Overwhelmed and unhappy

[Kobayashi]

Whelp,

yes here I am (again) and still a bit overhelmed and generally unhappy with my situation. There are two things I'm unhappy about and I'm writing this to:

a] gather advice how to deal with the current situation

b] just to let it out

Though roll your eyes gently while reading this.

So there it is.

I caught the Malifaux bug, bought two Crewboxes and some models, but still am a bit unhappy. First off to fully get the most of my boxes I need to buy two other Crew Boxes (to get Lenny for Ophelia and Trixie Belle for The Brewmaster), but feel unexcited about getting the Crew Boxes the suggested models are in, in total. Sure I could always proxie the model with the wave Cards, but it's honestly not the same, as with playing with the actual models. Also I know thee are some vendors that sell single models, but with me not being in the same country, paying for shipping and customs come close to the price of the box, which would be a bit insane of a price to pay...

I delayed that with probably getting a box I feel more excited about (Wong is my current favourite and actually I AM excited about finishing up Opelia and my preorders, so I can justify to invite more plastics into my house), but I now regard the other boxes as incomplete, since I get the "STRONGLY RECOMMENDED" vibe from the Forum, which lowers my overall excitement for those boxes again. I still love them for what they are... but feel a bit more at a loss here...

Also I want to break out from the Gremlins once in a while (since I want to spice things up for me), but I must admit -- though there are many helpful persons out there, being VERY Patient with me (bless all of you) -- with getting also tipps that those are working good with Henchman / Enforcers from other boxes. which I am not all to happy about it myself.

Mostly I think this is on me, want to make everything perfect. Maybe I should just roll with the game... but again, I feel a bit more lost, when I go against (every) advice. Maybe it is that I indeed have too many options and am too excited getting new toys, but to be honest with you; I enjoy painting up the models and show my progress by wanting to play the crew I just finished.

In any case. Thank you for reading this and giving helpful advice how to deal with my current situation (or maybe speak from your own experience).

- Kobayashi

 

[Bengt]

I would take any "auto-include" advice with a large pile of salt. Sure they can be effective combos, but there are a bunch of other effective combos out there. If you figure out your own combos you will not only get the extra satisfaction of having done that, your opponents are less likely to have a counter ready.

[lusciousmccabe]

What do you mean when you say "get the most of" your crews? If it's the case that you really like those individual models then it's just a bummer they're not available separately (there's a teeny chance you might be able to get a metal Lenny on eBay). If you're feeling your crew won't work without them based on what others have said then you can at least try your crews without them and thenproxy if you do find them lacking. If at that point you feel you absolutely need the models to play your crew consider getting the boxes.  

In my experience there's so much model selection options that I haven't really felt the need to buy crew boxes just for one model. That usually comes from warming up to the rest of the models from prolonged exposure. 

[OneLittleThunder]

Unless you're playing tournaments at a competitive level, there are no models you have to have - and even then, having a "sub-optimal" crew that you know well is usually better than a "perfect" crew that you're unfamiliar with. This is a lesson that's taken me a long time to learn; I started by buying ALL THE THINGS because I wanted to have the perfect answer for every situation, and now find that many of those models stay in their foam because they don't work for me and the way I play. I'd say, keep playing with what you have, and if you find that your crews need something else for a particular opponent or situation, then you know and can get what you need.

[Lucidicide]

In many cases, the sorts of crews I hire in the game would not be considered "ideal" from a competitive, tournament winning mindset. I tend to stick to theme crews, hiring models that are aesthetically/narratively linked over models that may have the most potent combinations. I also tend to avoid interactions that, while legal, don't feel like they add a lot of fun to the game (such as burying Papa Loco after benefiting from his buff). Despite this, I find myself doing very well in games. Am I likely to win any tournaments? No, but I'm also not likely to enter any -- I've always been a casual player.

I would encourage you to really look beyond the "ideal" and focus on what you want to play. Malifaux is balanced enough that, for the most part, you can take the models you want and have a strong showing. When you ask for advice, people are always going to list the best possible thing they can, the 100% model choice. That said, you can still win with a 90% model choice, and I find that most people do better with models they are excited about or that fit their individual styles than models that the internet has told them are good.

