Looking for suggestions for Lilith

[doombladez]

Hi, I'm a Resser player but my girlfriend plays Lilith, and while I have a pretty good idea about what's good over in the Resser camp I have little idea about how to play Lilith or play her crew. So I'm asking for advice about how to play her, and especially what Neverborn models are worth considering getting for her. We already have her crew box and the Nephilim box, and are looking into the Hooded Rider. Any help would be appreciated, thanks y'all.

[Hungering Derpness]

Waldgeists together with Lilith's Beckon Malifaux upgrade can give you some good board control by essentially dumping terrain all over the place and making movement a pain.

 

Lilith likes smacking things in melee, so models which can help draw enemy models in close work well, such as Beckoners.

 

Lilith's most potent ability, Tangle Shadows, allows you teleport a friendly model into base contact with an enemy one, then the enemy one into base contact with her. While Lilith *can* target herself with this ability, you're usually better off getting a big model, give it Fears Given Form and then Tangle Shadows it into a bunch of delicious minions. Nekima, Teddy, Mature Nephalim and Bad Juju are good picks for this.

 

A small trick but Primordial Magic's rush of magic stacks with Liliths, giving you some extra drawing power at the start of a turn. Its useful because it gives you more chances of Mask cards, which Lilith goes through a lot.

 

For really solid advice, have a listen to the awesome Schemes & Stones podcast on Lilith, which most of the above was wantonly stolen from. >.>

Edited October 30, 2015 by Hungering Derpness

[RobertSirc]

I would suggest Waldgiest, Mr. Graves, Doppelganger, Primordial Magic and Nekima. The hooded rider is OK, great for scheme runner hunting, but Nekima does a better job. The Waldgiest give you great board control when you need it, Graves i a great beat stick and being able to toss models around gives you some great movement tricks. Nekima, and Lilith synergizes really well, and you can shunt down scheme runners really well with her abilities. Primordial Magic is an auto include, 10x better than the cherub. 

Now it comes down to what is in the pool, if it is killing heavy taking Graves and Nekima is great. If the pool is scheme heavy take the Waldgiest and Tots. Tots run your schemes and Waldgiest help funnel your opponent scheme runners in to areas where you can pick them off. Both Lilith and Nekima look like they can go in and wreck face they can but they cannot take the beating like you might think, so I recommend you play a bit more conservatively with them. 

[D_acolyte]

I find that Liltih is good at separating enemies with Tangle Shadow or Wicked Vines which are on her base card. upgrades wise she can so some more separation with Transfixing Gaze or give cover with Illusionary Forest. When needed Lilith is also a good combat model. Models that can jump on ones separated away from there group are really good with her, I like bloodwretches, young nephilim, mature nephilim, Nekima and the Scion of Black Blood. Other mid to heavy beaters are also good with her just be carful of black blood. If she is going for a grow list then Nekima is a must, though Nekima is a bit of a stone hog with prevention flips. Lilith can also go with a more terrain base build with a few Waldgiests. When Lelu and Lilitu comes out she will want to pick them up. Lelu is a nice missile, most people dislike because he is a lot easier to kill than an illuminated and if that is a problem then Mimic Blessing will help a lot. One of the problems with our faction, the illuminated are good at multiple things to an extent that the 6-8 stone range has to compete with them and many of the NB and 10 T players in my area will not look at anything else in that range most of the time. Lilitu is sort of like a mini Lilith as she can pull enemies to her. I am a fan of the Cherub because of him giving slow and making interactions cheaper but often I do not run her with a totem. The primordial magic is nice if you do not have to worry about markers as he is 1 and you get rush of magic twice, so 8 cards and then discard down to 6. I have no experience with shamans as I do not own the model and try not to proxy.

If she is playing a black blood heavy force get as close to your enemy when you charge and try to maximize the number in 1 inch, this way if you take damage hopefully more people will suffer from black blood. I love Barbaros with this trick, once I was hitting 4 models with black blood and had fees 1 on him so lots of damage for everyone.

[santaclaws01]

I"m going to be very unhelpful and say everything. Lilith is a very versatile master and doesn't require any specific synergies to work well. Though I will throw in a model I haven't seen mentioned yet, Illuminated. Difficult to bring down and hit like a truck.

