Sexism in Gaming

[Talismaniical]

8 minutes ago, Aaron said:

This is a discussion about harassment, which happens. Sharing the experience might help us learn from it.

People who don't encounter won't really help us learn, and can be seen as dismissive. While it is great that many people don't encounter sexism in their communities, that fact is not particularly pertinent to the discussion about the sexism that does happen.

That's why one side, in this particular discussion, does get more weight.

THIS. 

I actually do love that there are people who can speak up and say they haven't experienced things that I have or others have (I think I had a way too long paragraph about it in my most recent post?). I'm happy that there are places where people feel safe. But, facts are that anything can happen anywhere and it's good, even for people who are comfortable where they are, to be aware of other situations. Everything we learn about each other and each other's experiences is a chance to grow and improve our relationships with people everywhere. 

The only reason some people's commentary on things being fine for them is treated as anecdotal is because, in a good number of cases, most of us who have experienced negative situations have been told that it doesn't happen because X person's place is fine. 

10 minutes ago, paradoxstorm said:

 I notice that "girl" has been used as a synonym for "woman" in this thread and yet no one objected to this sexist usage.  Why?  

I use girl because, to me, it's friendlier and less aggressive to use less formal language if possible. I find people respond poorly to formality in sensitive topics. Until I feel like it's necessary to speak firmly, I stick to the gentler terms. 

[Dirial]

24 minutes ago, paradoxstorm said:

It is profoundly important how our sub-culture compares to the culture at large.  

If we are objectively worse than society at large, then we should be horrified and make cleaning our house the only subject of discussion.

If we are objectively better than society at large we should both celebrate our status and use that knowledge to bring more women into gaming.  At a minimum knowing that respectful behavior is the norm will shape the behavior of those who are outside the norm--it will further reduce problem sexism and we can go back to rules arguments.

If more women do become part of the community low levels of problem sexism lose much of their power.  See the comments from the woman earlier in this thread saying the worst part is being all alone--she is spot on.  With a sufficiently large group of women for mutual social support a great deal of mild problem sexism is effectively neutralized.

See, I disagree on the first part. Kinda. I agree that it's fundamentally important to know how our sub-culture compares on an academic level because understanding these phenomena is important. I disagree, however, that "If we are objectively better than society at large we should [...] celebrate our status". I see this as a criteria oriented problem, not a norm oriented one. If there is "problematic" sexism in our sub-culture, it doesn't matter if that's better than what women experience in the rest of the culture. It still means that our work isn't done.

Do you know what I mean? I'm not sure I can express the concept in a foreign language.... It's like saying that the murder rate is below the county average. Sure, that's good, but as long as the murder rate is above zero, it's still too much and we should behave in a way that reduces murders. Does that make my point clearer?

I agree on the second point. More women in gaming would take care of a lot of the issues (same goes for racism, homophobia, etc.). However, I feel that we have work to do ourselves so that more women will want to join our hobby. It's not their responsibility alone to make gaming an attractive hobby for women. That's what the gamers can and should do: Be mindful and attentive towards opportunities to make gaming enjoyable for underrepresented groups.

[Guildenstern]

I've been thinking about this for a bit. Figured I'd chime in with my two cents, maybe it'll help someone.

I've been a gamer for years, starting with D&D, MTG, moving into MMOs when they first came out - yes first, I remember Meridian 59, text based MUDs and UO all fondly. So, when I say the normal joke was the oft quoted GIRL = Guy In Real Life, you have maybe a good idea where I'm coming from. Leaving aside most of the problems caused by anonymity on the internet issues (for those younger, remember we only used to have text to base our idea of what a person 'was' on, no voice chats, for instance), I've always felt like I'm treated as a girl "first" generally, and a gamer second.

That really annoyed me. As I've gotten older, and raised gamers of my own, I've gotten a tougher skin. And a much better, "Oh really? Is *that* what you think?" stare at offending parties  (I'd like to say whilst pwning their tails but I'm not that good). Also, more and more, I'm not alone, either online, or in wargaming circles.

I do think that generally women in gaming tend towards more story driven content, and less competition - but that's both my opinion, and just a very generic generalization. I know women who're more competitive than me, than men. I'm mentioning this mostly because I see this as one of the major factors that is drawing more women to games like Malifaux. There are plenty of other skirmish style games but I don't see the same female presence in them. I think Malifaux is really good at appealing to a wider audience, so other companies honestly should take note of it.

