Gaining Grounds 2016 Schemes: A Summary and Thoughts

[BloodBought]

Whoops, my mistake there.  I seem to have missed that all along lol.

[Yvarre]

This was a great comprehensive analysis.  I will say that I've scored full points off of bodyguard in a few tournament games, but I've also seen my bodyguard target vaporized in a single activation and am probably around a 60% success rate with it especially as I've forgotten to position my bg 8" out at times.  Time was only an issue in this scheme at my very first tournament.  In general, schemes that require models to be alive and in position at the end of the game can be difficult against certain crews, and, though it's often a no-brainer, I don't find myself picking Protect Territory against masters like Levi, Sonnia, and Perdita.

I really like how the all or nothing factor has been removed for scoring and how just killing everything and thinking about points later won't work in many scheme pools.  Capturing the nuance of the variety of objectives within a skirmish has been one of the flavorful aspects that I really like about Malifaux, and doing so in a way that makes competitive play more challenging is something I'm really appreciating about GG2016.  Just in the instance of Exhaust Their Forces, that interact can be any number of things- deftly trading blows just to tire them out, casting some kind of spell, telling them some mind-crushing news, an argument that leaves them kind of confused and unsure of their loyalties...  

I also especially like how many of the scheme pools will define new zones of conflict that are in opposition to the strategy.  I'm especially thinking of Show of Force in Interference and Recon, and with schemes like Occupy and Leave Your Mark running around protecting the backfield in a Turf War or an Extraction (when model count matters!) becomes a serious consideration through the game rather than turns 4-5 when you gotta get back there to deny those Breakthrough markers.

Even though I picked up Malifaux in February 2015 and had less than a year with standard schemes in competitive play, I'm glad to have this new puzzle to work out.  I reached a point where I could almost always score full VP from Breakthrough, Vendetta, Protect Territory, Deliver the Message, aLitS, and Plant Evidence, and I can only imagine how trivial many schemes are for players who have been on the scene longer.

[JimTullis]

13 hours ago, BigHammer said:

"This scheme is difficult for x crew" is not, IMO, a valid argument against the scheme. Schemes are determined before crew selection, so if a particular crew wouldn't be a good choice for a scheme pool, simply don't choose that crew for that game.

Not arguing against the scheme otherwise I would have to moan about Reckoning vs Pure Hamelin. It was just an observation.

It would be interesting to know how many MINIONS cost 6 or more.

 

P.S. Not everyone has the Time/Money/Motivation to collect an entire faction. Arguments that start out with "Just change Masters/Crews" are not helpful to new players who just bought a single crew box.

[Shadowfane]

16 minutes ago, JimTullis said:

Not arguing against the scheme otherwise I would have to moan about Reckoning vs Pure Hamelin. It was just an observation.

It would be interesting to know how many MINIONS cost 6 or more.

 

P.S. Not everyone has the Time/Money/Motivation to collect an entire faction. Arguments that start out with "Just change Masters/Crews" are not helpful to new players who just bought a single crew box.

 

On the other hand. new players who have just bought a single crew box probably shouldn't be playing the Gaining Grounds strats/schemes anyway, but rather learning to play the game  

[JimTullis]

4 minutes ago, Shadowfane said:

 

On the other hand. new players who have just bought a single crew box probably shouldn't be playing the Gaining Grounds strats/schemes anyway, but rather learning to play the game  

So, New Malifuax Players who come to Malifaux from another miniatures game and have a good grasp of concepts of miniature games and most of the rules of Mailfaux should be excluded from Gaining Grounds because they only have 1 box?

[Shadowfane]

Just now, JimTullis said:

So, New Malifuax Players who come to Malifaux from another miniatures game and have a good grasp of concepts of miniature games and most of the rules of Mailfaux should be excluded from Gaining Grounds because they only have 1 box?

Yes, because thats exactly what I said...... 

Alternatively, new players (whether they've come from other games systems or not) with a single crew box (which was the parameter you gave) probably won't be playing any tournaments with that one crew box, which is what Gaining Grounds are designed for (it being the template for official Wyrd events and whatnot).  Most official events are designed around fixed faction and the idea that you design the crew after seeing the schemes and strats; so in that scenario, yes, it's not unreasonable for people to be expected to have more than one Master for their faction.

