End of Year TT Thoughts

[GoldenWG]

With the tournament season coming to an end and all the new wave models getting ready to shift TT, I wanted to take the time and reflect on my experiences with TT over the past year.

 

The easiest way to start is by discussing where I see the masters.

To me Shenlong and McCabe are by far the strongest in a variety of schemes. I am a huge fan of the Shenlong sniper build in reckoning/collect games. There is often enough in the scheme pool to score between 4-6 points and since the list does not lose on collect or Reckoning, it is enough to pull ahead. McCabe is flexible enough to cover the stake/interference/squatters rights games. Both list can also be built to play the other strats. Overall, these two are best in faction right now.

 

With Shenlong and McCabe being overall the best, we do have masters that are great at specialized roles. Lynch is great at guard and turf war. His burst kill and all the TT models that synch so well with him often means he is in a game or two for me at an event. He tends to do better when needed then the more general McCabe/Shenlong builds in the right pools. 

The most surprising master that I have added over the last few months is Mei. I think vent steam is such a game breaking ability when played into the right match. I have often dropped her into guild or ressers and she dominates the game by walking and venting twice. I have tended to the death ball build over the summoning one. She is a gamble. Sometimes you expect Sonnia and get lady J.

I like Yan Lo a lot and think some of the new models will boost him in TT, just not there just yet. Misaki is just not special. She dies easily and her kill potential is not great enough to offset her easy to kill nature. 

As a faction TT is in a great place. The faction has a strong balance of masters and strong pieces. We seem to be strongest in the 4-6 minion category and power support pieces. TT bros and Tengu are amazing scheme runners and the emassairy and Yu are extremely strong support pieces. We also have high end minions that are amazing.

TT seems to lack the strong henchmen of other factions. In my opnion we currently do not have the quality hench of other factions. Betty helps a lot with that. 

Looking to the future, Asami will slot into that third master spot in events. Shen/McCabe will stay at top, but like lynch there are pools where Ten points is trivial for her. 

I hope this was okay to read. I really just wanted to lay out my thoughts as my Malifaux year ends.

If nothing else, this is still a kick ass game and I am glad a certain world descended into chaos or I may never had found this one;)

[maca1066]

This an interesting discussion and I'd like to join in. This game is awesome and I have really enjoyed it and will be playing again next year and I'm not sure if I am changing faction.

I started in January and have played all master except brewie and got at least 3 tournament games in with all of them.

I concur that McCabe is extremely powerful and on par with Asami who I have circa 10 tournament games in with now, they both can be dropped in most scheme pools and will likely get full 10 points. I hear what your saying about the Shenlong sniper list but it is by far the most boring way to play malifaux and not fun for you opponent so I don't ever do it.  

Lynch is the 3rd most powerful in my opinion and I have played him a lot. the ace in the hole is broken with TT brothers, played a game once with 5 TT brothers and it was horribly for my opponent as he had nothing that attacked Wp (I know he should have had some). the 52 card pickup is also borderline broken. I also use him for the turf/guard the stash games. 

I have had a hard year with Shenlong as I have run him around 10 times and 4 of those games are against UK number one mark which have ended in my defeat. He is good and can really catch your opponent out as he is so flexible but just doesn't quite hit hard enough to be amazing. 

Yan lo is an awesome master in Headhunter style games and has carved a nice niche in my list building. the new minions have definitely bumped him up by giving him more viable options as they are able to operate independently.

Mei feng is also decent and I have carved a nice death ball summoning list that starts with 6 models and pops out 2 komaniu a turn while allowing mei to vent 3 times a turn (4 if yu gives he fast) and between Yu and the kaminachi she never has to walk, ever. she is my auto drop against Guild and against Ressers.

Misaki is surprising as I have won all my games with her but she still feels underwhelming, a good bomb but nothing more. 

Can't comment on brewmaster and I will likely never play him, just doesn't appeal.... Wong should have been the dual faction master

The faction has a great toolbox and can literally do anything. Our minions are our strengths (best in the game). We have decent but very specific enforcers such as emissary, lone swordsman, samurai and Yin. Our henchmen are also very niche but we have some fantastic pieces, Yu, Betty, Toshiro, and huggy (kinda cheating). We have some of the best support pieces in Yu and Emissary, but agree we don't have henchmen like Crutchcisco Ortega and Joss but I think they would be too good in TT and is likely why we don't have a opposite number in our faction.

The main issues with our faction is the steep learning curve and limited synergy/cross master model use (excluding yu and emissary) making the cost entry point higher. However we do have the widest toolbox. I think our toolbox is epitomized in how few mercs you see TT players using, I have only used or though of using Anna Lovelace (min dmg 3 cast at range).

[Piccio]

Talking about GG2016 and latest waves... (sorry in advance if my english is quite bad)

I think my TT gameplan is recently changed a bit thanks to emissary and the new onis.

- ) I think Shenlong is still often the best solution we have due his flexibility and free actions he can give to the crew.

All his triggers have self-built simbols so you don't need any stone, he can push everything (friends, enemy, scheme, mark..) and do interaction as (0) ap, he can be a good hitter of a great healer just when needed. And all this is extremly cheap, paying only 2ss you have access to 4 strong limited.

Including emissary you can fast+push 3 model each turn and draw extra cards.

It's my first choice when I have to kill / drop schemes / do interaction on enemy.

- ) When I don't need kills but board control istead I like to play Mei-Feng, with a summoning Toshiro list. Scrap are very easy to get starting wave3 with Emissary and the foundry-mechanical pork. She usually stay protecting with steam bubble and then go kicking asses under recalled training.

- ) Asami too is an extremly solid choice, she can negate many schemes and cover the middle of the board summoning agressively, good cards draw, great tacticals kit. Weakness are the wp and enemy blastes (she's a launch ramp and you have to stay prettly close to her with your oni before charging). I still need to paint her crew so I haven't play yet on tournament, but my winning streak is quite confortable.

-) I still play sometimes MC.Cabe but I think there are many schemes in the GG2016 when he's just similar to Shenlong but weakest due his mechanic.

For example you can't sacrifice hisself for extra activations otherwise you concede free points in certain schemes. "Take this" is pretty good expecially when the target is still near promises / kamaitachi but I think fast + push + free focus on a good henchman/enforcer is often better than a push + reactivate / sword nimble on a minion. With MC  I'm incouraged to play minion istead hench/enforcer, when hunting party is in the pool should be not a good choice, and then his upgrades don't help to score show of force.

-) I started M2E with Misaki, i really liked her play-stile (a killing machine with great mobility some pushing tricks), had a lot of games with her but I have to admit I stopped her play in competitive match, this because she have no support for henchman/enforcer (often they have the job to "score points"), a killing-only-master doesn't help much scoring strategy/scheme, she lack of flexibility.

-) Lynch, got only 3-4 game with him. I think his weeknes is the lack of mobility, yes he has a great damage-out on a single model, but I think is not the main TT weakness, I really don't know when I should prefer him on another master.