Back on topic a bit more, I have seen discrimination personally. I've been accosted by people who, frankly, were trying to be intimidating or perhaps simply couldn't conceive of a gamer in the shape of a girl. I don't know.

My point is, if you are concerned about this issue at all, and you're a gamer - of any ilk - do NOT let it deter you, get help, bring friends, talk to store owners, whatever it takes to excercise your gaming freedom. If you're a parent, teach your children gaming and etiquette, regardless of gender. If you're a girl, encourage your friends to join you! It's really only this last year of my life I've felt comfortable enough with myself to start talking about my hobby to my friends. And what's surprising? The number of them who understood. The two or three people I spent an hour after church talking about Dragoncon and other geeky stuffs. I never would have known if I hadn't been more open about my hobby.

This is the sort of positive support anyone can do. Obviously, yes, report harrassment of any sort, stand up for others. Education is a powerful  thing.

[Kbonn]

21 minutes ago, Aaron said:

This is a discussion about harassment, which happens. Sharing the experience might help us learn from it.

People who don't encounter won't really help us learn, and can be seen as dismissive. While it is great that many people don't encounter sexism in their communities, that fact is not particularly pertinent to the discussion about the sexism that does happen.

That's why one side, in this particular discussion, does get more weight.

It should get more weight, however, both are anecdotal, as I pointed out earlier.

 

I will say, from reading some posts in this thread, much of it seems to be issues with customers at a store, and not with the actual staff.   I can say I have had issues with other players at tournaments(regardless of system, it is 100% the player, not the game), as I am sure most people have encountered something unpleasant at least once.   I've spoken with several people after games about the way they handled themselves during a game.  If you see improvement, then great, if you don't, comments go to the store owner rather than the individual.  I also encouraged people to simply concede games against certain individuals who were known to be overly aggressive or cheaters.   That gets the SO's attention, because the next step is a refusal to attend events if certain people are present, and they would never want something like that to occur, so people get banned. 

I've had to deal with plenty of insults and other unpleasant situations, though they were never focused on gender and were never sexual in nature.  But it can still be a pain to deal with the situation.  Ideally, if you have a problem with a person, your local community can help, if it is with more than one, the store owner can help, if it is with staff/owner, the internet can help.  Most people ARE good people and will help you.

We shouldn't privilege insults or offensive jokes of a sexual or gendered nature, when they can all be hurtful, regardless of subject matter.  Most of what you would do to correct the situation shouldn't/wouldn't change due to this.   The main issue I see with this, is that young women(or older women), can feel a bit more isolated in these positions, because most of the community are men or boys, and almost all of the staff will be men or boys, so correcting the situation is harder/riskier.

 

At least in my own case, I know age can play a factor.  I was generally less considerate of others when I was younger, we all tend to start out life incredibly selfish(as a baby), and get less so as we get older.  So if the people making you feel uncomfortable are not responsive to you letting them know this, Find the community leaders in your store(who are often a bit older), and ask them for help.

Lastly, none of this is about anything that could be considered a crime or anything physical, those issues are far more serious.

[Squirrelich]

Throwing this out there.
BETTER does not necessarily equal GOOD

Is it BETTER that your favorite RPG character to lost a hand as opposed to losing an arm? Sure. It it GOOD that he lost a hand? Probably not.

If gaming is BETTER or equal to society at large's level of sexism, that's something I guess. But unless it doesn't happen at all in gaming I would not say we are GOOD. And if we aren't good there is improvement to be made, and I think that improvement if worth the effort. Which is why I think the conversation of sexism (and other "ism"s) in gaming is worth having.

[SpiralngCadavr]

20 hours ago, Tokapondora said:

When looking at Wyrd's models and fluff, I'd be hardpressed to find anything I could call racist, homophobic or sexist in the slightest degree.

Yes, some TT units bring vaguely Asian archetypes to the table, but so does every other units. Light exaggeration is a good way to bring some flair to 30mm of unit. 

So... meant to respond to this yesterday.