[solkan]

2 hours ago, JimTullis said:

So, New Malifuax Players who come to Malifaux from another miniatures game and have a good grasp of concepts of miniature games and most of the rules of Mailfaux should be excluded from Gaining Grounds because they only have 1 box?

For the record, I attended my first Gaining Grounds tournament with just my Mei Feng crew painted, and barely 50SS worth of painted models. 

The fact that I did so at a disadvantage, because the tournament events were Fixed Faction and I only brought one master, did not exclude me from the event.  Likewise, the fact that I was inexperienced did not exclude me from the event.  Being at a disadvantage does not exclude people from playing the game.  "I don't want to play in this tournament because I would be at a disadvantage" is someone excluding themselves from playing.

If you don't think you're a good enough player to win with Pure Hamelin, you could ask for advice in the appropriate sections of forum concerning bluffing tactics or other ways to improve your game.

[JimTullis]

Oh, I know I'm a good enough player to play Pure Hamelin. I've been at it for a while now. My first comment on the thread was merely an observation that Public Display will be a challenge.

I just don't like Constantly being told to get a new master. I like mine, I win games.

I also don't like being told I should be EXCLUDED for not having more masters.

[Sordid Strumpet]

17 minutes ago, JimTullis said:

Oh, I know I'm a good enough player to play Pure Hamelin. I've been at it for a while now. My first comment on the thread was merely an observation that Public Display will be a challenge.

I just don't like Constantly being told to get a new master. I like mine, I win games.

I also don't like being told I should be EXCLUDED for not having more masters.

I'm sorry but that's simply misunderstanding how Malifaux is supposed to work. In other games - like Infinity for example - you can build a list that is generally good at most things and will only give up a point or two in unfavourable situations if played well.

Malifaux very specifically has you select your crew AFTER you know what schemes are played. Because a master that does everything equally well (scheme running, killing, denial etc.) is too powerful. So a new player who only has one box and a few extras can't play gaining grounds. They can pre-determine schemes they know their crew can do (I started with Ironsides, my opponents were all happy to fudge the pool in her favour while I was learning). Or they can learn how to play a crew that's at a disadvantage and focus on denial, but that might be frustrating for some people.

 

What you're perceiving a as a bug in the system is in fact a feature. It's the only way that people won't just construct one generalist crew that can do everything well. It's the reason you don't see vanilla cookie cutter lists on the internet like for other games.

It would also make the whole range of abilities models have pretty lackluster because something new will be either better than something else or not, so it will either be taken or not. That's when you get power creep because the company who made the model needs to make money, and the only way they can make money is by making you want to buy the thing they just released.

They then have two options - make the things more and more powerful and every year or two reset everything with a new codex/army book/whatever, or they can design models that are very specifically good at things other models aren't good at in certain situations.

I don't know about you, but I think the latter is the more interesting option. And Wyrd is doing an absolutely fantastic job at keeping the game balanced, new and interesting.

As a last note - you say that new players are basically discriminated against because not everything can do everything. They've spent like 60 dollars on some models. What about the people who have spend the last few years buying models? Don't they deserve a little something? Unfortunately the nature of the beast is that often things that favour new players don't help veterans (and I say that as a pretty new player). Veterans need depth and variation. New players need something easy to grasp to get their head around the concept.

Those are sort of mutually exclusive in many ways.

[OneLittleThunder]

4 minutes ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

So a new player who only has one box and a few extras can't play gaining grounds.

I agree with most of what you've said, but this really bugs me. Yes, a new player with one crew box and a few extras absolutely CAN play Gaining Grounds - that's how I started. Will they be at a disadvantage? Sure. Will they win? Probably not. Will they learn a tremendous amount about the game? Definitely. I think that a "you must be this tall to play in a tournament" approach does a disservice to both new players and the community as a whole.

[Sordid Strumpet]

4 minutes ago, OneLittleThunder said:

I agree with most of what you've said, but this really bugs me. Yes, a new player with one crew box and a few extras absolutely CAN play Gaining Grounds - that's how I started. Will they be at a disadvantage? Sure. Will they win? Probably not. Will they learn a tremendous amount about the game? Definitely. I think that a "you must be this tall to play in a tournament" approach does a disservice to both new players and the community as a whole.

you basically said the same thing I said right after the sentence you quoted

11 minutes ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

So a new player who only has one box and a few extras can't play gaining grounds. They can pre-determine schemes they know their crew can do (I started with Ironsides, my opponents were all happy to fudge the pool in her favour while I was learning). Or they can learn how to play a crew that's at a disadvantage and focus on denial, but that might be frustrating for some people.