-) Yan, is fun but I want to be sure I have 5 turn to play him, I like his concept and the 0 upgrade from emissary but I still think that is a less competitive than other master.

-) Brew .... is TT too? really?

[qoob]

From the competitive side I would say that an aggressive Shenlong is the solution for most strategies and schemes. In my meta he really isn't good in Interference or Reconnoiter. Nevertheless now we have Asami and she does her job really really good. 

I think she will kick Lynch from my tournament setup  

I have to say I've never played either Misaki, Mei, Yan Lo nor Brewmaster...

McCabe is great. I really really like McCabe in TT. Wild Ones Box? Phenomenal! But unfortunately he has nothing to offer that Shenlong or Asami aren't able to do...It seems so redundant to me. 

[Inquisitor Wall]

I played Shenlong for most of the year, and had some pretty good luck with him.  As others have said, his versatility is where he shines, and I have not found a strat or schemes he struggles with.  The inclusion of the emissary as the year has gone on has been great as well.  However with the release of the emissary and the porkchop, Mei has become fantastic.  The almost free railwalk from the emissary and the bonus Ml attack are huge benefits to her.  I recently have moved back to Misaki who was my go to when second edition started.  I have found her to shine with the new schemes.  While she can easily pull the leave your mark points, her ability to kill a single target has been awesome for things like show of force as removing their henchmen is huge.  The stalking missile with Yu makes it nearly impossible for the opponent to keep everything safe.  I usually try to remove the single model that poses the most danger to the rest of my crew, or a lynchpin to my enemies crew.  

I really feel that this year has helped TT find their place as a faction, and there has been a significant increase in their attendance at events this year.  Really excited to see how book 4 plays out, and I am really happy to see some more models that fit only with certain masters.  

[daniello_s]

I think all TT players should be really happy with 2016 as you got much needed solid summoner Master (Asami) which is nicely combined with other new releases (Obsidian Oni, Jorogumo). You also got very good Minion - Terracotta Warrior, excellent Enforcer (Yasunori) and very good upgrades: Equality and The Peaceful Waters which brought Low River Monk from non-useful to almost must have level.

 

[Yvarre]

I agree with much of what has been said here, and I especially want to highlight the versatility of our toolbox and ability to play the meta with decent counters.  Though I have yet to paint her, I have definitely seen my fair share of folks busting out Mei Feng against Guild, Ressurs, and even Neverborn to great effect.  Throw in Kang in the Ressurs match up, and you take the un out of undead.  I've also seen, though have not done as much so myself, Shenlong fluidly adapting to counter many different strategies.  Against tons of bunched up models?  Try on a little High River Style with Bursts.  Hard to Wound and other minus flips getting you down?  I hear tell there's a river that gets you drunk...  Likewise, McCabe is a great pick for taking out armored, incorporeal, or hard to kill things, and he gets us Austringers which can seriously cripple most scheme runners that aren't slimy lizards.  The release of the Emissary has also greatly aided both of these masters especially.

I've been mostly taking Yan Lo for Extraction and Turf War to mixed effect, and I'm thinking of dropping this for either Lynch, Asami, or Shenlong.  Interference and Reconnoiter have also been giving me trouble, though I've been mostly taking McCabe with tons of evasive doggie scheme runners, who largely seem to be ignored.  I still have to say that my bread and butter is Jakob Lynch, and I've found him quite capable in most strats.  Did y'all know that a fast samurai can blow through a fate deck 1 1/2 times, picking up all the aces, putting out tons of damage, and killing at least one model?  I feel that this is quite rude, but it can definitely cause an opponent to over-commit models to try to kill the samurai turn 1 or 2, making for easy kills for Lynch.  Plus, there's much more busted stuff out there anyways, though I'd personally recommend errata on Walking Fire to say "This trigger may not target a model that has already been targeted during this action."  By and large, I've also had the best luck at denying points with Lynch, mainly because most models key and otherwise tend to disappear by the end of turn 3, and, though killing isn't everything, it is a good way to prevent an opponent from scoring in every strat and most schemes.

I don't think that Lynch has really benefited much from Ripples of Fate, with Yan Lo getting the most love with some new ancestor/retainer models.  Terracotta Warriors, fragile as they seem, might turn out to be absurd in a great many crews.  I'd certainly love to have two Recalled Training turns with a 4 AP Huggy...  Death Contract is certainly nice, though it'd be best with something to eat away at an opponent's hand like Misaki's assassinate trigger (bonus if you get cutpurse to work to eat stones) or Austringer's mask trigger, trading one stone for two or an entire model.  Equality is also a great, versatile upgrade that shines in Show of Force, especially as it can heal or grab cards.  We've also gotten our own horseman, who will especially shine as a high end in a summoning crew, though I'm not sure Mei will want him as she's already committed to Toshiro, the Emissary, and the Porkchop for her summoning list.  I'm actually having trouble figuring out many situations outside of an Asami crew that I'd take a 12 stone enforcer, though stubborn is great against Neverborn and Ressurs especially.  Betty is perhaps one of our best new additions, and I have a feeling she is going to be great in strats that spread out like Stake a Claim, Squatter's Rights, Interference, and Reconnoiter.

All told, there was a definite spike in TT at tournaments this year, taking the top tables with some absurd differentials.  I'm really excited to see how Asami plays out, though I'll need another case to fit all these new Oni, case damn are those death spiders huge!

[Pyrflamme]

Overall I think 10T improved a lot this year. We have a host of good releases as of this fall and more coming up. In fact, I sometimes feel like our excess of good options makes listbuilding hard.

I think the only weak points still remaining is some Masters still feel a little inflexible. I would point at Yan Lo here where I personally find it hard to fit in some of his thematic options due to how expensive all of his synergistic stuff is. Often I don't find myself taking Chiaki (Low River Monks have removal and can now heal) or Yin. Maybe with the Goryo providing a cheaper melee option we might see more flexibility in Yan builds. I think Shenlong is still a little up in the air as well, but I'm eager to try him with the new Rider - it's already a heck of a strong piece and his crew can do a lot of force multiplication with it, with Pushes and Fast, as well as the odd (0) Focus if you don't need the Rider's innate (0)s. Brewmaster may be much better now with Whiskey Golem getting that healing trigger to keep it healthier longer, which may allow it to be taken in more 10T Brewie crews than before and bolster Brewie's poison play in 10T.

[Piccio]

Chiaki is a quite fast incorporeal/manipulative enforcer that's working also for scheming or eventually killing someone in hard to kill with minor buff for koimainu/ashigaru, low river is a cheap fragile healing minion who have to stay in melee to remove conditions. They simply have a different role and a different capability to do or concede victory point.