[D_acolyte]

One of the problems with our faction, the illuminated are good at multiple things to an extent that the 6-8 stone range has to compete with them and many of the NB and 10 T players in my area will not look at anything else in that range most of the time.

 

 Though I will throw in a model I haven't seen mentioned yet, Illuminated. Difficult to bring down and hit like a truck.

Case and point.

The hitting like a truck really comes into effect when the enemy has brilliance otherwise illuminated hits like a young nephilim.

 

[Philosfr]

Lilith is my favorite master and you can probably find several posts concerning her in recent threads, but there's similar things I always add.

• Lilitu is a great Nephilim with black blood and a great lure that I enjoy using with Lilith. I prefer Lilitu over Beckoners unless you need minions for something.
• Barbaros is expensive for being fairly pillow fisted, but his Challenge ability is a godsend in many matches. And pretty survivable with Nimble means he can tie up a lot of the enemy for a while. Too expensive to be a scheme runner, but he can do the job in a late turn in a pinch. And he has pushes, which Lilith likes.
• Mysterious Emissary isn't released unless you have a Neverborn avatar model from 1E, but it's pretty nice with lures/pushes, and the ability to summon Changelings can give some nice scheme runners. Beware, Lilith and the Emissary will fight over your masks though.
• Waldgeists - Lilith loves terrain and these little guys do as well. Plus they are great little tarpit units. Or big since they're on 40mm. They are cheap and durable. One of the few models I'll take 2 of in a list
• Primordial Magic - If Rush of Magic on Lilith is good, then surely having it twice is better! For totems, the Cherub is fun in an interact heavy situation, but is harder to use. More situational. The Puke Snake is 100% gold all the time. If you stone for cards more than once a game, you'll be happy with this guy since he gives you the same benefit for the same cost. Plus he's a sneaky scheme marker at the end of the game if you need it.
• Nekima is an obvious inclusion, but so expensive. Also fairly fragile for being so expensive, which she makes up for by being so kill happy. If she gets focused she'll die fast and waste all those stones. If you can kill everything first or keep her alive through other means (i.e. Barbaros challenge), she's totally worth it.
• Black Blood Shaman - Very much a support piece and I often leave him at home, but I should really use him more. He really only works in black blood heavy crews, but has great tricks for them.

You'll notice there's a few things missing from this list. Like terror tots and young/mature. They are fine pieces, but I think other things tend to work better with Lilith. I rarely feel the need to have them. One tot for a scheme runner if I have points, but usually I'm OK without that. That also means no grow lists. I really think grow lists are a trap and too hard to pull off effectively. You can certainly grow your models, but usually this takes enough of your attention that you lose the game. 

The other thing to keep in mind with Lilith is that her giant sword of hers is not her best option. Not initially anyway. Lilith is more fragile then she looks. I played her as a bruiser for many games before I started to really make her work well. She's better off hanging back and using her other tricks first. She can always mop up with her sword later in the game, or chop up anything that tries to deliver a message or assassinate her, but don't put her in your vanguard. Use Tangle Shadows, her own upgrade lure, other models lures and pushes to send stuff to her to chop up in a pile of Neverborn. Isolate their models and kill them, while tying up the rest of the enemy crew with waldgeists and Barbaros. 

[asrian]

As others have said above, so I won't repeat it all, but Lilith really is one of the most versatile Never born masters and can work with anything.

The main things, beyond Nephilim that I suggest to people are:

Doppelganger 

Primordial Magic

Waldgeist

Mr. Graves

Zoraida Box Set (for Silurids and Bad Juju)

 

Edited November 4, 2015 by asrian

[Mordegald]

Most of what I would say has been covered above, but there's one model I've been having a lot of success with lately who hasn't been mentioned. Namely, Angel Eyes.

Before I get into it, I'll admit there are some issues taking Angel Eyes with Lilith. First and foremost is that Lilith likes to clog up the board with terrain, and that messes with shooters something fierce. Lilith also doesn't have a lot of direct support for shooty subordinates beyond giving them something to hide behind. Finally, Lilith generally doesn't have a lot of stones to go around, and without them Angel Eyes takes hits like a piñata.