Furthermore, the first few games I played with Ironsides about a year or so ago while I was learning I completely ignored all strategies and schemes and just learned about mechanics. I "won" the game if I could pull off that thing I planned to pull off before the game, and if I didn't just spend five turns walking my tragically slow oxfordian mages through forests to somewhere they can see a target.
I was playing those first few games against an Ortega crew, so it definitely wasn't easy and I lost a lot, but I learned a lot and Malifaux has become my favourite game by far.

[OneLittleThunder]

 

2 minutes ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

you basically said the same thing I said right after the sentence you quoted

12 minutes ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

So a new player who only has one box and a few extras can't play gaining grounds. They can pre-determine schemes they know their crew can do (I started with Ironsides, my opponents were all happy to fudge the pool in her favour while I was learning). Or they can learn how to play a crew that's at a disadvantage and focus on denial, but that might be frustrating for some people.

Except that I think your highlighted sentence is too long. "Or they can learn how to play a crew that's at a disadvantage," full stop. And when that immediately follows the pronouncement that such players "can't play Gaining Grounds," full stop, it sounds like even that is something they should do in a non-tournament setting, because you've already declared that they can't play in a GG tournament.

[JimTullis]

21 minutes ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

Malifaux very specifically has you select your crew AFTER you know what schemes are played. Because a master that does everything equally well (scheme running, killing, denial etc.) is too powerful. So a new player who only has one box and a few extras can't play gaining grounds.

I most definitely CAN play Gaining Grounds. I play it. I come in 2nd and 3rd occasionally. Now I don't get all the VP, but I have a great time, and I give my opponents fits at times.

I'm also not "perceiving a bug in the system". I realize that Malifaux is intentionally different from other games, and have no problem playing versus people who maximize their Masters and Crew to suit the current Deployment, Strategies and Schemes. I find it quite fun and challenging.

Now, I will repeat myself...

My first comment on the thread was merely meant as an observation that Public Display will be a challenge.

Edited January 27, 2016 by JimTullis
Emphasis

[Sordid Strumpet]

Ok, I'm not going to be arguing over semantics here. If you've read and understood my post and weren't looking for an argument you will see that firstly I am in fact not saying new players can't play GG (despite some possibly unfortunate phrasing on my part that is later corrected) and secondly did pretty much exactly the thing that I'm being misquoted as having said is impossible when I started Malifaux.

When you start writing stuff like what you wrote "sounds like", you're jumping to conclusions and reading intent into words that simply wasn't there. You can't do that on the internet if you want to have a reasonable discussion.

So let's stop looking for a fight, realise this was a misunderstanding and move on?

[Kadeton]

50 minutes ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

So let's stop looking for a fight, realise this was a misunderstanding and move on?

Yes, let's do that.

[Adran]

Looking at the Outcast list there are 2 minions that cost 5 (Guilty and Friekorpsman), 3 minions that cost 6 (Ronin, Rat Catcher and Trapper) and 1 minion that costs 8 (rat King).  

I would actually say a thematic Hamlin crew is the one of the most likely to score this for outcasts. Its much easier for other factions though. 

[katadder]

guess I really should stop doing fixed master to myself at tourneys then  

thing is I tend to choose my crews before even knowing faction and dont let it influence me (one time I did I did badly) and I also tend to run the same crews from tourney to tourney.

I am not bothered by the new scenarios, I will still take Levi to a nuetralise the leader scheme pool game if I am running fixed master (or even if I am not). consider it more a challenge to overcome and try and win

[solkan]

Well, it's not like you have to customize your crews or masters.  When the giant arachnids come out and the time has come to start the giant spider wars, that's just going to happen whether it's a great idea or not. 

But you're not supposed to hear the other player has declared, or hear what the scheme pool is, and think "Oh, no, I'm stuck with such-and-such fixed list or so-and-so master."  That's supposed to be a surprise when you both reveal your crews. 