Nothing I'd say at all regarding sexual orientation that hasn't been covered by representation in this thread, probably nothing I'd call sexist unless you count clothing/image stuff, but racism? Yeah, there's a bit. Most memorably for me, McCabe's story where he talks with Yamaziko has some pretty typical negative stereotypes; and the entire pan-asian concept, while a decent enough reaction to a chinese character design with a japanese name (this is me assuming it, when a footnote and one character entry, was covering for misaki's fan name), plays to an older generation of racism in calling the entire region basically a single culture, the same way african nations or middle-eastern ones are still often lumped together as some sort of homogenous block.

Given Wyrd's general attitude like the fact that they initiated this thread to begin with and that sometimes they do some very nice things with the idea of race, I don't think it was at all intentional, but it's there.

[Math Mathonwy]

2 hours ago, paradoxstorm said:

And there seems to be a deliberate avoidance of degrees of problem sexism.  I notice that "girl" has been used as a synonym for "woman" in this thread and yet no one objected to this sexist usage.  Why?  Such usage in the mid-1970's would have earned you a multi-page telling off, yet today nobody blinks.  It didn't stop being sexist, it just reached the point where very few people care.  At least no one in this discussion cares.

I read a study about this (whether it is customary/appropriate to call women girls or ladies or women): one of the main influences on this was the editor-in-chief of Vogue magazine. When the editor-in-chief changed and the new one wanted a fresh approach, they often changed the way they addressed women and this spread to the society at large. Now, surely there were other reasons (and the editor-in-chief couldn't have a picked a completely inappropriate word and get it accepted by the public at large) but the acceptability consistently fit the change of editor in the magazine.

In other words: things change in fifty years!

[yool1981]

3 minutes ago, SpiralngCadavr said:

So... meant to respond to this yesterday.

Nothing I'd say at all regarding sexual orientation that hasn't been covered by representation in this thread, probably nothing I'd call sexist unless you count clothing/image stuff, but racism? Yeah, there's a bit. Most memorably for me, McCabe's story where he talks with Yamaziko has some pretty typical negative stereotypes; and the entire pan-asian concept, while a decent enough reaction to a chinese character design with a japanese name (this is me assuming it, when a footnote and one character entry, was covering for misaki's fan name), plays to an older generation of racism in calling the entire region basically a single culture, the same way african nations or middle-eastern ones are still often lumped together as some sort of homogenous block.

Given Wyrd's general attitude like the fact that they initiated this thread to begin with and that sometimes they do some very nice things with the idea of race, I don't think it was at all intentional, but it's there.

Yep I don't think it is intentional either.

I must confessed I find the confusion between Japanese & Chinese culture/names/stereotypes very annoying.

Having spent a lot of time in Asia, I just cannot get around it as I would probably do more easily if it was Middle East or Africa (regions I do not know very well).

To me, it is as if you confused the French with the German. We are very different in terms of behaviour, social interactions and values, despite a common cultural crucible.

Additionally, having the Chinese dominated by the Japanese in the background does not ring a very nice historical bell, even if we are talking about Yakuzas influencing the Boxer revolution.

[tomjoad]

The reason the anecdotal evidence of people who have been harassed is privileged above the anecdotal evidence of people who have witnessed nothing is pretty simple. If the "there isn't really a problem" viewpoint is correct, then this is all just a diversion and will sort itself out. Ultimately, no harm no foul. But if "there is a serious problem that is impacting many fellow gamers (or potential gamers)" is correct, then that means people are getting hurt and something needs to be done. The difference is that if people are getting hurt, we're better off erring on the side of believing them and trying to help them. 

This is the similar to the reason "cracker" is not the same kind of racial slur that black, Hispanic, Asian, Arab, and other people hear every day. It's about power. If a Pakistani guy calls me a cracker, or jokes that I can't tolerate spicy food (which is about as serious as stereotypes get against white people), then so what? I can move on. But if somebody calls him a racial slur, it is AT BEST a reminder that he doesn't fit in in America; it can make him feel as if he doesn't belong here. At worst, we have people getting so riled up that they burn down a mosque.

Always remember that you risk nothing, really, by just listening to and believing people dealing with this crap and it can really mean the world to them that people take them seriously and are willing to help.

[Dirial]

6 minutes ago, tomjoad said:

Always remember that you risk nothing, really, by just listening to and believing people dealing with this crap and it can really mean the world to them that people take them seriously and are willing to help.

Well, you risk sharing your status with others but hey.... that's not really a bad thing now, is it?

