Are the TT evil -a question from a newbie

[Strangedane]

So, I am somewhat new to Malifaux,  and bought into the Ten Thunders due to how they looked. Now I've been reading into the fluff, and the more I read, the more 100% evil they seem. Not as in Neverborn evil, but all what is worst in humanity, or am I mistaken? The Mei feng fluff, the wyrd magazine 17 where a mother is killed due to protection money and so on.

 

Are there any good in this faction at all?!

[Parker Barrows]

Well, they are an underground criminal organization, so pretty bad.

But there's a bit on perspective. All factions have good and bad in them. The Guild are the protectors of humanity. They're also a facist regime. The Neverborn do horrible things to humans, but humans are invaders who are stripping their natural resources from them. So, they kinda have a good reason to hate humans. The most evil faction is the Rezzers and even they have good people in it (Molly, Kirai, and Reva come to mind).

As for the Ten Thunders, they are a ruthless criminal organization bent on domination. They are also fighting for the Three Kingdoms which is ruthlessly subjugated by the Guild.

There's probably less good in them compared to some of the other Factions, but no faction is 100% evil.

[Cadaverousbirth]

Parker Barrows has it right, which is surprising because he is a dirty criminal soon to face Guild prosecution. 

The Thunders have good and bad folks with varying degrees of personal ambitions, just like every faction. The morally ambiguous grey area that the majority of Malifaux characters explore is the best part of the fluff for me. 

For instance consider Charles Hoffman who is almost exclusively considered a sympathetic paraplegic trying to save his brother and do good by his compatriots in the Guild. However he is also coldly logical and has proved he can and will sacrifice the people he works with to accomplish his goals. Grey, and fantastic. 

For a 10T example, Shenlong is "good" but will also put the Dragon's and his own goals ahead of the common good if those intersect. He isn't a saint but he also isn't murdering working women and making them zombie slaves like Seamus.  

[Strangedane]

That's just it - in all the other races I have seen both sides, but only evil in the TT! Maybe it is because I have not read all the fluff?

[BigHammer]

Asami is mostly an innocent being manipulated by a fairly evil spirit.

McCabe is a rogue and a scoundrel (some may even say a cad!), but doesn't really have much evil in him, as far as his stories go.

Lynch is misguided and unlucky, but he's a mostly well-meaning person stuck between a rock and a very, very hard place.

Mei Feng wants to do right by her people (the rail crews and the Three Kingdoms folk in Malifaux in general), but is deep in the pockets of the Thunders to the point that she has to do their dirty work, even if it means murder and extortion, because she would simply be done away with otherwise.

The real "evil" in the Ten Thunders comes from those in its positions of power; the Oyabun is your classic syndicate crime-lord, being a mix-up of the Triads and the Yakuza. He keeps the Thunders in power by espionage, assassination, people-trafficking, soulstone smuggling, extortion, drug dealing and other nefarious means.

They aren't exactly a force for good in the world, even if some of their most prominent characters would like it to be otherwise...

 

That said, we now know exactly who was behind preventing the Governor General from ascending to become a Tyrant... (and I totally called it, by the way :D)

So they can't be all that bad, right?

 

Just have a few more drinks, on the house! Don't mind that purple colour, it's just the way they make them here at the Honeypot. You'll love it, and I'm sure you'll be back for more tomorrow night...

[Vorschlag]

Depends on the individual moral compass.

Evil is a judgement of ethics or unethical behaviour, applying modern ethics to historical periods or cultures is difficult enough without understanding the social, philosophical and cultural environment.

This becomes absurd when applied to alien races such as never born or gremlins.

Less so to fantasy human races loosely based on existing historical cultures which returns us to understanding the implications of their environment.

This is difficult because we don't presently have enough background on the history of the three kingdoms.

We get glimpses of the damage the guild has done and the situation which they have created but not enough to truly understand the plight of it's people and so it is hard to judge how much their hand has been forced.

Thus judgement of their ethics must fall to individuals and individual situations.