Does Lenny work well with Ophelia? Absolutely. Do you need him to win games with the Kin? Definitely not. In fact, you may find that many of your opponents have more fun if you don't bring him. :-P

[Adran]

Just remember advice form the forum is not always correct. You asked for advice on what to get, and people answered with models that can have strong synergy with what you have. But Ophila and the Kin play perfectly well without the free Rams from standing next to Lenny. (And a lot of the time having Lenny on the table with them is a trap, as it encourages you into a static play style, which is normally a bad way to score victory points). 

Owning everything allows you to make the most choices. But you don't need to own everything to play a crew well. 

Malifaux is a game that is quite interestingly balenced, as pretty much all models can be sold as good for purpose A. And you may never encounter a game where A comes up. I strongly advise you to play what you have, find out what works for you, and what doesn't. See what areas the models you have struggle to do, and from there you can think about what to buy next. There isn't any automatic buys out there that you must own for the Gremlin faction or else you will lose. Sommer can play (and win) games where you don't own more that 4 Bayou Gremlins. Brewmaster can Die even after he has put up his Drinking problem Aura. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kobayashi]

Kudos to everyone here...

yes, I feared that I might lost myself (due to inexperience) that the optimal build is required. Thanks that everyone elivated that fear.

Also Kudos to a staff not recommending MOOOAAR boxes to upgrade existing boxes (but buy ( ) and ) play what seems fun to me...

Guess I take it slow from here on out...

[lusciousmccabe]

24 minutes ago, Aaron said:

When you ask for advice, people are always going to list the best possible thing they can, the 100% model choice. That said, you can still win with a 90% model choice, and I find that most people do better with models they are excited about or that fit their individual styles than models that the internet has told them are good.

As well as that people tend to emphasise the best possible outcome when suggesting models, which can increase the perceived disparity with the models you actually play with, who are bound by the law of averages. 

[D_acolyte]

I tend to find that worrying about optimal builds and what the global meta sates you should do is not a way to play a game. Take the meta as people opinions and just worry about what you have and how to get experience. What is sub optimal is the not developing how you play into itself and worrying about what the meta states is optimal is not worth worrying.

[LeperColony]

Just to argue from a different point of view, I think you need to factor in how important winning is to you.

Everyone would agree that there are some crew builds that are better than others.  A lot of the advice you're hearing is "play your way and who cares if it's not as good as is it might be" and, just to be clear, that is perfectly valid advice.  However, it assumes that winning is not central to your enjoying the experience.

Now, I know people don't want to admit if winning is important to them, because they worry it makes them look like jerks.  I know for myself, winning is not as important as playing with a crew whose visuals or themes I like, so I end up playing with something of a handicap in certain situations, and that's okay for me.

But if winning is important to you, and there's nothing wrong if it is, then the advice you're getting about optimizing may very well be more relevant to you.

You may want to consider trying Malifaux on Vassal, if having the models is the issue.

[Kobayashi]

22 minutes ago, LeperColony said:

Just to argue from a different point of view, I think you need to factor in how important winning is to you.

Everyone would agree that there are some crew builds that are better than others.  A lot of the advice you're hearing is "play your way and who cares if it's not as good as is it might be" and, just to be clear, that is perfectly valid advice.  However, it assumes that winning is not central to your enjoying the experience.

Now, I know people don't want to admit if winning is important to them, because they worry it makes them look like jerks.  I know for myself, winning is not as important as playing with a crew whose visuals or themes I like, so I end up playing with something of a handicap in certain situations, and that's okay for me.

But if winning is important to you, and there's nothing wrong if it is, then the advice you're getting about optimizing may very well be more relevant to you.

You may want to consider trying Malifaux on Vassal, if having the models is the issue.

Well... it is not important, but it's also not that way, where I just put on some minis and go for the lulz. I think it's best to put it that I want to have a fighting chance. I guess it's not funny for the opponent either (if he does not revel in that fact), if he steamrolls me and we both have that weird feeling, that we might have better invested the time in something else than just gathering up, unpack the miniatures and repack after 30 minutes....