9 minutes ago, yool1981 said:

To me, it is as if you confused the French with the German. We are very different in terms of behaviour, social interactions and values, despite a common cultural crucible.

Oh, come on! We are totally alike! We all don't like the English! And.... no, that's about it.

Well, at least we stopped sending war ships into the waters of the other nation.

[Kbonn]

39 minutes ago, 7thSquirrel said:

Throwing this out there.
BETTER does not necessarily equal GOOD

Is it BETTER that your favorite RPG character to lost a hand as opposed to losing an arm? Sure. It it GOOD that he lost a hand? Probably not.

If gaming is BETTER or equal to society at large's level of sexism, that's something I guess. But unless it doesn't happen at all in gaming I would not say we are GOOD. And if we aren't good there is improvement to be made, and I think that improvement if worth the effort. Which is why I think the conversation of sexism (and other "ism"s) in gaming is worth having.

That is absurd.  That is like comparing anything above a crime level of absolute ZERO is bad.   The important thing is that we stop repeat offenders and fix things when they do happen, so they will happen less and less.  But it can/will never be absolute zero.    

 

-isms and problems stemming from them can never be 0.  That doesn't mean that  we don't try to do better, it just means an understanding of reality would help when defining our goals.

[admiralvorkraft]

2 hours ago, paradoxstorm said:

I use "problem sexism" deliberately.  The discussion in this thread is far to absolutist in that it treats all forms of sexism as equal and evil.  Yet everyone who has suggested stepping in to defend women against sexist behavior are engaging sexism--coming to the aid of the helpless princess--and viewing such as positive.  Training our sons to hold doors for women and expecting a higher level of behavior when they are with their girlfriend than when they are with their boy friends is sexist---but I expect most of us would endorse this form of sexism.    

And there seems to be a deliberate avoidance of degrees of problem sexism.  I notice that "girl" has been used as a synonym for "woman" in this thread and yet no one objected to this sexist usage.  Why?  Such usage in the mid-1970's would have earned you a multi-page telling off, yet today nobody blinks.  It didn't stop being sexist, it just reached the point where very few people care.  At least no one in this discussion cares.

 

While I advocate direct engagement when you see something (for obvious reasons) this is why I'm actually more interested in systematic changes that make gaming spaces friendlier/more welcoming to women and minority groups. In the old Soapbox thread Nathan shared the story of the original Zoraida model, that she was a response on the part of the company to calls from customers for topless women.

I think that that is an amazing way to respond to sexism in gaming. It's not about creating a legion of gamers to white-knight around "laying out" sexist d-bags, it's about sending a message to these guys that a women's nudity and sexuality (or lack thereof) is not about them. It's about saying to women, "we don't care what you look like, we want you to play with us. As equals."

And yes, in the short term, creating that space means coming to the defense of women when they are harassed or attacked. You don't have to through yourself between a woman and her attacker but you have to have her back when she says, "this is what happened."

In the long term it means that, if you run a gaming store, you have to make choices about what you stock. I have a friend who has strongly considered purging his Malifaux inventory because when he thinks of the game he thinks of the Seamus and Victorias boxes, of what kind of message those boxes send to the men and women that come into his store. I've talked up the feminist side of Wyrd/Malifaux to him and last I checked the boxes are still on the shelves, but I applaud him for taking that level of consideration of his inventory. That kind of thinking needs to be more wide spread if we're serious about welcoming women into gaming spaces. There's no coincidence that in Minneapolis women are more comfortable walking into my friend's store than any other gaming shop in town.

So what can we do? If we don't own a gaming store, if we don't sculpt the models? We can vote with our wallets, investing in games with positive depictions of women. We can treat Seamus on the tabletop like the villain that the fluff depicts him as. We can keep calling out our favorite companies when they print something problematic (like the female Guild Guard model) and applaud them for the things they do well (Rasputina, Molly, Ironsides, etc.) We can point out ways that those with more power to change the gaming landscape can be welcoming of more types of players.

Lastly, this is selfish. I want to play a game set in a richly developed world with dynamic and varied characters. I want to play a game where there are sexualized men, and women like Brienne of Tarth, (and sexy drug pushing women, and sergeants with beer guts). I want to play that game because I'm kind of tired of painting the same cute face on every female model (except Abuela Ortega's wonderfully jagged mug). I want to play a game that is an easy sell to anybody. Where I can walk into a diverse group of people and set down a mini that looks like them-plus so that they immediately have an in on the world of the game.