[anencephalous]

I will play devils advocate here, and argue against the general positivity of the previous posts.I was disappointed with the 4th book TT offerings. We did well out of the 3rd book, picking up arguably the strongest of the Emissaries. Ten Thunders came out of shop with a shaky start, however Wyrd looked to be doing an admirable repair job, but this latest book was much less useful. I like the oni for the cool factor, but I am disappointed with the mechanics. This is partly because they did very little to fix the big gaps in TT game-play, and partly because they don’t synergise at well with the rest of the faction. They feel like an Arcanist master (not in theme, but in that you are buying models really designed just to play with Asami, and Asami mostly wants her own models).

As I see it, the weakness of TT are as follows:

Very little armour penetration:

No help here at all in the 4th wave. We also don’t have any model with a base damage of 4, which goes some way to overcoming armour.

Weak non-support Henchman:

Ohaguro is great, no question about that. But 2 of her abilities only affect Oni, and her movement trick is only with summoning. This means in a normal, non-oni, non-summoning squad, she has three bits of negative synergy. I am not saying she isn't a welcome addition, but it would have been nice if she worked better with the rest of the faction.

Bad cheap scheme runners:

It amuses me greatly how excited people get by Tengu. It is nice that we at least have a bona fide four point scheme runner. The downside, of course, is that they need to work in pairs to move faster than a normal model, and they fall dead to a gremlin sneeze. On a board with any open gaps, or opposing snipers, they are usually dead before they put down a scheme marker. Not as fast as Cooligans or Totts, not as tough as Piglets, Steam Arachnid, or The Winged Plague and more expensive than guild hounds, we arguably have the worst scheme runners in the game.

No way to manage Interference/Reconnoiter or summoning activation control.:

We wanted a summoner. We got a summoner. The summoner has a cool theme and a cool mechanic. Woot! But oh look, she cannot fill the normal Interference/Reconnoiter gap in a faction's lineup. Even if she averages two summons a turn, those summons disappear at an average of 2 every 1-2 turns. This still doesn’t allow TT to compete effectively with the Ressers, Ramos, Dreamer, Somer, (etc.) in a bodies on the table race. We are now the proud owner of the only summoner who cannot guarantee activation control against non-summoners.

No BlasterMaster:

Not having a functional summoner would be okay if we had a blaster mage to solve the problem of out activation. Guild doesn’t have a summon factory, but Sonnia is an excellent solution to swarms of things. The closest we get is Lynch, who doesn’t do blasts, and is short ranged.

The Brewmaster:

The weakest master in the faction, and unlike some of the other weak masters (eg. Willow the Wisp for Zorida), got only the smallest of buffs with Akaname. These guys are useful, but they wont push Brewmaster into viability. Now, before anyone says “But the Terractorra Warriors”…

Terracotta Warriors:

These are TT in name only. Willpower 4, Mimic, Constructs? Oh how convenient, they can cycle off the boring upgrades that allow cross faction hiring on Zorida, Lucian and Levi, as well as the Brewmaster. Tell me, who benefits more from that, TT with a Brewmaster who is never played, or Outcasts with Levi who graces the table at every comp, even post cuddle? That and rotating our upgrades is much less effective than anyone else because…

General Upgrades:

Our general upgrades are pretty bad. Every time I play a faction other than TT, I agonise over upgrades. There are always too many good choices. When I play TT, it is a question of how many models get Recalled Training. Obviously some of the masters get good upgrades, but our generalist upgrades are very limp, and the 4th book offers only Death Contract and Equity, both exceedingly conditional and frankly bland as all hell.

Monks:

I am underwealmed by all four of our monk minions. Wandering River Monks are inferior Silurids. Fermented Monks are probably okay with Brewmaster, but since no one plays him it doesn’t matter, and they are lame without him. High River Monks are terrible, just terrible, and were my vote for model most in need of an upgrade in the faction (unless you could upgrade Ten Thunder Archers a second time). Low River was the one I thought most viable, even before the buff, and now they are very, very strong. This is one of our few genuine wins, I just wish we had got a one or two point upgrade that added something to all the monks in range, so there was more incentive to play them, and more incentive to bring them as a team.

Lack of super-heavy weights:

There are 17 models that cost more than 10 stones, and we are now the proud owner of one, Yasunori. Pitched at the same price point and mobility as the Riders, it provides better than average damage (conditionally), but it lacks the Riders amazing late game durability. There is a lot of excitement about this model, but it really doesn't seem worth twelve stones. How often will this model do something Ama No Zaki wouldn’t do for 3 stones less? (And when you are comparing a model to Ama, you know it isn't going to turn heads). For a model to pay its way in this weight class, it needs to be pretty awesome, and Yasunori doesn't hold a candle to Ashes and Dust, Howard Langston or The Mechanical Rider. Even its damage, which people are excited by, is hit and miss. Assuming you are close to Asami (conditional), you can charge for three attacks, and assuming you hit on at least two of those attacks and flip the right suits (conditional), you can get five attacks. But most of those attacks are on one model, which will frequently be overkill, and with a minimum damage of only three, you could end up hitting five times for five damage against something with armour 2.

So really, we didn’t get a fix to any of our obvious faction-wide holes. We got some oni, who are okay, but really need to work with Asami to be optimised. We got Terracotta Warriors and Akaname, discussed above. Otherwise we got Sun Quiang, who looks fun, but is going to really struggle to find a place in many lineups when we already have Sensei Yu, Shadow Emissary and Lust crowding out the support model role. Lastly we have Goryo, who to be fair are a big buff to Yan Lo, although it is a bigger buff to Resser Yan Lo, because they have far more ways to add adversary than TT do.

In conclusion, I argue that relative to the other factions Ten Thunders have dropped since this time last year. We gained a few useful additions, but nothing like what some of the other factions picked up. Most of the other factions filled a gap in their lineup – Reva for ranged damage, Parker for scheme manipulation etc etc. Sadly ours did not. We have Shenlong, Mei and McCabe for movement and support. Yan Lo and Brewmaster for tarpitting the middle. Misaki and Lynch for single target damage. There is a lot of overlap there and plenty of gaps. These weakness are played out in competition results. The best TT player in this years USA nationals came in at 17th place , and the highest at the UKGT came in at 21. Sure, we have a smaller player base than some factions, but not as small as the Gremlins, who came in 2nd and 3rd in those events.

 

 

 

[Inquisitor Wall]

A few points that make this arguement a bit more difficult is the dual nature of most masters. Mei actually became a really good summoner with sparks, emissary and toshiro.  All of which are great models with her anyway. 

Ignoring armor and low min damage are a difficult one, but there are more ways to give out focus in the faction than in most which can go a long way to circumvent armor. 

I think the argument for the terracotta warriors shouldnt somply be that others can take them so they dont fit in the ten thunders. The upgrade swapping is pretty huge as it allows you to reattach recalled training to a henchman for a second turn of flips, allows sensei yu to swap upgrades in non-shenlong crew, and allows brewmaster to hire his totem. Probably the biggest thing with the terracota warriors is the acess to misdirection. Being able to prevent an attack on your masyer by discarding a card is pretty huge. The low Wp is a bit out of the ordinary in the faction, for sure. 