For example, the last game I lost, due to not having initiative and my opponent killing off my Brewmaster. It was tense... but the rounds before I had initiative and gosh did my opponent drink on the house... So I had these moments where I could hold him off (and this is me having 3-4 games in) and remove his hand with Pick your Poison! and if bad things hadn't happened to me... it could very well have gone another way

[Omenbringer]

5 hours ago, Kobayashi said:

Well... it is not important, but it's also not that way, where I just put on some minis and go for the lulz. I think it's best to put it that I want to have a fighting chance. I guess it's not funny for the opponent either (if he does not revel in that fact), if he steamrolls me and we both have that weird feeling, that we might have better invested the time in something else than just gathering up, unpack the miniatures and repack after 30 minutes....

For example, the last game I lost, due to not having initiative and my opponent killing off my Brewmaster. It was tense... but the rounds before I had initiative and gosh did my opponent drink on the house... So I had these moments where I could hold him off (and this is me having 3-4 games in) and remove his hand with Pick your Poison! and if bad things hadn't happened to me... it could very well have gone another way

I tend to agree that the best (read as most enjoyable) games are those that are real "nail bitters". No matter the game everyone wants to feel like they have a decent chance of winning. With that said though, Malifaux is a game where skill will usually trump an optimized list. This skill is not just understanding the models in your crew (which is very important), but understanding the nuances of the crew synergies and core rules interactions. This is particularly true with gremlins who can really maximize the effects of things like, deck shaping, deck cycling, activation order, out activation, and are designed with a lot of synergy (not to say other crews aren't just that Gremlin's tend to be designed for it).

Unfortunately the only sure fire way to improve your skill level is to play (and likely lose) a lot of games. Rest assured though, eventually you will hit the "magic moment" where things will just click. Potentially less encouraging is the fact that gremlin's tend to have a higher learning curve than other factions (or crews) that are much more straight forward in design (Lady Justice for example).

[Sordid Strumpet]

The fact of the matter is, though, that most of the time you can achieve your schemes regardless of your opponent (think protect territory, power ritual etc.). And then you have the option of either making your crew go after the Strategy points or denying your opponent. Generally speaking, if your crew can't do one it can do the other (i.e. it will be able to prevent your opponent scoring, or score itself).

The forum is great for getting extra ideas and discussing them, but you always want to take things being said here with a grain of salt. 'universal wisdom' sort of collects all opinions, digests them thoroughly until one answer comes out which is borne of a mix of game play experience, theory-faux and a lot of talk. That it's the prevailing opinion doesn't mean it's the best option. Malifaux is so staggeringly complex you'll never find the 100% best choice, nor will any crew ever be 100% optimal (IMO). It's all about what you do with it.

If you ask around in other areas like facebook, twitter or listen to podcasts you'll find that opinions are almost evenly split among players whether a model is fantastic or a waste of stones. It depends very strongly how you play the game, how you approach situations and how your brain is wired to analyse situations whether you think a model is fantastic or pointless.

Bottom line - think about your models, read their cards, experiment with them. Don't give a damn whether you win or lose, just have a good time playing. Over time you'll figure out your own play style.

[AgentRock]

Just to give you an option, I know you said you're interested in dipping a toe outside the faction but aren't crazy about opening up yet more crew boxes you have to buy to be effective (at least that's an interpretation I have,) you might think about trying the Zoraida box set. It's a reasonably effective crew out of the box, and can be used with your gremlins or as Neverborn. Might be a good way to experiment without committing whole hog to another faction. 

[Sordid Strumpet]

The great thing about Zoraida is you can play her as neverborn with her box, and all you need is a bunch of Nurses and/or Waldgeists which are available as separate boxes so don't cost much.

