How to Lucius

[nep]

Greetings, 

First off I'm going to say that I got pulled into the game for both the Skirmish and the RPG. I've gone with Neverborn so RPG players will have a visual representation of what they may have to face. As the game progress I would like to add NPC elements to the campaign in the form of The Guild, and this is where Lucius, lawyers and the guards enters. As I am also into building a skirmish crew, I'm gonna ask recommendations on how a competitive Lucius Neverborn works.

From past articles I read, Lucius is identified as weak when compared to other masters. He is played as a minion master and from what I remember from past articles he is usually fielded with Dashel and Guild Riflemen as a ranged crew for Neverborn. Then add other models depending on Schemes & Strats. Now with book 3, I've read about Envy/ Trapper + Changeling ranged crew and was wondering how they compared to Dashel + Riflemen. 

So how do you guys run a successful Lucius list? What's your core models? I've primarily running Lucius as Neverborn but this would probably be my gateway to collecting Guild so Guild list/comparison are welcome.

[MR TORGUE]

maybe grab the starter set as that gives both guild and neverborn - both sides provide excellent minions and also their mercs! excellent models for RPG too! 

[RobertSirc]

33 minutes ago, nep said:

From past articles I read, Lucius is identified as weak when compared to other masters.

I don't know where you are reading this. I have never played Lucius, it's the next box set i need to paint but i have played against him, and he is damn near impossible to beat if the scheme pool is marker heavy. 

[Rathnard]

I feel like the Dashel w. Riflemen combo is a bit of a trap. Sure it can deal some crazy damage, but as soon as they're in melee they're a lost cause. Being a static firebase also doen't help with alot of the Strategies and schemes. So while I think a pair of riflemen can be a solid deterent, I'd prefer not to go much further. 

 

Lucius can bring some good shooting into the Neverborn, but you shouldn't forget what the Neverborn can offer Lucius. Illuminated, Young Nephilim and Waldgeists are all minions and all happen to be great at what they do. It's been a long time since I've taken a Neverborn Lucius crew, but the first things I would hire in such a crew are a pair of Illuminated. 

[Dirial]

1 hour ago, RobertSirc said:

Lucius [...] is damn near impossible to beat

[lusciousmccabe]

3 hours ago, Rathnard said:

I feel like the Dashel w. Riflemen combo is a bit of a trap. Sure it can deal some crazy damage, but as soon as they're in melee they're a lost cause. Being a static firebase also doen't help with alot of the Strategies and schemes. So while I think a pair of riflemen can be a solid deterent, I'd prefer not to go much further. 

 

Lucius can bring some good shooting into the Neverborn, but you shouldn't forget what the Neverborn can offer Lucius. Illuminated, Young Nephilim and Waldgeists are all minions and all happen to be great at what they do. It's been a long time since I've taken a Neverborn Lucius crew, but the first things I would hire in such a crew are a pair of Illuminated. 

Agreed. Illuminated, Beckoners and Depleted are all nice options for Lucius. Waldgeists are also strong and have hilarious synergy with Austringers. Also, Stitched Together can be rather obnoxious with extra actions and/or a crew composition that doesn't need many high cards elsewhere.

Dashel is a waste of stones in my opinion and taking him to buff riflemen is something of a "win more" option that quickly turns into a "get engaged and die" option. 

3 hours ago, RobertSirc said:

I don't know where you are reading this. I have never played Lucius, it's the next box set i need to paint but i have played against him, and he is damn near impossible to beat if the scheme pool is marker heavy. 

I've never played against him but my experience of playing Lucius is that he can just about hold his own in a marker/interact heavy game and is subpar otherwise; that's why he's considered lower tier.

I still love him to bits though.

[admiralvorkraft]

Lucius also benefits quite a bit from any summoning you can bring to the table, and models with Black Blood. I would bring the Mysterious Emissary, and a Black Blood Shaman before anything else. If I infiltrated anything from Guild it would be Lawyers and maybe an Austringer.

Lucius, more than any non-Gremlin, uses friendly wounds as a resource. Summoning makes that sustainable over the course of a game, and Black Blood can get you extra benefit out of killing your own models.

Try using Lackeys to put a summoned terror tot in the middle of a clump of important models, stone for a ram and order someone to take a focused attack, Devil's Deal it back from the Tot, take a walk and make something attack, stone for the Ram on your Hidden sniper and pull it back out of the tot. Congratulations, you just did nearly master level damage.

Sue also works well with Lucius because (again) he lets you benefit from killing your own models.

[izikial]

agreed that you should bin dashal, I don't do rifle men, I prefer austringers if I need snipers and path finders for midrange guns.