I really like the idea of a monk upgrade. That would be a great incentive for players to use more of them. 

[EnternalVoid]

One quick thing, Zoraida cannot take the Terracota warriors even though they are Wp4.  She can only hire Living Wp4 as mercenary, not constructs.  Just wanted to throw that out as I doubt they made them Wp4 for her.  I suspect they made them Wp4 to make them easier for people to interrupt instead as a counterpoint.

[Kbonn]

As the TT player who came in 17th at nationals, I will tell you, I've been playing Mali for about a year now, the championships were my 3rd Malifaux tournament and I only had the following models painted and availible for use.

Shen long, 2 peasants, sensei Yu, shadow emissary, lust, 2 katanaka snipers, 1 illuminated, 2 Jurogumo, Katamatchi, Luna, McCabe, 3 guild hounds, 1 austringer, Dawn serpent, Yin, 1 Samurai

So, my choices were rather limited.   That said I played shen 5 times, McCabe once.   I went 3-3 with all of my loses being 1-2 points, I wasn't out of any game until the final turn ended. My worst was stake game, since I was against marcus leap crew and fell being on stake.

 

Taking this as an example of anything, isn't appropriate.   

Comparing us to Gremlins isn't appropriate, as Gremlins have one of the top 3 masters in the game and he can be used in 80%+ of games.

The biggest thing TT lack is that be-all end-all master for the faction that some others tend to have, like Somer, like Sonnia, Like (old)Levi (perhaps now Jack).  Where you can just learn one master who is so solid you can play it in 4/5 games and be in a solid situation.   Our best comparison to that is Shen Long, who while solid, is simply not on the level of the others.

Wave 4 is just fine for TT, we got a Master that will surely be in our top3, a "rider", and Terracancer, who is solid with most of our masters.

[anencephalous]

Gremlins have lots of good masters. The second place player Riccardo Neri apparently used a bunch of different Gremlin masters (I think I read Ophelia, but I cannot find where I read that), while the third place player just used Zipp.

I wasn't actually comparing us to directly to Gremlins, who have their own play style, I was merely observing that despite being the smallest faction, they are very competitive, unlike TT.

However, since it was bought up, I think the Gremlins are a good example of a faction with a spread of diverse masters. They have summoners, a blaster mage, a shooter, a melee, and multiple  support/control/debuffers. That isn't a bad spread. It certainly covers more master archetypes than TT has.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The highest at one event came in 17th, but if you look at the collected tournament reports from the UK rankings TT is one of the cumulative highest placing factions all round (as in counting placings on podiums, along with NB and Outcasts, followed closely by ressers. At least the last time I tabulated results. TT are not in a bad spot at all.

[Patzer]

On 2016-12-03 at 2:55 PM, anencephalous said:

No BlasterMaster:

Not having a functional summoner would be okay if we had a blaster mage to solve the problem of out activation. Guild doesn’t have a summon factory, but Sonnia is an excellent solution to swarms of things. The closest we get is Lynch, who doesn’t do blasts, and is short ranged.

 

Misaki is the blaster master! Albeit she does it at close range, needs Recalled Training, and preferably non-htw targets in order for it the be effective. Yet, she can really get a lot of AoE damage if played correctly.

[Piccio]

@anencephalous Riccardo played Zipp almoust and Ulix in 1-2 match.

He decided to go Gremlins because peoples said they were less competitive than other faction.

We tested together Zipp a couple of times before Nationals. It's really solid avoiding you "doing things" forcing you to waste a lot of activations.

Ulix is a pain for interference, Wong spread damage is ridicolous.

[Eclipse]

In the end of the year our Ten Thunders are sitting in a better place still. Let me elaborate concerning this as well as the matter of Masters, models, etc. being discussed above.

Masters
We have a level of overlap in some of our Masters as already discussed, but also some subtle differences that change the game with each and every one of them:
Scheming/Support: Shenlong and McGabe are very flexible and I would argue that the former is the more flexible of the two as he can make literally every model in the faction (and quite a few mercs) generally better. McGabe brings a toolbox of solutions, cheap activations and the dreaded (or at least hated Austringers). I don't really feel like I need to elaborate on these two. They are also solid enough to fight the good fight if necessary, too.
Tarpitting/Control: Yan Lo and Brewmaster are great in their own way but require more time to learn their intricacies and apply their strengths better.
Yan Lo can power up and becomes increasingly flexible (and durable). He also has the choice of durable, recurring and varied Ancestor models and access to the Ashigaru (defensive) and Goryo (especially awesome). He can heal and deal a little bit of damage and in addition can develop to be a battlefield commander or melee beatstick. The additions from the last two books have totally turned around my perception of him and have caused to try again and again to break his toolkit Among those are the Emissary, Goryo and Terracotta Warriors (combined with Kamaitachi).
The Brewmaster is said to be the worst or weakest Master in the game even more often then Yan Lo and probably as much as Lucius. This stems from people not taking (considerable) time to understand and apply his toolbox. His strongest point isn't delivering Poison or activating Drinking Contest, but rather tagging a model or two in the turn with or even  to everything until EoT. The Obey gives additional flexibility as he can transfer AP while he orders the crew around (or even enemy models to get them out of position) while Binge makes the opponent cringe when discarding cards. He has enough mobility with his other (0) that also gives Poison - surely that can be useful one way or another Finally, Terracotta Warriors are a partial solution to a number of his problems: Expensive and almost always 'hire Tri-Chi Gremlins' upgrade, the Durability of the Whiskey Golem, the need for Misdirection with a tight number of soulstones.
Killing: This is easily the domain of Lynch and Misaki. They are both combat oriented but have other tricks as well. Lynch and Hungering Darkness have a plethora of manipulation abilities - cards, actions etc. are partially under their control. In addition, they can tear models apart easily. The added mobility of Ten Thunders really helps Lynch and his slow speed and fragility. Misaki on the other hand is already mobile and killy, but this can be brought to even greater heights. She also has the option to blast other models (albeit in melee) as well as the rarely used Downburst tactical action that can change the field considerably!
Counters: I would put Mei Feng and Asami here. They are fast and slippery enough to give trouble to any opponent while also having access to unique tools to disrupt the opponent. I have no experience with Asami yet but I can see a lot of potential in her mobility and her summoning, which is more of a blend between tar-pitting and nuking.