If I've understood it correctly, you already have the Ophelia box? In which case Zoraida is great because she can hire living models with Wp 4 or less as mercenaries. So if you declare neverborn Zoraida, you can still hire Remi, Pere Ravage, and Raphael so half the box works with Zoraida in your new faction. Basically you need about $30 to get an incredible number of ways to play Neverborn.

[Kobayashi]

7 hours ago, AWOL said:

Just to give you an option, I know you said you're interested in dipping a toe outside the faction but aren't crazy about opening up yet more crew boxes you have to buy to be effective (at least that's an interpretation I have,) you might think about trying the Zoraida box set. It's a reasonably effective crew out of the box, and can be used with your gremlins or as Neverborn. Might be a good way to experiment without committing whole hog to another faction. 

 

7 hours ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

The great thing about Zoraida is you can play her as neverborn with her box, and all you need is a bunch of Nurses and/or Waldgeists which are available as separate boxes so don't cost much.

If I've understood it correctly, you already have the Ophelia box? In which case Zoraida is great because she can hire living models with Wp 4 or less as mercenaries. So if you declare neverborn Zoraida, you can still hire Remi, Pere Ravage, and Raphael so half the box works with Zoraida in your new faction. Basically you need about $30 to get an incredible number of ways to play Neverborn.

To keep this thread tidy I made another thread to get me excited for a crew that is outside of my faction (though your points are noted and Zoraida looks diffeent enough to warrant more than a glimpse).

- - - - - - - -

In addition to keep the suggestions already given (for optimal setup) to heart, but not thinking to heart about getting it now and just see where ever the interest drifts me; I asked my Henchman, if we could scale a little bit down, so THAT extra model that works best, might not factor at all and I can ease my way in. Guess this was me wanting too much also (like "WORK NOW!") and lost the track of just roll with it and having fun...

So again, Kudos to everyone voicing in... I am a bit more excited again about my upcoming Sammy... since I have some plans for her in my Brewmaster Crew...

[Math Mathonwy]

I have played Ophelia a lot without Lenny or Trixie. She can do just fine without them. I know that most Gremlin players absolutely love Lenny but I find him a bit of a liability. He is very fragile and easy to tamper with due to his stats and is a prime target due to his power and size. And he does limit your movement if you cluster around him (and if you don't, why hire him in the first place?). He isn't bad (really good, actually) but far from mandatory.

You can easily build an Ophelia crew where the only one who really needs those Rams is Ophelia herself and she can stone or cheat for them when needed.

Trixie OTOH is sorta close to "mandatory" with Brewie in that she has just incredible synergy with him. That said, I have won with Brewie without Trixie so it isn't like it's impossible to win, just a bit non-optimal. (Also note that you could proxy Trixie with the girl Young LaCroix as she can't be mistaken for anything in the Brewie crew and is quite appropriate all in all - though I do understand your reluctance).

[Kobayashi]

2 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I have played Ophelia a lot without Lenny or Trixie. She can do just fine without them. I know that most Gremlin players absolutely love Lenny but I find him a bit of a liability. He is very fragile and easy to tamper with due to his stats and is a prime target due to his power and size. And he does limit your movement if you cluster around him (and if you don't, why hire him in the first place?). He isn't bad (really good, actually) but far from mandatory.

You can easily build an Ophelia crew where the only one who really needs those Rams is Ophelia herself and she can stone or cheat for them when needed.

Trixie OTOH is sorta close to "mandatory" with Brewie in that she has just incredible synergy with him. That said, I have won with Brewie without Trixie so it isn't like it's impossible to win, just a bit non-optimal. (Also note that you could proxy Trixie with the girl Young LaCroix as she can't be mistaken for anything in the Brewie crew and is quite appropriate all in all - though I do understand your reluctance).

It is great to here that Lenny seems not to be that mandatory... So kudos. Currently I want to run her with Merris (so I can drop scheme marker, while shooting) and if I go down... Well Pere and Merris make sure there won't be any survivors to brag about the victory.

As for Trixie Belle... oh well... currently I want to try out to pick Sammy with Brewie and go for hard on card denial with Brewmaster's and Wesleys Pick your poison and Sammy's Jinx. If I get intiatve they gonna have a hard time, with them really doing anything without getting a decent flip. -- Well this is the theory, but bad things can happen.