Dogs are good for activations, guild are a little better but neverborn are nice near lucius

lawyers are great and I recommend taking 1 for your first few games as a safty then make the call if you want to keep them

get a doppelganger, they felt week to me untill my 20th or so game with them, then I got it

illuminated are your solid core, walds and young are a tad cheaper but the illuminated is a 8.5ss worth modle, so its hard to beat.

keep the hench and enforcers to a minimum, by all means take them, just don't put alot of stones there

from there just play about, Lucius is my favorit master in this game as when I play him even though I hemorrhage modles I still feel like I'm in control, just experiment and find your style

ps I havnt proxid the emissary yet but super looking forward to him

[rsteelrose]

I find Lucius to be lackluster. I've faced him 2x in competitive events and thumped him both times.

The first time I was playing a Perdita list and just killed all of his minions from range. The only concession he had was Candy doing some shenanigans, but she died later as well. I kept him pinned behind some buildings and did pretty much whatever I wanted.

The second game was a Tag Team match in which my partner and I were playing a Ramos/Ryle list and our opponents were playing a Lucius/Barbaros list. They got creamed that day taking the wooden spoon.

Now don't get me wrong, I love Lucius, my 1E LadyJ/Lucius list was one of my favorites. But he's a very situational master.

Edit:
Just asked the guys we played, it was a Lucius/Candy list.

[izikial]

have not thought of sue befor, great shout

[admiralvorkraft]

1 minute ago, izikial said:

Lucius is my favorit master in this game as when I play him even though I hemorrhage modles I still feel like I'm in control

This is the key to Lucius. Forget Leveticus, Lucy is the real suicide master in this game. Playing Lucius your greatest ability is controlling when and where your models die, and making it happen in a way that benefits you more than it benefits your opponent.

Unfortunately that really limits the pools that he plays well into. Reckoning is not Lucius' game, Make Them Suffer is right out. He likes schemes that score in-game and that score off of Interacts. That means Cursed Object, Spring the Trap, Plant Explosives (which you should pretty much always be able to score in full at the bottom of turn 1), Distract, Deliver the Message. He loves Squatter's Rights, he likes Headhunter.

When I'm running Lucius I'm only bringing models that benefit me when they die, or that can add wounds to the board. Pathfinder's are brilliant - they do damage, they do board control, they do card draw, they summon traps. Lawyers and Death Marshals have Finish the Job which means Lucius can score Line in the Sand with one in a single activation, starting up to 16" away; Walk and have them scheme, order them to walk and scheme (book trigger), kill them with Hidden Sniper with the Mask trigger to drop a scheme. Performers give another minion Reactivate when they die. Orderlies are blazingly fast and have a heal. Wastrels heal. Graves takes some putting down and has Black Blood... You get the picture.

Does playing Lucius this way win me games? Sometimes. It's always a hard game, and I expect it to be. I don't play Lucius if I'm tired or in the mood to just hang out. Even in his perfect pool, he's a sub-par choice, but he got a lot better with Shifting Loyalties and we'll see what happens down the line.

[Mxbedlam]

So my new ideas for Lucius involve 2 Mounted Guardsmen and a Teddy. Played correctly, you could get Teddy to be pulled 10" up the board with the Mounted Guard's Calvary Charge, Pushed 3" with his Reinforcements, activate Lucius to force 2 walks from the other second Mounted Guardsman so that it can grab Teddy for another charge, then activate the Teddy to charge 7" and Deliver Teddy nearly 27" inches up the board on turn one.

Or play more conservatively and use the threat of the mounted guards to get your other minions and Teddy into position.

[izikial]

some combos are things like

illuminated, bb shaman, lawyer. Bb and fees the illuminated and it starts wrecking from splash damage

pathfinders and dopple ganger give alot of ability to tie up and drop markers wial still being able to shoot in your self

Lucius can devils deal traps for free ss

add in austringers and make that hidden weapon Lucius dream come true

changelings and traps make for a super anouying tar pit

sue can give finish the job to a trap that you then devils deal for Ss for a scheme marker and a soul stone

use wrath and some guild dogs for tones of attacks with a damage buff

you can run Lucius as a nightmare guy to debuff wp with insidious madness attack spam and use widow weaver to tack advantage of fails friendly horro duels

[Nical]

Lucius is very useful, but he is not master for beat-down play. he is control master and his win condition is VP by Schemes.

And he is very "sacrificing" master. He can use other models as resources for more VP, and you must do.

 

Take some Guild models. They make Lucius Shine. But I don't recommend Guards & Dogs. 

Because we have good 4ss minions like Terror tots and we got our dogs in Shifting Loyalties. (At least, we got rules)

And Doppleganger and our solid minions like Waldgeist, Illuminated are always useful.

 

And If you think about Lucius "to win", you must think about Fated Collodi, too.

Fated Collodi may be better than Lucius in "many situations."   