Henchthings, Enforcers, Minions
We have a wide variety of Hench(wo)man models that give interesting options. The fact that they are not always auto-play type of models seems to sit badly with a part of the player base though. Almost none of the options here blow me out of the water, but have been fun and varied enough to keep me experimenting and enjoying the faction so far. Obvious favorites here are Sensei Yu and Kang, but I feel that Ama no Zako, Ototo and Fuhatsu (especially after his latest upgrade) are undeservingly misrepresented. I expect many will try Ohaguro Bettari, but not all will find her good simply because she won't fit everyone's playstyle.
My favorite Enforcers are the amazing Shadow Emissary and surprisingly for some, the flexible and fun Samurai. Despite what people have said about the Ancestor models I've never gotten to like any of them except Chiaki, and not for the same reason most people do - I like her as a fast (incorporeal) and relatively cheap scheme runner first and foremost rather than for her utility. We as a faction have quite a few heals or self-heals as well as varying degrees of Armor+1/2 to mitigate damage or restore Wounds. I wonder if Sun Quiang will find his place in TT tables at all - he seems more like an option for Resser Yan Lo to me. Yasunori is the big addition here as he is something we have lacked from the start - a very expensive beater model. Unlike other riders he can and will strike on Turn 1 with the mobility we can provide to him. Not to mention that he has Flight, which is frankly a godly ability in the right circumstances.
We have had some very solid expensive minions - Katanakas, Illuminated, the Dawn Serpent (insane scheme running!), as of late the Jorogumo as well. The models from Wave 1 were interesting but their design seemed somewhat all over the place compared to other factions' specialized models. Not only was this addressed at later time by Wyrd (thumbs up!), but more cheap minion options were added as well. Now I can finally say that I have options I have to choose and would like from at 4ss and 5ss. The Yokai and Terracotta are especially interesting here, giving so many flexible and fun options. Akaname are Brewmaster mainly, but I expect Asami and eventually Shenlong might find a use for their Poison and Scheme Marker shenanigans.

In conclusion
I am happy with where we sit this year because issues have been addressed, gaps have been filled, flexibility and options have been added. The reason why we don't have the 'be-all, end-all' Masters and probably other models is simply because we can take anything and amplify it to a whole other level. Do you really want, say, a TT Ashes and Dust that can be brought to a higher level? I hope not. That would be bad design, creating things that can be broken further would destroy the current efforts that Wyrd have put in balancing the game.

[BigHammer]

17 hours ago, Patzer said:

Misaki is the blaster master! Albeit she does it at close range, needs Recalled Training, and preferably non-htw targets in order for it the be effective. Yet, she can really get a lot of AoE damage if played correctly.

Mei and Shenlong can fill this gap with minimal effort as well, and any model in our arsenal can get some blasts on the go with help from the Shadow Emissary. A Samurai blasting it's Katana with its double focus into a bunch of just-summoned mechanical spiders is both hilarious and horrifying, for example.

[Tris]

On 3.12.2016 at 2:55 PM, anencephalous said:

And I will try to counter argue the devil`s advocate, if I may so ^^

I will play devils advocate here, and argue against the general positivity of the previous posts.I was disappointed with the 4th book TT offerings. We did well out of the 3rd book, picking up arguably the strongest of the Emissaries. Ten Thunders came out of shop with a shaky start, however Wyrd looked to be doing an admirable repair job, but this latest book was much less useful. I like the oni for the cool factor, but I am disappointed with the mechanics. This is partly because they did very little to fix the big gaps in TT game-play, and partly because they don’t synergise at well with the rest of the faction. They feel like an Arcanist master (not in theme, but in that you are buying models really designed just to play with Asami, and Asami mostly wants her own models).

As I see it, the weakness of TT are as follows:

Very little armour penetration:

No help here at all in the 4th wave. We also don’t have any model with a base damage of 4, which goes some way to overcoming armour.

->you are the faction which gives out more focus and other than anyone else in Malifaux, so i think thats the reason for that - more often than not, your min damage is actually medium, or even high if you cheat it - so, the exact same amount of damage as anyone else with armour pen.

Weak non-support Henchman:

Ohaguro is great, no question about that. But 2 of her abilities only affect Oni, and her movement trick is only with summoning. This means in a normal, non-oni, non-summoning squad, she has three bits of negative synergy. I am not saying she isn't a welcome addition, but it would have been nice if she worked better with the rest of the faction.

->her place also works on enemy summons, so at least she can be used as a counter to that. Her real selling point though is the aura to let everyone ignore all def triggers (most other factions only get one model to ignore them for itself) and the ability to charge everything, everywhere (ignoring LoS and being incorporeal). Also, the damage spread is quite good considering, again, focus. I wouldn`t say it`s negative synergy but maybe no synergy for some specific abilities on her card, but she`s still worth it for the actions and abilities that do work.

Also, your incredibly efficient support models are not limited to just supporting stuff, many things in TT pack quite a punch if you take a closer look.

Bad cheap scheme runners:

It amuses me greatly how excited people get by Tengu. It is nice that we at least have a bona fide four point scheme runner. The downside, of course, is that they need to work in pairs to move faster than a normal model, and they fall dead to a gremlin sneeze. On a board with any open gaps, or opposing snipers, they are usually dead before they put down a scheme marker. Not as fast as Cooligans or Totts, not as tough as Piglets, Steam Arachnid, or The Winged Plague and more expensive than guild hounds, we arguably have the worst scheme runners in the game.

->can`t argue with the lack of dedicated cheap scheme runners - but you have some excellent mid-priced schemers (ten thunders brothers for example are arguably at the top here), plus with the plethora of pushes and scheme marker shenanigans some of your models have (looking at Sensei Yu for example) everyone can do it and you might not even need a dedicated runner.

No way to manage Interference/Reconnoiter or summoning activation control.:

We wanted a summoner. We got a summoner. The summoner has a cool theme and a cool mechanic. Woot! But oh look, she cannot fill the normal Interference/Reconnoiter gap in a faction's lineup. Even if she averages two summons a turn, those summons disappear at an average of 2 every 1-2 turns. This still doesn’t allow TT to compete effectively with the Ressers, Ramos, Dreamer, Somer, (etc.) in a bodies on the table race. We are now the proud owner of the only summoner who cannot guarantee activation control against non-summoners.

Interference is not impossible with a lot of pushes and you engaging multiple models at once, granted that you might have to outright kill stuff to compete with reconnoiter - or try to push stuff around a bit, in non-scoring positions for example.

No BlasterMaster:

Not having a functional summoner would be okay if we had a blaster mage to solve the problem of out activation. Guild doesn’t have a summon factory, but Sonnia is an excellent solution to swarms of things. The closest we get is Lynch, who doesn’t do blasts, and is short ranged.

->as others already stated, you have some master who can do the blasting game (Misaki) and the emissary let`s everyone blast away, and, again with focus it`s very likely to get those blasts through.

The Brewmaster:

The weakest master in the faction, and unlike some of the other weak masters (eg. Willow the Wisp for Zorida), got only the smallest of buffs with Akaname. These guys are useful, but they wont push Brewmaster into viability. Now, before anyone says “But the Terractorra Warriors”…

->so, every faction has their black sheep (and it`s not McCabe :p) , nothing special for TT here

Terracotta Warriors:

These are TT in name only. Willpower 4, Mimic, Constructs? Oh how convenient, they can cycle off the boring upgrades that allow cross faction hiring on Zorida, Lucian and Levi, as well as the Brewmaster. Tell me, who benefits more from that, TT with a Brewmaster who is never played, or Outcasts with Levi who graces the table at every comp, even post cuddle? That and rotating our upgrades is much less effective than anyone else because…

->they can still protect your  enforcers afaik, but yeah, maybe other masters get more benefit out of them, because they where in a less favourable spot to begin with...