That being said, there are some definite synergies to be considered. The obvious one is that she's just another Nephilim who can take Nephilim-specific upgrades. In fact she's a particularly good candidate for Obsidian Talons, because she'll be keeping it nice and safe behind cover with her. Lilith can also help her in some roundabout ways; she can send one of her several flyers up to a good vantage point and then use Tangle Shadows to send Angel Eyes up after it, she can use Transfixing Gaze to yank enemies out of cover for a good peppering, and in an emergency she can sprout forests to keep enemies from getting an easy charge on her sniper. But her best feature is the lack of randomization. Nephilim can deal a good amount of hurt; but they're very squishy, and they rely on raw damage to win rather than circumventing defenses. Angel Eyes doesn't deal a lot of damage, but she's great for following up on a big alpha strike to deal that last crucial point to an Armored or Hard to Kill model still in combat. Since I started using her she's probably gotten the most actual kills on my team, despite not dealing more than two or three damage per shot, just because she's such an efficient sweeper.

"But wait," I hear you say, "Most of those points apply to McTavish as well, and he's also a burly Unimpeded bruiser with deployable cover and movement shenanigans." And this is very true. However after the merc tax he's a hefty eleven soulstones compared to Angel Eyes's nine. Plus being a Gremlin model he's locked out of all those upgrades that Lilith and her pals want around but can't be bothered to carry themselves.

So, she's no silver bullet (pun not intended), and she takes some getting use to. But she opens up enough interesting tactical doors that I can heartily recommend her. Worst case, bringing a riflewoman in a Nephilim crew is a great way to keep your opponents guessing.

[Patzer]

Some staples for me. 

Waldegeists 
McTavish
Silurids 
Bad Juju

Tuco 
Mr Graves
Nekima 
Terror Tots

Doppelganger
Changelings 

Mysterious Effigy 
Primordial Magic
 

Johan 
Trappers 

Upgrades for Lilith: Wings of Darkness, Beckon Malifaux (always). These are the best ones I think. Living Blade is nice too, but it isn't necessary. 

Lilith is great if not outstanding at switching gears. She can go from control freak to full out butcher. 

Some pointers 

Lilith likes to operate from the middle of the table. Since she influence most of the board from there. Be sure to keep her safe behind terrain. 
One of her best action is Wicked Vines. It is as good as Paralyze most of the time. 
Illusionary Forest is outstanding. It has so many applications. It can protect Lilith and her friendlies, or be used offensively to shot down LoS for enemies/slow them down. It is just fantastic. 
Don't rush into chunks of enemies. Lilith wants to handle things on her own terms! Keep her safe.  

[Nical]

Other good players have recommended good models, So I say about usual tactic.

Lilith's melee attack is great and she can support Nephilims, but Her real point is Board Control. Simply "Divide and Conquer" by useful actions like Illusionary Forest / Tangle Shadows is her motto. So many people prefer Swampfiends to Nephilim for more board controls. And some Nephilims like Graves / Nekima and Hooded Rider are good beatsticks and terror tots are always useful scheme runner. Doppleganger / Primordial magic are Toolbox models that work in any crew.   

P.S : Every time I see threads like this, I think we need more pinned tacticas. 

 

[RobertSirc]

P.S : Every time I see threads like this, I think we need more pinned tacticas. 

Yeah but those become stale you have the opportunity to post about new things, local meta and get new players involved with others. Pinned taticas grow so large with people putting in their two cents any new player would take weeks reading through it all just to get to the meat of the topic.

[BlitzMonkey]

P.S : Every time I see threads like this, I think we need more pinned tacticas. 

Yeah but those become stale you have the opportunity to post about new things, local meta and get new players involved with others. Pinned taticas grow so large with people putting in their two cents any new player would take weeks reading through it all just to get to the meat of the topic.

And?  I have learned a lot about models by going through all of that.  Reading trains of thought is a great way to learn about a model.

[RobertSirc]

Most people don't have all day to read through all of the noise. 

[PharaonXIII]

They don't have to. 

It's always the choice, read thoughts train or get a quick look on pmf page

[RobertSirc]

They don't have to. 