[Math Mathonwy]

3 hours ago, Kobayashi said:

It is great to here that Lenny seems not to be that mandatory... So kudos. Currently I want to run her with Merris (so I can drop scheme marker, while shooting) and if I go down... Well Pere and Merris make sure there won't be any survivors to brag about the victory.

That should work nicely enough. Ophelia can slingshot Pere rather handsome distances when needed and he does make a very satisfying boom. Just be very careful with him. Oh, and also consider keeping him in reserve so to speak as his mere presence on the battlefield messes up opponent's freedom of movement as they don't want to cluster while leaving an opening for him to come barrelling down. So not committing right away can pay off nicely in an oblique way.

3 hours ago, Kobayashi said:

As for Trixie Belle... oh well... currently I want to try out to pick Sammy with Brewie and go for hard on card denial with Brewmaster's and Wesleys Pick your poison and Sammy's Jinx. If I get intiatve they gonna have a hard time, with them really doing anything without getting a decent flip. -- Well this is the theory, but bad things can happen.

Aye, that's the spirit! Don't sweat it and try different things. Sammy is awesome.

She also works really well with Ophelia (Sammy can carry My Threatening Gun and order Ophelia around - the negative twist isn't that bad since Ophelia has a built-in positive twist to her shooting - plus, Sammy is Kin).

[Omenbringer]

11 hours ago, Kobayashi said:

It is great to here that Lenny seems not to be that mandatory... So kudos. Currently I want to run her with Merris (so I can drop scheme marker, while shooting) and if I go down... Well Pere and Merris make sure there won't be any survivors to brag about the victory.

Honestly I dont think there are really that many "must have" or "auto-include" models within the faction, except perhaps the Slop Hauler (given the factional identity for masochism). With Gremlins in particular it is easy to succumb to what I call "Menoth Syndrome", where you feel like you have to include all the support models in your crew to be competitive. In reality this is usually a bad way to go, as their cost will limit the hiring of staples (such as teh humble Piglet or Bayou Gremlin) which really do the heavy lifting for the crew. Ophelia and Wong (perhaps also an elite Som'er build) are likely the only Gremlin Masters that can fudge this, even then only to a point.

[Kobayashi]

I just wanted to share this. Though I know it is NOT the ideal model (but I read some had good results with Sparks); not only was it great for you all voicng it; I got some extra money today, which I am invested in some Whiskey Golem; even if he might end up only on display (I will sure give him some tries, though); there is at least the added bonus of finally painting something big again :D.

 

[Omenbringer]

I am extremely eager to add Sparks and the Survivors to my Gremlin crews as soon as they are available. If only the Survivors were summon-able...

[Sordid Strumpet]

On 14 January 2016 at 3:03 AM, Kobayashi said:

I just wanted to share this. Though I know it is NOT the ideal model (but I read some had good results with Sparks); not only was it great for you all voicng it; I got some extra money today, which I am invested in some Whiskey Golem; even if he might end up only on display (I will sure give him some tries, though); there is at least the added bonus of finally painting something big again :D.

 

Whiskey Golem is fantastic. He's tough when you need him to be, can do damage and hand out poison. Go nuts, he's not going to be a detriment if you use him right.

[Kobayashi]

3 hours ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

Whiskey Golem is fantastic. He's tough when you need him to be, can do damage and hand out poison. Go nuts, he's not going to be a detriment if you use him right.

As I said, I will try him, eventaully also with Sammy in it, and I will give her the "Hold their hair back" upgrade... might be nice for the Whiskey Golem to engange sth. and Sammy stun it. At least it will force the enemy to think over his activiations.

[Palooka]

I think a pretty pertinent point to mention is that Brewmaster is not the easiest crew to learn the game with, either. I looked at him on paper and thought he'd be easy - he wasn't. He work really well sometimes but he takes an awful lot of clever positioning to get the best out of him. Ophelia is probably the better option to use to learn the game with, out of the boxes you have.

Al.