General Upgrades:

Our general upgrades are pretty bad. Every time I play a faction other than TT, I agonise over upgrades. There are always too many good choices. When I play TT, it is a question of how many models get Recalled Training. Obviously some of the masters get good upgrades, but our generalist upgrades are very limp, and the 4th book offers only Death Contract and Equity, both exceedingly conditional and frankly bland as all hell.

->Gremlins and Outcast also don`t have that many always useful general upgrades, and Guild got them since book 4 (speaking of these `auto take` upgrades), but seriously, Recalled Training is just brutal and helps everyone with everything, and you got that since book one or two.

Monks:

I am underwealmed by all four of our monk minions. Wandering River Monks are inferior Silurids. Fermented Monks are probably okay with Brewmaster, but since no one plays him it doesn’t matter, and they are lame without him. High River Monks are terrible, just terrible, and were my vote for model most in need of an upgrade in the faction (unless you could upgrade Ten Thunder Archers a second time). Low River was the one I thought most viable, even before the buff, and now they are very, very strong. This is one of our few genuine wins, I just wish we had got a one or two point upgrade that added something to all the monks in range, so there was more incentive to play them, and more incentive to bring them as a team.

->Low River Monk could be one of your `bad` cheap scheme runners? plus healing, plus the card draw combo with the emissary - the others don`t seem bad per se, just overshadowed by better options - not that bad for a faction overall, there`ll always be something better, again, every faction has models in that spot.

Lack of super-heavy weights:

There are 17 models that cost more than 10 stones, and we are now the proud owner of one, Yasunori. Pitched at the same price point and mobility as the Riders, it provides better than average damage (conditionally), but it lacks the Riders amazing late game durability. There is a lot of excitement about this model, but it really doesn't seem worth twelve stones. How often will this model do something Ama No Zaki wouldn’t do for 3 stones less? (And when you are comparing a model to Ama, you know it isn't going to turn heads). For a model to pay its way in this weight class, it needs to be pretty awesome, and Yasunori doesn't hold a candle to Ashes and Dust, Howard Langston or The Mechanical Rider. Even its damage, which people are excited by, is hit and miss. Assuming you are close to Asami (conditional), you can charge for three attacks, and assuming you hit on at least two of those attacks and flip the right suits (conditional), you can get five attacks. But most of those attacks are on one model, which will frequently be overkill, and with a minimum damage of only three, you could end up hitting five times for five damage against something with armour 2.

->you`ve got some pretty decent hitters who kill targets above their weight class (Lone Swordsman at 8ss), Ohaguro Bettary helps with the `ridiculous` late game durability of all the riders (and man they fold like paper in the early turns - you can get some pretty reliable first turn charges with TT in general).

Yasunori is a beast and has on average way more killing power than the other riders except for maybe their turn 5 big attacks.

Also, I don`t get what you mean by `his damage is hit and miss`? Howards damage output falls drastically if he doesn`t hit, so does Yasunoris - but Yasunori can stack the deck, and sits in a faction which provides lot of focus and can give him Recalled Training - I adresses the armour problem earlier, you have to consider the plus to damage if you want to see that particular high armour target dead, but everything without armour gets torn apart without effort. The triggers for extra attacks seem pretty reliable with 3 flipped cards per attack in the turn where RT gets popped, and he`s way more mobile with flight than most other heavy hitters.

Comparable models in that price class are imo Howard and Nekima, as most Riders fulfill different roles (Mechanical for example is no DD, and is the most commonly seen of them, with the exception of the Hooded Rider in NB - the other riders don`t see much play as it seems), and A&D is no killer (especially if you consider armoured targets) but very durable and maybe the most expensive scheme runner in the game  (and even his infamous durability through resummoning can be pretty easily shut down by certain models or misplacement)

So really, we didn’t get a fix to any of our obvious faction-wide holes. We got some oni, who are okay, but really need to work with Asami to be optimised. We got Terracotta Warriors and Akaname, discussed above. Otherwise we got Sun Quiang, who looks fun, but is going to really struggle to find a place in many lineups when we already have Sensei Yu, Shadow Emissary and Lust crowding out the support model role. Lastly we have Goryo, who to be fair are a big buff to Yan Lo, although it is a bigger buff to Resser Yan Lo, because they have far more ways to add adversary than TT do.

In conclusion, I argue that relative to the other factions Ten Thunders have dropped since this time last year. We gained a few useful additions, but nothing like what some of the other factions picked up. Most of the other factions filled a gap in their lineup – Reva for ranged damage, Parker for scheme manipulation etc etc. Sadly ours did not. We have Shenlong, Mei and McCabe for movement and support. Yan Lo and Brewmaster for tarpitting the middle. Misaki and Lynch for single target damage. There is a lot of overlap there and plenty of gaps. These weakness are played out in competition results. The best TT player in this years USA nationals came in at 17th place , and the highest at the UKGT came in at 21. Sure, we have a smaller player base than some factions, but not as small as the Gremlins, who came in 2nd and 3rd in those events.

So, as a conclusion, I don`t know why exactly the Thunders don`t fare so good internationally, they are imo a really strong faction with a unique playstyle and feeling to them - they can do it all and are not easy to counter, a very strong option in a competetive environment if played well

 

[Math Mathonwy]

On ‎7‎.‎12‎.‎2016 at 1:29 PM, Eclipse said:

The Brewmaster is said to be the worst or weakest Master in the game even more often then Yan Lo and probably as much as Lucius. This stems from people not taking (considerable) time to understand and apply his toolbox. His strongest point isn't delivering Poison or activating Drinking Contest, but rather tagging a model or two in the turn with or even  to everything until EoT.

I play him like that and I still consider him weak  

He just has so many counters to him! Condition Removal is super common in my meta and, e.g., Chiaki just neuters Brewmaster (and I seem to face her a lot when playing Brewie).

I really want to like him and I've played him quite a bit and I can win with him but I still consider him the second weakest Master in the game (quite a bit better than Lucius, though!). I also dislike the fact that the more you go against the grain when playing him, the better you'll fare. The less emphasis you have on Poison, the better, essentially. And yet we got Akaname *sigh*

[Eclipse]

18 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I play him like that and I still consider him weak  

He just has so many counters to him! Condition Removal is super common in my meta and, e.g., Chiaki just neuters Brewmaster (and I seem to face her a lot when playing Brewie).