What drives each character, how do they see themselves, do they feel that they are doing what they do for the greater good or for selfish reasons, do they acknowledge a spectrum of good and evil at all, how do they respond to breaches in their own moral code etc etc.

 

Rant ends

Explanation: I absolutely loath the DND style alignments, it over simplifies the wealth of human psychology and dulls the personality of individuals and groups.

[hydranixx]

I think Ten Thunders are fairly middle of the pack faction as far as 'evil' goes.

Thunders have intricate goals, many of which are questionable and lucrative, but they're not a vicious corporate conglomerate instilling outright brutal oppression and sadism while pretending to care about people like the Guild. 

The Guild's sole goal in Malifaux is to protect the soulstone trade. They provide a modicum of protection to citizens and workers only to help them reach their soulstone quotas. There are some genuinely good people with good intentions in the Guild, but their command is corrupt to the core.

Read some material about what Sonnia and the Witch Hunters subfaction get up to.

[Parker Barrows]

Oh.  *SPOILERS FOR RIPPLES OF FATE*

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The Ten Thunders saved the city in recent events. Nicodem took advantage in the disorganization of Guild in the wake of the Governor-General's death. He was doing damn good, and it's basically suggest that he was on the verge of overcoming the Death Marshals and running rampant through the rest of the Malifaux. The Ten Thunders realized what was happening and attacked the southern(?) flank. Once it collapsed, the Death Marshals were able to overcome Nicodem's army. Had they not interceded, it's quite likely that Nicodem would have won or did even more damage than he already had.

[solkan]

36 minutes ago, Strangedane said:

That's just it - in all the other races I have seen both sides, but only evil in the TT! Maybe it is because I have not read all the fluff?

Here's a pointed question for you.  Where is the good side for the Arcanists?  The have smuggling operations, they include a cannibalist cult related to one of the Tyrants, they run protection rackets, and operate the Miner and Steamfitters Union as a front for their operations.  They've even attacked the railroad operations (and were responsible for Ryle Hoffman's condition.)

The main difference between the Arcanists and the Ten Thunders is that you've probably been fooled by the Arcanists cover organizations.  Which is a shame, because Ramos has demonstrated the same willingness for "necessary violence" that the Ten Thunders demonstrates.

 

[spooky_squirrel]

On top of what @Vorschlag said: it also depends heavily on what scope you are looking at.
To an individual who just so happens to arrive in Malifaux with awakened magical abilities, the Guild is terrifying and evil because the first (and potentially last thing) that the individual sees is Witchhunters coming after them.
To the people who support the Guild's mission, unsanctioned magic users represent a serious and dire threat. There's a criminal organization built around that very threat.
To the people that support the Arcanists without being a magic user or engaging in any criminal acts or terrorist activities themselves, they have a wide range of motivations. Some are tired of the total control and paranoid behavior, others have grudges against the Guild for things that happened on the other side of the breach. For M&SU members especially, the Guild is constantly harassing and imprisoning them for interrogation. Sometimes they live through the questioning, sometimes not.
Then you look at people like Nellie and her good friend with the steel plate in her head. They see Union thugs roughing up decent people, or causing chaos and instability. There's additional history that doesn't make the Union look any better, even without knowledge of Arcanist ties.

That's just two factions.

 

4 minutes ago, solkan said:

 They've even attacked the railroad operations (and were responsible for Ryle Hoffman's condition.)

They're responsible for Ryle still kicking. The actual initial problem was triggered by Anna. Ramos tried to capitalize on it to retain Hoffman's talent, since he had been trying to recruit Ryle in the first place.

[Strangedane]

I can see some mention of ripples of fate and since that particular book is heading my way, I will come back to this thread when I get the book on Monday!  Thanks for all the answers guys, this community seems nice (been lurking in the shadows)

[Norken]

Good and evil are concepts that virtually never holds up under much examination of situations and motives.

That being said, while the world is inherently a zero sum place where any action taken by one deprives another, there is usually some degree of inherent contrition that plays a part in governing the behavior of people that leads them to prefer finding a path that gives them enough of what they want without injuring others excessively in the gaining of it.

