That's the issue :| cursed swine are gonna go down anyway if the opponent want to, so I'd rather invest in something aimed to points rather than buffing an already buffed unit, I don't know if it makes sense :D 

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4 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I think that it is better this way. We've been doing this tango with Trikk quite a bit lately and, I mean, I love the man, but I'm not sure that the rest of the forum is enriched by us going on about it :P 

I do take the opportunity to say that no, I haven't had the pleasure of a TT McTavish. Which isn't something that I'm sad about, mind!

And, in order to say something about the topic as well, Bokors might be worth considering for Wong. Positive twists to casts isn't exactly bad for him and that shielding Faded Condition would be welcomed by the Swine-Cursed. I dunno, might not be worth 6SS but I intend to try once they are released.

Oh I think we can agree on a lot of things because I agree with a lot of your points.

My biggest issue with Burt is that he`s a Mercenary TBH. Same with Tavish. A lot of people are getting them and you can see them in probably 25% crews

I`m planning on buying Gremlins and giving them to a painter soon :D

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Seriously though, the rest just seem to be weird fluffy ideas, padding out a Sylvanian Families idea of a Gremlin village (town criers in "the square", smugglers down at the docks, Wrastlers entertaining other Grems at Mancha Roja's MEGA-RING!!!). All very fluffy - which i like - but I'm also unsure of the utility.

Still, i haven't even seen their cards yet, so what the hell do *I* know?!? ;)

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40 minutes ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

Seriously though, the rest just seem to be weird fluffy ideas, padding out a Sylvanian Families idea of a Gremlin village (town criers in "the square", smugglers down at the docks, Wrastlers entertaining other Grems at Mancha Roja's MEGA-RING!!!). All very fluffy - which i like - but I'm also unsure of the utility.

Still, i haven't even seen their cards yet, so what the hell do *I* know?!? ;)

The wrastlers I'm excited about for marker control. I'll take a cheap way to remove corpse/scrap/schemes all day!

 

*lookin' at you Reva*

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I'm still struggling to find my feet with the faction (and the game) so I'm not really sure what I was looking for with the Wave 5 goodies with Gremlins. I was disappointed that nothing seemed directed as an in faction hire for Brewmaster (who is a master I REALLY want to try). So I'm hopeful that the master upgrades will give my small stable of masters some fun and useful new play changes. The last few weeks have been just absolutely dour over here in the Gremlin faction forum.

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In the playtests I used the bokor in a couple of wong crews to decent effect.  between boosting bugs and wong and generally giving a tarpit (such as we have them) Faded it tended to justify it's inclusion. 

Wrastlers were fun.  I tried one with an iron Skeeter as a strange tag Team which was really good at punching down a flank against opponent scheme runners.  Now,  you could say there are better options, and be right most of the time, but I feel they are viable. 

I really like the criers. Being able to cancel other models counting for strats can win games. They also make a great Ffm target for the same reason (and you can think of them as a bayou gremlin with an upgrade of it helps). 

I really want to like big brain. He's kin so it'll be interesting to see what the final ophelia upgrade are to see if he gets better. Condition removal is handy, as is giving an enemy insignificant as it legs it towards the table edge hoping to score leave your mark but he is really fragile. 

 

So... Yeah...  There's my sales pitch. 

 

I'll definitely pick up criers and take it from there when I see the upgrades etc. 

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You won't always like every new unit your faction is getting in a new book. If you look back to Shifting Loyalties, I wasn't a fan of any of the Gremlins. They just didn't do anything for me. I'm primarily a Neverborn Lilith player, so I was happy about the Emissary and Nephilim, but the Bunraku and Wrath were pretty much misses for me (until I actually tried Bunraku, at least) and I was so put off by the Changelings appearance (I was hoping they'd look like the little Faeries on the Emissarys base) that I still don't have any.

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10 hours ago, EpicWaffle said:

That's the issue :| cursed swine are gonna go down anyway if the opponent want to, so I'd rather invest in something aimed to points rather than buffing an already buffed unit, I don't know if it makes sense :D 

It does make sense. And having, say, a Francois instead of the Bokor is also going to help by taking the pressure off the Swines a bit (or else it'll help by Francois cleaning house). The one reason I feel it might have some potential is that if the Swine doesn't die they heal up very well so if the Bokor can keep them just barely alive against the enemy onslaught, that's pretty great. Also, Faded reducing damage to zero means no After damaging Triggers which can be pretty great.

But as noted, I do have a sinking feeling that you are correct.

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36 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

It does make sense. And having, say, a Francois instead of the Bokor is also going to help by taking the pressure off the Swines a bit (or else it'll help by Francois cleaning house). The one reason I feel it might have some potential is that if the Swine doesn't die they heal up very well so if the Bokor can keep them just barely alive against the enemy onslaught, that's pretty great. Also, Faded reducing damage to zero means no After damaging Triggers which can be pretty great.

But as noted, I do have a sinking feeling that you are correct.

That's what happens when you have so many good damage dealers that cost next to nothing. Buffing Howard Langston is much more attractive, because you just can't take three of him for a negligible cost. It's difficult to make good support models for beaters that cheap. They would need to cost 3-4ss, but would that be fair either?

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