Why? Because I freaking love Malifaux. It brought me back to minis gaming after years of shamefacedly ignoring the boxes of bare plastic warhammer in my closet. I love Malifaux, and I want everyone else to love it as much as I do. And while that's probably not a realistic dream, there are steps we can all take to get closer to that point.

[Kbonn]

23 minutes ago, tomjoad said:

 

Always remember that you risk nothing, really, by just listening to and believing people dealing with this crap and it can really mean the world to them that people take them seriously and are willing to help.

Incorrect.  Policies get instituted to deal with problems.   Problems should be real before being fixed.  There is and are real costs to these sort of things.

 For example, in Netrunner, a playmat was complained about that featured the macho man randy savage doing a flying elbow drop above an image of Jesus.   This was deemed offensive and the owner was shamed for it.   Another example is the issue of "micro aggressions" during the playing of a game.   I personally enjoy engaging with my opponent during the game.  Particularly if I am new to a game (as is the case in Malifaux),   In netrunner, it is not acceptable to ask a female player how long she's been in the game, as the implication is that she is new(because she is a woman).  This is projection and incorrect.  I often ask people(any person) as I am curious if they are new like me, or a vet.  But, she could complain to TO about this microaggression.   This will eventually lead to people just not talking during games, not socializing after games, and not becoming a community.

Policies can go too far or be too draconian in their solutions to problems.  

 Making sure we verify what the problem actually is.  Is important.

 

I take this matter very seriously, and by default, I trust someone telling their story that it is 90% or more correct.   This does not mean we should just always listen and believe.  Sadly, people have motives that are not always the best.

 

We know that some unfortunate things happen, and more often to women, this does not mean each individual woman's story is truthful.   That would be like saying we should just believe the UVA rape story because we know that rapes do happen on college campuses.

 

We should be supporting of people telling their story and not be hostile to them for telling it.   But this does not de-facto mean every story is true or correct.

 

Personally, I would like to see that any store where an employee or owner was hostile to women, or any other group, be named explicitly so we, as a community of gamers can verify and take some action.

 

[LunarSol]

 

2 hours ago, Talismaniical said:

I'm gonna go ahead and add that being "held sacred" is just as frustrating.

One of the thinnest lines is the world is the difference between treating something that is different equal and special.

2 hours ago, Talismaniical said:

I use girl because, to me, it's friendlier and less aggressive to use less formal language if possible. I find people respond poorly to formality in sensitive topics. Until I feel like it's necessary to speak firmly, I stick to the gentler terms. 

Girl is a weird word because it pertains to youth as much as gender.  It's incredibly context sensitive because in the right context, it implies the kind of open friendships you build as a kid that are really what gaming is all about.  At the same time, it can be used to declare someone's insignificance; reduce them down to a child who is not yet important.  Boy is actually used regularly in the exact same way (see: Guardians of the Galaxy or anything Michael Rooker plays), but there's a gender problem that stems from girl being used to mean "worse than boy" unfortunately.

That said, I think treating girl as a dirty word inherently creates a "held sacred" kind of environment.  Both woman and man are words of individuality and dominance that are ill fitting for forming the kind of social bonds needed here.  I'm playing with toys and flipping cards to see who wins a make pretend sword fight.  Boy seems like a much more fitting moniker.  It's certainly the aspect of my person that's better suited to making friends.

2 hours ago, Guildenstern said:

I do think that generally women in gaming tend towards more story driven content, and less competition - but that's both my opinion, and just a very generic generalization. I know women who're more competitive than me, than men. I'm mentioning this mostly because I see this as one of the major factors that is drawing more women to games like Malifaux. There are plenty of other skirmish style games but I don't see the same female presence in them. I think Malifaux is really good at appealing to a wider audience, so other companies honestly should take note of it.

It's really hard to say.  I don't think the character designs for more combat oriented characters have ever done a very good job of appealing to women and I'm not sure how much that plays into things.  I'd be very curious if this would be true if games didn't so almost universally have the male farmboy swordfighter protagonist.  The few female warrior archetypes that do exist rarely feel like they're designed for women either.  The avatar is an incredibly compelling concept.  It's why modern games are often built around a Master, or Warcaster, or Captain, or Commander.  I personally am of the opinion that what's largely needed to pull competitive/combat oriented women into games of that nature is a good range of characters that they would like to act as their proxy within the game world.  I could be wrong and there could just be some natural aversion to conflict at work; but in my experience people are just too varied for that to be a gender constant.