Organized crime is more or less a premeditated scheme to willfully break conventions at least nominally designed to facilitate that desire for the purpose of extracting material gains at the expense of others as a primary means of providing for themselves.  Which is to say that as a concept, co-existence with them is as foolish as supposing you could co-exist with a Tyranid.  It is different in kind to corruption where administration of a system is undermined to a degree by self interest, or a revolutionary process subscribing to a different set of rules taking some "necessary" actions to achieve their goals.

Read the Jorogumo fluff text.  These are not nice people.

[Tokapondora]

In terms of faction-wide morality I'd rank them...

1. Gremlins

2. Outcast

3. Guild

4. Neverborn

5. Arcanists

6. Ten Thunders

7. Resser

With Outcast being essentially neutral on account of having no common goal, where the tiers basically boil down to 1 > 2 > 3=4=5=6 > 7.

Gremlins really just try to live their lives in the face of a world changing around them.

Outcasts are a random collective.

Everything from Guild to TT are really just groups with their self interest and control in mind - with Guild ultimately keeping some degree of peace, the Neverborn much like the Gremlins living there originally though being a bit brutal in their execution, Arcanists being a terrorist rebel faction that fronts some semblance of worker's rights (when it fits them) and Ten Thunders simply aiming for power which in the current climate consists of undermining the already barely functioning stability of Malifaux.

And Ressers are ^ but driven by some Ancient Evil.

[Parker Barrows]

12 minutes ago, solkan said:

Here's a pointed question for you.  Where is the good side for the Arcanists?  The have smuggling operations, they include a cannibalist cult related to one of the Tyrants, they run protection rackets, and operate the Miner and Steamfitters Union as a front for their operations.  They've even attacked the railroad operations (and were responsible for Ryle Hoffman's condition.)

The main difference between the Arcanists and the Ten Thunders is that you've probably been fooled by the Arcanists cover organizations.  Which is a shame, because Ramos has demonstrated the same willingness for "necessary violence" that the Ten Thunders demonstrates.

 

Well, front organization or not, the M&SU does actually help the average rank and file in their organization. Ironsides is a good person. What was said about Mei Feng above still applies. Sandeep seems like the mage rebel fighting for freedom (as opposed to Ramos who is interested in his own gain). Collette is a smuggler, but many for her protection. She does care for her girls. And Marcus.... not sure about him. He's probably more concerned with studies and living the animalistic life. He's neither good nor bad.

[Wolfpact]

There is no way the Guild are anything but the worst of the worst. They're all the evils of fascism,imperialism, and unfettered capitalism, all rolled into one obscene package and literally trading in souls -  And what's worse, they're not even very efficient! Unless lore has updated (I'm behind on books), the Lucius is still prominent and influential (though the new G.G. is less amenable to him?), the official city coroner and undertaker are both prominent Resurrectionists, and the examples pile on elsewhere about how terribly, hilariously badly compromised they are. And driving the Ressers right out into the places where they're most likely to find lore to improve their dark arts...

And being honest, none of the people they're explo - protecting would be in danger in the first place had they not been invading another world for the second time. Not even touching on the slave labor,company town schemes, sex trade with less-than-willing participants...

Does not mean there aren't genuinely heroic, good people in the Guild - but there aregenuinely heroic, good people in the Ressers too... and for what it's worth, Sonnia and Hopkins do awful things, but they seem...not sadistic, at least in the bits I've read. Honestly, most of the 'pure' Guild Masters seem to be mostly-decent folks serving deeply wretched, evil masters.

 

And while the Neverborn are vicious and cruel.. they have survived horrible hardship for centuries and now have alien invaders assaulting their homes, stealing their relics, and generally being a plague on the land they suffered immeasurably to free and reclaim from the Tyrants... and those same invaders have begun allying with sad entities! The 'Born are the good guys!

 

As for the Thunders, they seem, to me, slightly more-vicious, Asian-originating Arcanists ultimately. More overtly violent and more dealing in drugs and the like, so the 'worse' gangsters the gangsters that are the Arcanists (and let's be honest, most of the 'leadershp' are just that - neighborhood-friendly in some cases, but still...)