I really want to like him and I've played him quite a bit and I can win with him but I still consider him the second weakest Master in the game (quite a bit better than Lucius, though!). I also dislike the fact that the more you go against the grain when playing him, the better you'll fare. The less emphasis you have on Poison, the better, essentially. And yet we got Akaname *sigh*

I haven't really faced a lot of condition removal with him, so this might be why he has been quite fun (and useful) for me. Well, to play the Devil's advocate further, forcing the opponent to remove the condition with Chiaki or whatever -does- count as some minor activation control and potentially pseudo-discard in my book Not to say that Brewie isn't weak, per se. But the 'omg, fun!' factor is still there (unless there is condition removal T_T).
Akaname can smooch the Poison he gives out as by-product of his actions and do something useful with it like dropping a scheme marker. I'm not even sure they were designed to support Brewmaster, although they enable his 'Poison' stuff a little more: Yokai place within 3" when you lower not only Flicker, but Poison as well - so that's one synergy I'll be looking forward to exploring.
And are you really singing the 'Lucius sucks' tune, too? If I ever get to play with you I'd love to prove you very wrong

[Math Mathonwy]

1 minute ago, Eclipse said:

I haven't really faced a lot of condition removal with him, so this might be why he has been quite fun (and useful) for me. Well, to play the Devil's advocate further, forcing the opponent to remove the condition with Chiaki or whatever -does- count as some minor activation control and potentially pseudo-discard in my book Not to say that Brewie isn't weak, per se. But the 'omg, fun!' factor is still there (unless there is condition removal T_T).

He is a lot better if the opponent doesn't have any Condition Removal but even then he spends his turn debuffing an enemy or two when another Master would spend their turn killing those same enemy or two (possibly while Summoning an ally or two!). Also note that pseudo-activation control is a cold comfort when an Enforcer trumps my Master, though I do appreciate the sunny outlook on life (too much negativity these days!)  

1 minute ago, Eclipse said:

Akaname can smooch the Poison he gives out as by-product of his actions and do something useful with it like dropping a scheme marker. I'm not even sure they were designed to support Brewmaster, although they enable his 'Poison' stuff a little more: Yokai place within 3" when you lower not only Flicker, but Poison as well - so that's one synergy I'll be looking forward to exploring.

True but he is in the Gremlins section of the book, dammit!  

1 minute ago, Eclipse said:

And are you really singing the 'Lucius sucks' tune, too? If I ever get to play with you I'd love to prove you very wrong

I doubt you'd be able to! I mean, it would be entirely possible that you would win but I doubt that I would be convinced that Lucius doesn't suck  Only if you managed to win against me with Lucius and then lost to me using someone else you're very familiar with that does the same sort of things (Dreamer, Collodi, Colette or someone) would I be convinced, I guess.

Oh, and Lucius sucking doesn't mean that he is hopeless even in a match-up between players of equal skill. I just do honestly think that he is the weakest Master by quite a margin in the game but Malifaux is pretty well balanced so that "quite a margin" is still far less than a margin in a different game might be.

...And if you understood that last sentence, more power to you!

[Eclipse]

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

...though I do appreciate the sunny outlook on life (too much negativity these days!)  

True but he is in the Gremlins section of the book, dammit!  

Amen!

 

...And if you understood that last sentence, more power to you!

Rapture and Andrew Ryan offered Power To The People. You offer more power to Me. Your offer is vastly superior

[anencephalous]

@Tris

->you are the faction which gives out more focus and other:+fate than anyone else in Malifaux, so i think thats the reason for that - more often than not, your min damage is actually medium, or even high if you cheat it - so, the exact same amount of damage as anyone else with armour pen.

Yes, we do get more + than other factions. By taking Shenlong. Outside of Shenlong we have Recalled Training, and a few models that get an extra focus very occasionally. I can play a game with most of our masters and get no more extra flips than popping Recalled Training. Recalled Training is good, very good in fact, but it is no substitute for armour penetration. In our meta, when you have Recalled Training on something, the opponent tends to keep high cards to counter it. Even if you hit, you are using all your high cards to land the attacks, so you cannot cheat down good damage. You can have a fast, Recalled Izamu charge Joss, and with a 1/2/3 damage track, Joss will try not to conceal his contemptuous smirk, while returning 3 damage on any of his hits.

{Ohaguro}->her place also works on enemy summons, so at least she can be used as a counter to that. Her real selling point though is the aura to let everyone ignore all def triggers (most other factions only get one model to ignore them for itself) and the ability to charge everything, everywhere (ignoring LoS and being incorporeal). Also, the damage spread is quite good considering, again, focus. I wouldn’t say it`s negative synergy but maybe no synergy for some specific abilities on her card, but she`s still worth it for the actions and abilities that do work.

As I said - “Ohaguro is great, no question about that.” You don’t have to sell me on the model. I was just pointing out several of her abilities are designed for the new master, and that the anti-synergy was one of the most disappointing things about the new book (a. weak b. non-synergistic). You get a lot more bang for your buck with Asami than you do with any other master. That is annoying.

Also, your incredibly efficient support models are not limited to just supporting stuff, many things in TT pack quite a punch if you take a closer look.

Our lower end and mid price models are fine, sufficiently punchy for their stones. Our damaging Henchmen, however, are generally considered to be below par. Sidir, Ototo, Ama No Zako and Fuhatsu are all generally considered underpowered for their cost. I can go through each one at length if you like, but I would be rehashing things already pretty well discussed.

->can`t argue with the lack of dedicated cheap scheme runners - but you have some excellent mid-priced schemers (ten thunders brothers for example are arguably at the top here), plus with the plethora of pushes and scheme marker shenanigans some of your models have (looking at Sensei Yu for example) everyone can do it and you might not even need a dedicated runner.

Our mid cost scheme runners and flankers/anti-scheme runners are fine. Which is why I dint list them as a weakness. However the pushes are rarely a factor. If you are doing something that needs to put scheme markers on the side, it is nice to have an extra push and fast from someone. But usually that push/fast is reserved for a key model, and once you are on the flank, you are alone putting down markers and playing with the opponents runners/flankers.

Interference is not impossible with a lot of pushes and you engaging multiple models at once, granted that you might have to outright kill stuff to compete with reconnoiter - or try to push stuff around a bit, in non-scoring positions for example.

Interference is not literally impossible against a summoner, but against a skilled player, you are going to struggle. Rarely can your master remove models as fast as they add them, which means activation control as well as numbers. That means they are the ones moving last, tying up models at the end of the turn to prevent you scoring.

->as others already stated, you have some master who can do the blasting game (Misaki) and the emissary let`s everyone blast away, and, again with focus it`s very likely to get those blasts through.

I really struggle to see how Misaki belongs in the same category as Wong, Sonnia and Rasputina. She does have an aoe attack, but if you use it, you lose a + to attack and damage, so it is only really useful once per game, in the recalled training round. And, in case anyone was really confused, she is is a melee model. Can you clean up a bunch of summoned models with her? Sure, if you want, once. Is that the same as standing back behind a tank wall and cleaning up summoned models? Hells no.