[LunarSol]

45 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

And yes, in the short term, creating that space means coming to the defense of women when they are harassed or attacked.

Honestly, even this isn't something special.  You come to the defense of people being harassed or attacked.  You'd come to the defense of someone being harassed by the local alpha rule bully too after all.  It's nothing special, its just unfortunately common for a woman to become the target of... well, I guess I'll just call them the immature for now.

Also, I need to get up to the cities more often for gaming.  This isn't really a revelation from your post.  Just sort of a reminder.

[morella]

Wow, so many great posts, too many to quote. 

Regarding the 'gamer girl' term, I am glad someone else brought it up. Honestly, it is a term that didn't bother me much when I was younger, but has become more annoying over the years. For those that don't understand why, there are two things for me that make it a problem. Calling a grown woman a girl can seem infantilizing (tho I agree that sometimes it is meant only as a less formal identifier). The other issue is the way it is used to denigrate other men, which I see all too often in gaming. It equates being female with a whole bunch of negative traits.

Also, I just want to agree that being given 'revered status' is not a compliment. 

[SpiralngCadavr]

A quick aside, on using "girl," there are totally problems with it, but I'm convinced that a decent part of it is really that there's no other commonly used monosyllabic female title. There are a few other options, but they all make you sound like you're actively anachronistic or regional, like lass, dame, or gal. Using more syllables makes it less natural-sounding, since there's always the trend to use shorter or truncated words when they're frequently used. Compare to men, where you've got guy, dude, and even the neutral "man" for a start. Add to that, "boy" has historical connotations that makes it far less interchangeable with man.

[morella]

I agree, in the USA at least, we don't have a suitable feminine equivalent to guys or dudes.

[Dirial]

Interesting. It's the other way around here. "Frau" meaning woman is used way more often than "Mädchen" meaning girl. Might actually be about length or something.

[Talismaniical]

Just now, Dirial said:

Interesting. It's the other way around here. "Frau" meaning woman is used way more often than "Mädchen" meaning girl. Might actually be about length or something.

I'm all for adopting Frau here. Let's do it.

[Guildenstern]

2 hours ago, morella said:

I agree, in the USA at least, we don't have a suitable feminine equivalent to guys or dudes.

Tbh where I grew up, in the pacific nw, we used "guy" for girl or boy (or woman or man). Especially in the phrase "you guys" which the south loves to use in its y'all version.

2 hours ago, Dirial said:

Interesting. It's the other way around here. "Frau" meaning woman is used way more often than "Mädchen" meaning girl. Might actually be about length or something.

I suspect you'd be right, Americans do tend to shorten a lot of things to a single syllable as well, and 'girl' just ends up easier to speak, 'woman' seems to feel too formal. When I'm talking about my friends it's always "girls".

At any rate I could go on and on about language (<3 linguistics) but I don't have any hard proof to offer.

Instead of getting hung up in this girl vs. woman concept and boy vs man etc - why don't we just use "gamer"? No more qualifying it with girl - or boy - or anything. Because that's what I find the most true, we're all gamers here and we all would like to be treated the same.

[huntroll]

7 hours ago, yool1981 said:

Yep I don't think it is intentional either.

I must confessed I find the confusion between Japanese & Chinese culture/names/stereotypes very annoying.

Having spent a lot of time in Asia, I just cannot get around it as I would probably do more easily if it was Middle East or Africa (regions I do not know very well).

To me, it is as if you confused the French with the German. We are very different in terms of behaviour, social interactions and values, despite a common cultural crucible.

Additionally, having the Chinese dominated by the Japanese in the background does not ring a very nice historical bell, even if we are talking about Yakuzas influencing the Boxer revolution.

 I'm sure it's intentional. However in Malifaux's alternative universe China, Japan and Vietnam are merged in one country, and judging by the fact that the Chinese Yan Lo is from the Katanaka clan and he is summoning some of their Japanese Ancestors to further the family's goals I'd say they coexist mostly peachfully and marry between each other. So I doubt there are any Japanese domination of the Chinese in the background. On the other hand the Guild is doing the same things in the fluff like what lead to the Boxer rebellion in the real world. And I'm certain this is not because the people at Wyrd are ignorant about the difference between cultures, but it's a more convenient way to introduce an oriental Faction and include both Chinese and Japanese folklore, mythology and their related tropes. 