It's always the choice, read thoughts train or get a quick look on pmf page

OK so here is why pinned tactica pages are just out of date if you look you have a resources section here. If you do some searching you find great podcast like one of my personal favorites Schemes and Stones which is run by Khyodee. If you are looking for a great blog to read you should try AbnorMALifaux by InsidiouslyMade. But if new players really want a great place to do some solid reading about any master or faction PullMyFinger is a really good resource so good Wyrd links to it here. 

Sure the forum could pin a tactica, that gets long and drawn out and the information in there gets old due to FAQ's and the release of new waves of models or people can use the resources Wyrd supports to learn about the game.

[Shadowfane]

They don't have to. 

It's always the choice, read thoughts train or get a quick look on pmf page

OK so here is why pinned tactica pages are just out of date if you look you have a resources section here. If you do some searching you find great podcast like one of my personal favorites Schemes and Stones which is run by Khyodee. If you are looking for a great blog to read you should try AbnorMALifaux by InsidiouslyMade. But if new players really want a great place to do some solid reading about any master or faction PullMyFinger is a really good resource so good Wyrd links to it here. 

Sure the forum could pin a tactica, that gets long and drawn out and the information in there gets old due to FAQ's and the release of new waves of models or people can use the resources Wyrd supports to learn about the game.

One doesn't preclude the other.

A podcast means I have to download/listen to it, and thus an hours podcast takes me an hour to listen to, plus not all of it might be relevant (in the same way not all a tactica section is relevant, according to you), whereas a tactica I can skim in about 5 minutes, pick out the bits I want, and move on.  Even a new player would go through a tactica quicker than it takes to listen to the podcast, and you can do it on a train on your smartphone if you don't have your headphones.

 

Trying to say a tactica is pointless because you have podcasts is like trying to say books are pointless because you have spotify - they both have the same purpose (to entertain/inform) but do it in different ways, and one doesn't invalidate the other

 

*edit* also, the fact of the matter is that, say, the arcanist forums have, essentially, tacticas on marcus, kaeris, and now ironsides - they still seem to be much appreciated and in use despite the presence of pullmyfinger, blogs, and other stuff.  So, in the real world, other people seem to disagree with you.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Shadowfane

[RobertSirc]

I think you need to reread what I wrote. 

[Shadowfane]

Nah, I just edited to include resources and blogs - mostly because I posted before I remembered to address those rather than just podcasts

*edit* ok, re-read what I edited into the previous message, and it seems overly mean, so sorry about that.  The fact is that as good as the official resources page is, its still helpful to have things actually on the forums - somtimes you just want  to look at something without moving away, plus a pinned tactica with additional posts can have more ideas due to multiple people posting ideas and arguments as opposed to a blog/podcast which will only really have one or two peoples opinions.  Collaborative idea-forming is a thing, after all

Edited November 7, 2015 by Shadowfane

[Nical]

I agree that pinned tactica means that tactica becomes longer by new posts and there are already useful resources in Pullmyfinger, some blogs and podcasts.

But I think they don't mean pinned tactica does not become useless. Important things in tactica are always in it's first page and they can be updated like pullmyfinger / blog posts. And it may gather more thoughts about the models, so it may be more helpful to some people.

In addition, I think one longer pinned tactica may be better than repeated question / tactica threads. 

 

[Patzer]

Speaking of Lilith's Pull My Finger article. Joel have put down a solid base, but there is a ton of models and tricks which have come up since. If you have any thoughts, tactics, combos, for Lilith; add them there! I added something about Wings of Darkness the other day. Will look to add some additional hiring information soon too. Feel free to do the same  

[Sybaris]

Seems there's been a lot of coverage on this already but since i am a Nephilim player here's my take on the buy list:

Lilith's box, Mature and Youngs, Waldegeists,

Then, once she has learned the basics, and if she really likes Nephilim

Lilitu, Nekima, Black Blood Shaman, and extra terror tots

Then you have more than enough to play with for a long time.

Edited November 9, 2015 by Sybaris

[Sybarite]

Do people like to run Teddy with Lilith?

[vulky]

8 minutes ago, Sybarite said:

Do people like to run Teddy with Lilith?

People run Teddy when they need a big beater, in the case of Lilith being able to teleport models directly into the enemy crew, Teddy would be the best option against low WP factions (Resser/Gremlins). The other options for a beater are Juju, Nekima, Mature Nephilim... each of them with pros and cons.