 

I'd more put it at

1. Gremlins
2. Outcasts
3. Neverborn
4. Arcanists
5. Thunders
6. Resurrectionists
7. Guild

In descending degrees of morality, with the caveat again this is more a collective than necessarily the individual.

[solkan]

4 minutes ago, Parker Barrows said:

Well, front organization or not, the M&SU does actually help the average rank and file in their organization. Ironsides is a good person. What was said about Mei Feng above still applies. Sandeep seems like the mage rebel fighting for freedom (as opposed to Ramos who is interested in his own gain). Collette is a smuggler, but many for her protection. She does care for her girls. And Marcus.... not sure about him. He's probably more concerned with studies and living the animalistic life. He's neither good nor bad.

Your entire post reads as "If you ignore everything bad that the Arcanists do, ..."  or "But all the Arcanist characters have been written by Americans to act like nice people, when they're not killing people."

How many times have those miners been made "necessary examples"?  

Do you understand what the Ten Thunders do for the members of the secret villages, or to get people there?

In the real world of the era, China was dealing with things like the actual Boxer Rebellion in reaction to western imperialism.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion

In the Malifaux world, the Ten Thunders are part of the political response to thosse imperialist actions.

[Gnomezilla]

The Guild, Arcanists (sans Ramos himself), and cleaner, mercenary half of the Outcasts think money is paramount. Does that seem less evil to you than the Ten Thunders (and the nihilist Outcast Hamelin, and Ramos, etc.) who know they are aiming explicitly for power?

[Parker Barrows]

50 minutes ago, solkan said:

Your entire post reads as "If you ignore everything bad that the Arcanists do, ..."  or "But all the Arcanist characters have been written by Americans to act like nice people, when they're not killing people."

How many times have those miners been made "necessary examples"?  

Do you understand what the Ten Thunders do for the members of the secret villages, or to get people there?

In the real world of the era, China was dealing with things like the actual Boxer Rebellion in reaction to western imperialism.  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion

In the Malifaux world, the Ten Thunders are part of the political response to thosse imperialist actions.

Note: I was not saying that the Arcanists were a good guy faction. Just not the pure evil you seem to be suggesting. The Arcanists, like all the Factions, are a mix of good and bad people. Like the Guild and Ten Thunders, the overall organization is pretty bad, but the individuals can be (and some are) good people (relatively).

Like the Guild, they are both protectors and tormentors of the people under their control. Depends on the person and situation on whether they are one or the other or both.

I am quite aware of the Boxer Rebellion, western imperialism, and the parallels between them and what's going on in the story. That's why I talked about the Ten Thunders "fighting for the Three Kingdoms which is ruthlessly subjugated by the Guild." That doesn't mean that it washes away the shitty things they do (mostly against their own people).

But the protection rackets, forcing people to sacrifice themselves to Oni, and all the other bad stuff the Ten Thunders do doesn't erase the good they do. The same goes with the Arcanists.

If you want to talk about characters who have never done anything wrong or doesn't do questionable things, well, then I'm not sure if a "good" character exists.

BTW: All the factions are written to by Americans and non-Americans, so not sure what you're getting at there. I mean, Wyrd doesn't hire call for writers from Asia to write Ten Thunder stories.

EDIT: Got corrected, but the point still stands.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Parker Barrows

[Gnomezilla]

...Ok, some jokes flew right over your head then. At least two of the writers distinctly aren't Americans and a few of the times they sneaked in an Easter egg on that topic it made me giggle.

[Parker Barrows]

2 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

...Ok, some jokes flew right over your head then. At least two of the writers distinctly aren't Americans and a few of the times they sneaked in an Easter egg on that topic it made me giggle.

Thanks for the correction. But I doubt there's an "Americans can only write Arcanists" rule. Honestly, I don't care where the writers are from (hence why I obviously don't know). My annoyance by the comment was that I seem to. Also, annoyed that it was implied that I don't know basic world history and ignorant of story implications which I refer to (if vaguely) in a previous post.