[JimTullis]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Looking at the Outcast list there are 2 minions that cost 5 (Guilty and Friekorpsman), 3 minions that cost 6 (Ronin, Rat Catcher and Trapper) and 1 minion that costs 8 (rat King).  

I would actually say a thematic Hamlin crew is the one of the most likely to score this for outcasts. Its much easier for other factions though. 

Thanks for the Data!

I'll look into Friekorpsmans and Trappers sometime soon. I have been interested in Von Schill for a change of pace. But Hamelin will remain my go to master.

[Yvarre]

Looking at the old schemes, there were pretty clear formulas that experienced players had to score full VP.  We had auto-takes like Breakthrough, Plant Evidence, and Protect Territory where-in points became trivial or schemes like assassinate which were almost impossible not to deny with certain masters.  These were making competitive gameplay and crew selection pretty static and penalized the newer players who didn't quite have their groove and maybe didn't know not to try to assassinate Levi with his 8 wounds.

With all of us now trying to solve this new puzzle, skill and hiring pool diversity are going to give some advantages, however we are also going to see many choices that we wouldn't expect from experienced and newer players alike regardless of what we might feel the best crew and scheme choices by their faction may be in a given strat.  I feel here that newer players with smaller hiring pools may not even be at such a distinct disadvantage, as they will still have henchmen, enforcers, and minions to complete the different types of schemes, and while not having a certain model may mean that a crew build is not as optimal as it could be, it is always the better option for players to use models that they are familiar with anyways.  With masters, there are some who can do well with almost every strat and scheme, but it's often recommended to players starting out that they start with 2 crew boxes and a few auxiliary models that work well with both masters.

While Malifaux is my only minis game, and I am finishing painting up everything in Ten Thunders besides Lone Swordsman, Brewmaster, and Guild Pathfinder for this tournament season, I started my tournaments with a very small hiring pool that was not ideal for many scheme pools.  This did not deter me in the least as I was learning much about my own faction and the others I played, and I am still finding continuous surprises from my own crews and those I play against.  While winning has its neurological and physical rewards, I feel that having fun, connecting with our community, and learning about new things both in game and out are a big part of what brings us together to play (and discuss) this game in the first place. 

[lusciousmccabe]

3 minutes ago, Yvarre said:

Looking at the old schemes, there were pretty clear formulas that experienced players had to score full VP.  We had auto-takes like Breakthrough, Plant Evidence, and Protect Territory where-in points became trivial or schemes like assassinate which were almost impossible not to deny with certain masters.  These were making competitive gameplay and crew selection pretty static and penalized the newer players who didn't quite have their groove and maybe didn't know not to try to assassinate Levi with his 8 wounds.

Yeah, I found this was definitely the case. A couple of the schemes were just so easy they made the others irrelevant and you didn't know that you could easily lose the game during scheme selection. I know one person who was put off the game completely by this, so I'm looking forward to having these new schemes as a fresh start.

[Sordid Strumpet]

Yeah I tried spring the trap once. Even with Colette, it was outrageously difficult. The only reason I scored full points was that my opponent made the mistake of attacking Cassandra with Smoke & Mirrors while near Von Schill with the intention of hitting von schill to clear all markers but instead randomised onto her and scored me the full points. But man, I wasn't going to take that again in a hurry because in the scheme were also body guard and break through which Cassandra would have been infinitely better at scoring.

[Design Dragon]

Are the gaining grounds schemes easily available via site navigation? I'm having a hard time even finding the files without resorting to Google, which would only help someone who ALREADY KNEW about gaining grounds.

[Bengt]

5 hours ago, The MechE said:

Are the gaining grounds schemes easily available via site navigation? I'm having a hard time even finding the files without resorting to Google, which would only help someone who ALREADY KNEW about gaining grounds.

From the menu at the top of the page: Community->Resources->Organized Play Formats

This give you a zip containing the Gaining Grounds pdf and some related documents (henchman hardcore, enforcer brawl, etc).

[Vorpalhit]

how are people playing Exhaust their Forces, I've seen it ticketed off at once per turn but there isn't a limit stated on it like there is on Hunting Party. Can you claim up to 3vp a turn or does it drip though at one per turn?