[cegorach]

6 hours ago, Kbonn said:

Incorrect.  Policies get instituted to deal with problems.   Problems should be real before being fixed.  There is and are real costs to these sort of things.

 For example, in Netrunner, a playmat was complained about that featured the macho man randy savage doing a flying elbow drop above an image of Jesus.   This was deemed offensive and the owner was shamed for it.   Another example is the issue of "micro aggressions" during the playing of a game.   I personally enjoy engaging with my opponent during the game.  Particularly if I am new to a game (as is the case in Malifaux),   In netrunner, it is not acceptable to ask a female player how long she's been in the game, as the implication is that she is new(because she is a woman).  This is projection and incorrect.  I often ask people(any person) as I am curious if they are new like me, or a vet.  But, she could complain to TO about this microaggression.   This will eventually lead to people just not talking during games, not socializing after games, and not becoming a community.

Policies can go too far or be too draconian in their solutions to problems.  

 Making sure we verify what the problem actually is.  Is important.

 

I take this matter very seriously, and by default, I trust someone telling their story that it is 90% or more correct.   This does not mean we should just always listen and believe.  Sadly, people have motives that are not always the best.

 

We know that some unfortunate things happen, and more often to women, this does not mean each individual woman's story is truthful.   That would be like saying we should just believe the UVA rape story because we know that rapes do happen on college campuses.

 

We should be supporting of people telling their story and not be hostile to them for telling it.   But this does not de-facto mean every story is true or correct.

 

Personally, I would like to see that any store where an employee or owner was hostile to women, or any other group, be named explicitly so we, as a community of gamers can verify and take some action.

 

There's a couple of points I would like to unpack here.

The first is your argument that 'Policies can go too far or be too draconian in their solutions to problems.'. Sure. We all know about the Patriot Act.

The thing is, 'too far' is generally a subjective perspective based on your own level of power and privileged.

Currently, visibly physically harming a woman in front of a gaming crowd is 'too far'. However, veiled sexual slurs, unwanted advances, 'accidental' physical contact, patronising commentary, minimisation of viewpoints and being treated like a freak are all things that we collectively know occur with alarming regularity. These are the things we are currently struggling to communicate as 'too far' to many people.

The counter arguments I hear to this are basically white dudes saying 'I want to do something that may make someone else feel bad and I AM NOT ALLOWED TO DO IT OH MY GOD POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD I SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO WHAT I WANT WHENEVER I WANT HOWEVER I WANT TO THIS HAS GONE TOO FAR.'

I often get the feeling people are equating their own personal minor annoyance at having to do things like rephrase something as being on the same level as a woman being pushed up against a counter and physically groped.

That's what a lot of this whole thing is about. If you're an average white dude, you simply don't realise how easy you have it. Your idea of trauma is being asked to not do something you are accustomed to. And fair enough - if that's all you know, then that can feel pretty bad.

But if you want to be a somewhat evolved human being, it's necessary to think outside your own bubble and be realistic in approaching scenarios you personally may not be familiar with.

I'm deadly serious about rape-related issues. I have never been raped. I have never seen rape. But I have had dozens of people who have experienced it share their stories with me and I have not in my life ever felt as awful as simply LISTENING to them. So that tells me that even though I have no personal experience, and hopefully never will, the magnitude of this event is such compared to my own experiences that I need to drop my own limited views to respect the experiences of others.

And I think that's what a lot of this comes down to. If the guys downplaying these things (and they almost all are guys) sat down in person and heard a dozen of these stories, then I guarantee that apart from a small core of sociopaths, you'd see a lot of this argument fade away. These real stories pierce through the comforting layers of privilege and wake people up.

That's why sharing them as often as possible, and not allowing people to shut them down, minimise them or downplay them, is important.

Which leads to the second point. You said

"This does not mean we should just always listen and believe.  Sadly, people have motives that are not always the best. We know that some unfortunate things happen, and more often to women, this does not mean each individual woman's story is truthful.   That would be like saying we should just believe the UVA rape story because we know that rapes do happen on college campuses. We should be supporting of people telling their story and not be hostile to them for telling it.   But this does not de-facto mean every story is true or correct."