Also, I may be a bit grumpy as I am about to go to work at retail on Thanksgiving. It's madness. It's madness I tell you. So, if I seem like an asshole in this or my previous post, I apologize to anyone who is offended.

[Cadaverousbirth]

I like that some people rate the Outcasts as high in morality...relatively, in Malifaux. Tara is working for a Tyrant and is also a dirty ressurecionist. Leveticus  steals women's souls and uses their body for...things. Jack Daw is an indescriminaye murder ghost. Parker is a criminal. Schill is likely the only "good" master and he's pretty Freikorps-centric for all intents and purposes. 

It's about perspective. The Arcanists are all dirty and the Gremlins are savages. But to THEIR perspective, the 10Ts are extremists and the Guild are fascists. Perspective. 

[Gnomezilla]

Outcasts are half clean and half unclean, which makes it too easy to put them to either extreme of the moral scale. Parker's arrival and relative cleanliness have pushed Tara (mercenary though she may be) out of the overlapping area and firmly into the unclean, Tyrant-ridden, fate-mangled half.

Yes, I did put them at the lowest extreme of the moral scale, myself. That's why I marched my Malifaux Child out of there and never looked back. And now, Divergent Paths... *sigh*

[Xavian and Deathgrip]

Honestly I must agree with the OP, the Ten Thunders have a really cool aesthetic, one that meshes well with western/steampunk. As Tarantino and so many other film directors have shown, the line between the two is oddly thin. 

I do not think that they fit in the lore however, firstly because of how they have no real "good guys" that you find yourself supporting. They are the worse of the factions, even the Ressers have Reva and Molly, and Kirai is debatable. The only other factions that lacks a "hero" master is the Outcasts(!). As well they never seem to screw up. Things just seem to go their way all the time, while the other factions (other than Gremlins) are constantly in bloody struggles for power. Winning and losing at random is what they spend their time doing. The Thunders? They always seem to come out on top, and if they do fail it's because it was all part of a master plan. 

I hate that previous trope, it has to be done very well for me not to grow annoyed. There are so many different and random things that one must plan for that one cannot plan for it all. History's great manipulators weren't the people who could predict things like this. They were the people who could convince others that they could. Take Keith Ledgers Joker (Rest in Peace) the character pulled off heavily guesswork plans, but he plans had a relatively small amount of moving parts, as well as many contingencies. As well his only goal was to kill people and cause chaos, and he really didn't care how he pulled that off. 

As I said, I like their design, but their lore is really, really poor. How does a crime syndicate have century old mythological monsters anyway? If there are all sorts of the things earth-side then why doesn't the Guild bring them in?

[Gnomezilla]

50 minutes ago, Xavian and Deathgrip said:

As I said, I like their design, but their lore is really, really poor. How does a crime syndicate have century old mythological monsters anyway? If there are all sorts of the things earth-side then why doesn't the Guild bring them in?

That's...actually a great question. It probably comes down to a cost/benefit analysis. The new Governor-General brought a host of bean-counters with him and his current right hand in the Guild has no idea what you'd do with a bean other than count it.

[Tokapondora]

Weren't there some miniscule breaches across the Three Kingdoms for centuries that had some monsters slip through over the years and taint the world around it or something? And the TT are more than just a gang, it's essentially ancient houses playing in the shadows. In any case, I'd say the Ten Thunders are in a perfect place to have the largest overview of the machinations across Malifaux and are handling that with a very slow build up. They haven't had any "big" plays yet and with that aren't as "punished" as some other factions might be. Doesn't mean they're above failure, it just means failure is a possible outcome calculated into their plans and I'm imagining if the risks are too great they'd rather sit on it for a while. It's all just build up, and in working through nudging the circumstances in their favour rather than forcing immediate results they avoid big losses. It's when the stars align and all the pieces fall into place that they need to show their hand and it's at those times that they could succeed/fail/etc. Which I'm really looking forward to.