Focus with Emissary looks great on paper, but in my experience it is very hard to use. If you focus just to try and get down a blast marker, you have spent two activations that can be foiled with a miss or a min damage flip. It can occasionally be great, allowing you to turn a strong hand into good aoe damage, but across the course of a normal round of flipped cards, focus/attack will rarely net you more damage than attack/attack. It is certainly not a solution to a summoner with half-decent positioning.

->so, every faction has their black sheep (and it`s not McCabe :p) , nothing special for TT here

Sure they do, and we can discuss those weak masters in their own faction forums. This is an end of year TT health check, which I was discussing in the specific context of the 4^th book. The 4^th book focused on rebalancing, and several masters - eg. Zorida, Lucius and Ulix, got a significant buff. The Brewmaster didn't. My main contention is that we didn't do very well out of the 4^th book, compared to the other factions, so our relative strength is weaker. Perhaps I didn't make that clear enough.

->they can still protect your enforcers afaik, but yeah, maybe other masters get more benefit out of them, because they where in a less favourable spot to begin with…

Levi is less favourable than Brewmaster? In which universe? There has already been on awkwardly written errata to stop a pretty obvious interaction between Rusty Alice and the Terracotta, but even without this outrageous rort, he is still the main winner here.

->Gremlins and Outcast also don`t have that many always useful general upgrades, and Guild got them since book 4 (speaking of these `auto take` upgrades), but seriously, Recalled Training is just brutal and helps everyone with everything, and you got that since book one or two.

Firstly, I would take Scramble, Oath Keeper, Dirty Cheater and Stilts if I could have them. Secondly, that we have only Recalled Training is exactly my point. What I wanted was more meaningful choice for upgrades, which we didn't get.

->Low River Monk could be one of your `bad` cheap scheme runners? plus healing, plus the card draw combo with the emissary - the others don`t seem bad per se, just overshadowed by better options - not that bad for a faction overall, there`ll always be something better, again, every faction has models in that spot.

If you are using the Low River Monk as a scheme runner, you will find he is terrible. No movement tricks, cannot skirmish with other scheme runners, and no marker placement or manipulation. His self-healing is worse the further away he is from other models, and his sexy new heal is dependant on range and vision from someone with the upgrade. Since his condition removal is a melee attack he cannot do it on himself. He does cost 4 points, but if you are calling him a viable scheme runner, we can say we have the TWO worst scheme runners in LRM and Tengu.

Yes, all factions have bad models, and because it is very boring to have models that stay on the shelf because no one ever plays them, they tried to fix some of those in the 4^th book. I am discussing how well they achieved this in TT. Given we have a whole class of under utilised models (monks), they missed an opportunity to buff them in one go. I also submit that High River Monks would be one of the least used models in the game, which is especially notable because they come in a box with our most popular master and henchman, so everyone has three of them. At least if you didn't like the other monks, you didn't have to buy them.

->you`ve got some pretty decent hitters who kill targets above their weight class (Lone Swordsman at 8ss), Ohaguro Bettary helps with the `ridiculous` late game durability of all the riders (and man they fold like paper in the early turns - you can get some pretty reliable first turn charges with TT in general).

Yes we do, which is why I didn’t list “mid weight fighters” amongst our weaknesses.

Yasunori is a beast and has on average way more killing power than the other riders except for maybe their turn 5 big attacks.

Also, I don`t get what you mean by `his damage is hit and miss`? Howard’s damage output falls drastically if he doesn`t hit, so does Yasunoris - but Yasunori can stack the deck, and sits in a faction which provides lot of focus and can give him Recalled Training - I adresses the armour problem earlier, you have to consider the plus to damage if you want to see that particular high armour target dead, but everything without armour gets torn apart without effort. The triggers for extra attacks seem pretty reliable with 3 flipped cards per attack in the turn where RT gets popped, and he`s way more mobile with flight than most other heavy hitters.

His damage is hit and miss because it is on triggers, and triggers requiring suits. For example, Howard and Yasunori stand toe to toe. Howard is attacking 3 times a round for 4 min damage, with a 7 attack vs 5, and there is a 1-in-4 chance on each hit you have to spend stones or cards to avoid the execute. Yasunori is attacking, potentially, 4 times a round at 6 vs 5. Even if they both hit everything, Howard’s min damage is 9, and Yasunori's min damage is 8. But Howard only needs to land 3 hits to do that, while Yasunori needs to land 4. And here is where the hit and miss comes in. If you fail an attack with Yasunori, you are potentially losing two attacks, because your multiple attacks are triggers, not guaranteed. You do get an extra flip, but it needs to be both the right suit AND higher than your opponents card, which means usually you are going to pick the highest card every time (unless they have no cards left). To get the extra attack you might have to spend high cards cheating over your own flipped high card. On a perfect round, Yasunori does good damage. On a normal round you don’t get 4 attacks, and he does okay damage.

With recalled training on Yasunori, it looks a little better, but with a potential 4 attack duels to win, you cannot spend your high cards on damage, so you are still hitting for 2 or 3 most of the time. If we take Imbued Protection or Imbued Energies on Howard, you will be getting at least as much bang for your buck.

Yes, Yasunori can come it with fast and possibly focus. But Howard can come in with 3 extra attacks a round with Colette, Ramos or Marcus, so I know who I think gets the better support!

Comparable models in that price class are imo Howard and Nekima, as most Riders fulfill different roles (Mechanical for example is no DD, and is the most commonly seen of them, with the exception of the Hooded Rider in NB - the other riders don`t see much play as it seems), and A&D is no killer (especially if you consider armoured targets) but very durable and maybe the most expensive scheme runner in the game (and even his infamous durability through resummoning can be pretty easily shut down by certain models or misplacement)

You are correct that not all the riders see play, and I did say that that was the problem with the super-heavy weights, at that cost they need to pretty amazing to make it to the table. You see Howard’s, Nekimas, and Ashes and Dust because they have the requisite amount of awesome. Yasunori, on the other hand, I cannot see clearing the bar, I just don't think he offers enough for his price.

So, as a conclusion, I don`t know why exactly the Thunders don`t fare so good internationally, they are imo a really strong faction with a unique playstyle and feeling to them - they can do it all and are not easy to counter, a very strong option in a competetive environment if played well

Thunders are literally the least unique faction in the game – we have only two masters that another faction does not share. To be fair Asami and Shenlong are fun, with interesting mechanics, but we cannot possibly be called unique. We have two things that define our style – pushy/fast, which is usually dependant on Shenlong or the Shadow Emissary; and positive flips, which is usually dependant on Recalled Training. The 4^th book did not change our style at all, and most importantly, it did not add much depth or diversity to our roster. Obviously more models means an increase in objective strength, but as we didn't do as well as other factions, we have lost relative strength. People often say Thunders are hard to counter because we could play so many different sets of models. This is entirely true that we have access to lots of models, and but unfortunately none of them are a good match for summoners, so there is your easy counter.