Well yes, this is the case with everything in life. But it's a line of commentary that comes up a lot more frequently in this discussion than it does say in regards to people discussing rules issues in Malifaux.

It is very important that you be clear here whether you are speaking about specific, individual cases or making a general point. You've not made it clear, so when I discuss it please be aware the 'you' I am using isn't directed at you personally but in the general phrasing, as it was above

If you're being specific, then sure, of course. Someone makes a rape allegation about a specific person, that's a legal matter with severe ramifications. Veracity of that individual allegation is incredibly important. But any severe issue of that nature is generally taken care of by law enforcement or similar bodies so I don't see why it's regularly brought up in this discussion. And your final point, about 'naming and shaming' ties into this. It's a dangerous path to do that when it isn't being handled by law enforcement. I don't like the dude running my local LGS? Start spreading rumours about him sexually assaulting people. And I think that was the point you may have been getting at with your comments about veracity, and it's a very salient one.

However, if you're making a general point, well that is something different. Thing is, even if a given story IS false, the problem is you can guarantee that story exists in numerous actual, untold instances. So by raising awareness and acting to rectify you are still moving in the right direction.

Let's use the example that started this all off. Some unsubtantiated claims were made. And the fact they remain unsubtantiated despite polite and safe options to shed more light indicates they probably lack the degree of truthfulness that is indicated. And supporting them were a number of statements about harassment that definitely appear in a few cases to be copied and pasted from other places on the internet.

On the face of it, with no extra information provided, it looks like a bunch of untruths, or at least half truths.

So should we ignore it?

Hell no.

Because even though these things may not have happened to her, we know darn well they have happened to many others - the number of people who have commented to say her post mirrors their experience is a very good measure of this.

And even if you want to assume each and every one of these people is a liar, the actions by Wyrd and the discussions being had around the issue certainly have been (at least here) very constructive in terms of ensuring a positive community spirit.

And ignoring that, taking steps to have a zero tolerance approach to these kinds of harassment - even if each and every example put forward is a fabrication - means that awful things can be prevented.

So when I see this point brought up again and again in this discussion, I really don't get why.

 

 

[Lucidicide]

With that very long post (with too many caps, bring it down a notch!), I'm locking for the night!

[Ookami_Tez]

 

12 hours ago, cegorach said:

The counter arguments I hear to this are basically white dudes saying 'I want to do something that may make someone else feel bad and I AM NOT ALLOWED TO DO IT OH MY GOD POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD I SHOULD BE ABLE TO DO WHAT I WANT WHENEVER I WANT HOWEVER I WANT TO THIS HAS GONE TOO FAR.

Well in the western world at least for now we have freedom of speech and expression. As long as it doesn't violate other persons freedoms. This is why many people hate morality police be they Leftist SJW or Rightwing Religious fundamentalists.

12 hours ago, cegorach said:

Your idea of trauma is being asked to not do something you are accustomed to. And fair enough - if that's all you know, then that can feel pretty bad.

My idea of Trauma is going trough near death experiences or other horrible shit. We are not dump. We just don't like it when people are said mean things on Twitter and they say they have gotten PTSD from those mean tweets. Sorry I just don't buy that.

12 hours ago, cegorach said:

But any severe issue of that nature is generally taken care of by law enforcement or similar bodies so I don't see why it's regularly brought up in this discussion.

Because they gather up mobs of people ready to put up a pyre and burn them before the police and other authorities get their job done. It is usual to bring out death threats on the internet as an example of sexism in this discussion. But there are actual men who have to look out of the window to a 100 people yelling at them because of a crime they hadn't committed. Somehow I find more sympathy for the person hiding inside his home from a mob then the public figure who gets death threats from trolls. (Though I do say death threats should always be sent to the authorities so they can actually handle the situation. Real threat or no. They should be found out and dealt with.)

13 hours ago, cegorach said:

On the face of it, with no extra information provided, it looks like a bunch of untruths, or at least half truths.

So should we ignore it?

Hell no.

Yes. If we have a reasonable doubt about the accusation we should ignore it. And I am not saying people don't get harassed in this community. I just think it is not because of the community. It is because of individuals in the community. As there are in each and every one of the different communities. Online or Offline.