[nep]

Greetings and thanks for the insights!

izikial - Thanks for the combos, I may not be familiar on how some interact but it's a good read for me later.

Nical - Noted on the guards and dogs, I also have majority of the more used Neverborn models in plastic so I can start experimenting.

MrBedlam - your concept of running Mounted Guards as a catapult for Teddy is inspirational. The Mounted Guards can also double for scheme runners.

admiralvorkraft - noted on Mysterious Emissary and Shaman though I may have to wait for the plastics. And Sue!

Rathnrd & lusciousmccabe - Illuminated it is.

- From what I am reading, most recommendations gear towards a melee crew with Illuminated or hybrid with Austringers and Pathfinders. I take it that a ranged crew: Envy + Changelings does not work well when pitted in melee? Having a ranged crew in Neverborn sounded uncommon and nifty.

[Nical]

You can take 3~4 Guardsmen with gun (Austringer, Riflemen, Pathfinder) and Doppleganger to build good ranged crew.

And take other models for Schemes and VP, your crew will be completed.

Envy + Changelings are fine, but as I said, Fated Collodi is better in "many situations" and this combination is one of them.

[lusciousmccabe]

You'll typically have more ranged attacks (and longer range) than other neverborn crews if you include any guardsmen. Lucius isn't that much about fighting so ranged vs melee doesn't come into it that much, it's more like schemes vs schemes with s flavour of the above.

[Pikciwok]

Hi all,

Is it possible to Lucius with Mimic-only list? Of course, with the right strategy and scheme pool, so no reconing, no make them suffer, but lots of things like breakthrough, protect territory, plant evidence etc.

Thought about something like this one:

50 ss
Lucius
- suprisingly loyal
- secret assets
- legalise
The Scribe
Doppelganger
- useless duplications
Mr Graves
- retribution's eye
Beaconer
Beaconer
Guild Lawyer
Guild Lawyer

(looks like a Pimp gang).

[Chumbalaya]

I haven't played Lucius as Neverborn yet, but they have so many good minions for Lucius to boss around.  Illuminated, Terror Tots, Waldgeists, Changelings, ugh it's so nasty.  Doppelganger with a pair of Austringers is a lot of shooting.  Pathfinders are great board control.  Freikorps Trappers/Envy with Changelings makes for a mean gunline.  Lucius is hard to play because he relies so much on his minions and almost all his tricks require suits.  He can burn through his hand so quickly, it's painful.  But he gives out so many AP it can make up for it.

[Rat King]

On 1/21/2016 at 0:33 PM, lusciousmccabe said:

I've never played against him but my experience of playing Lucius is that he can just about hold his own in a marker/interact heavy game and is subpar otherwise; that's why he's considered lower tier.

Wait... there are Malifaux tiers?
Where can this tier list be found?  Who decided the tiers? 
I'm dubious as to this statement about there being a lower tier, or any other tier...    >.>

[Ludvig]

49 minutes ago, Rat King said:

Wait... there are Malifaux tiers?
Where can this tier list be found?  Who decided the tiers? 
I'm dubious as to this statement about there being a lower tier, or any other tier...    >.>

There are no official tiers but most people would agree he is on the lower end of the power scale, especially if you consider a single master tournament where you need to do all the strategies with one master (and often a limited model pool). He is certainly tricky to get the hang of compared to a lot of other masters.

With the new gaining grounds for 2016 you should check out the new schemes, Lucius should get a boost from a lot of those requiring markers.

As for your list Pikciwok: I would say it is a little too heavy on support models. Beckoners are really costed to interact with illuminated when you break it down, I don't think two of them without any illuminated will work very well, especially since almost all other models in the list are also support models that hardly deal any damage. The problem with not having any killers of your own is that the enemy will likely table you or nearly table you since you can't remove their hittiest models and the models in a lot of Lucius lists will have trouble surviving.

[Masquer]

On 1/25/2016 at 9:19 AM, Pikciwok said:

Hi all,

Is it possible to Lucius with Mimic-only list? 

Here you are: 

 

[Sybarite]

Pretty sure there arent more marker schemes in gg2016 that before.

[Ludvig]

On 15 mars 2016 at 7:49 AM, Sybarite said:

Pretty sure there arent more marker schemes in gg2016 that before.

Right you are. Since the new marker schemes score during he game Lucius might have actually gotten worse since the Legalese upgrade now messes with fewer enemy schemes.  

[Masquer]

28 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Right you are. Since the new marker schemes score during he game Lucius might have actually gotten worse since the Legalese upgrade now messes with fewer enemy schemes.  

Just means we have to be more proactive if we want to use Legalese for those opportunities.  Personally, I've always found Loop Holes the more pressing ability from that upgrade.