Am I the only one to find Jakob Lynch to be meh?

[Mad Mojo]

I use Jake as my go to master. I run 2 illuminated and no beckoners. I don't focus on the brilliance conditions. If I get a chance to throw it out, great if not I don't sweat it.  He is a support master with a huge card cycling mechanic.  

Horrible hand even after stoning for 2? Activate early, mulligan and go to work. Good hand on the draw? Activate last grab 2 additional cards, mulligan and set your next turn up for killer activations. However, if you try to run him like VS or Mac, he will get slapped. 

Also if something gets within 8" of him it will probably go down if he has yet to activate.

The biggest thing is his learning curve and getting over the whole brilliance thing. My crew looks nothing like the starter box and I couldn't be happier with his performance. 

[4554551//]

Hey all,

I've been playing malifaux a couple times a week for about a year and a half now, so am still very new to the game. Just signed up to the forums to play in the Nythera event, and this thread caught my eye, as Jacob is, hands down, my favorite master.

I like him for his utility. Much like Leveticus with his hiring pool, or McMourning with his greatly differing play styles and options, Jacob is really is one of those masters that can do it all (except that one super heavy scheme marker round that finds it's way into every tournament but that's where Lucius comes in).

I've been relatively successful in my Jacobing, and for those interested (or bored), here is the sum of my experiences:

Firstly the guy above me is bang on in that brilliance is an added bonus and should be treated as such. Trying to play dealing it out as plan A every game, killing everything that moves, you'd be right to start looking the way of Pandora or Lil. Jacob can dish out the brilliance, and he can dish out the hurt, and it does keep the opponent on their toes. Using it as a crutch will make you feel like you're running an underpowered Levi.

Early on I started leaning towards activating him last, drawing the extra cards, and dishing out a bit of hurt to whatever's silly enough to be near by. I never "hoard cards", with an ace or two, a low card and what you draw at the end, you're on 5 damage with final debt. Plus the two from pay for blood and you're putting down pretty much anything (considering you've planned ahead and softened it up already), hoarding for an overkill defeats his primary benefit-CARDS! Drawing 2 then mulligan prepares you so well for each up coming turn your average hand is going to be a good 30%-40% (grain of salt) better than your opponents, which is going to be relevant no matter what you're trying to do. Hence the utility. You're better at doing everything, by virtue of always (mostly) having a better hand.

Crew building:

Start with a doppelganger and build from there.

Seriously, cheating initiative, manipulative, walk 6, don't mind me(interact while engaged)...for 7 stones? A bargain at 10. Adding to that the diversity of the crew (below) and the amazing variety of tricks they bring to the table, copying the ability you want a little more of at the given moment can not be overstated. Lure, sprint, various high power attacks and shots, tannen and graveses tricks. I once killed an opposing willie and heavily damaged a nearby performer by copying willies own attack right back at him, 3 times off the trigger. After sprinting to the other end off the board off the ace of masks.

She plays best when one of the models in the crew (tannen if you're running him, or a beckoner (as they both tend to hang back a bit more and can keep the upgrade alive)) has useless duplications. Often though, it is best on her, as you may want to keep the others more than 3" away, and the melee negative is relevant.. Adding so much survivability to the crews squishiest units.

Jacob typically carries woke up with a hand, rising sun (the other one is a trap), and expert cheater-but that last one is flexible.

I don't typically have the ability to take more than 2 or so stones, and while this is usually suicide with other masters, Jacobs hand manipulation and lack of need for burning to prevent (rising sun plus keeping back), a small handfull goes a long way.

Huggy I find best with fears given form, positioning typically keeps your units safe. And then a 50mm base, with a 3" engagement range can tie up half their crew. Addict works well, but as I only tend to use brilliance incidentally, it rarely does anything, so I save the stone. While occasionally I will (my most common use of stones in the crew) burn a stone for the extra damage and eat a big guy early, I typically wait for him to take a hit, then hit back triggering the healing. Knowing when to hit and when to obey can also be critical, read your opponents cards and see what you can do.

Most games I find myself taking 2 illuminated as standard. They are incredible, and 3 is great, but the diversity the crew can provide in support, plus the healing factor, it's more the opportunity cost that prevents me from taking more. Don't forget to paralyze enemy models by obeying with huggy and failing a horror dual against one of these bad boys.

Beckoners. Best 6 stone minion in the game. I'll take one if the schemes and strategies require it, mostly for the lure. Being able to copy what's needed with the dopple, I never take 2 (never is a strong word, always depends on the terrain and scheme pool), but I'd prefer not to. She tags brilliance pretty well too, but again, meh.

Terror tots, with ace in the whole, are incredible. Scheme dependent, but taking anywhere between 1 (for power ritual) and 3 (combination of schemes) is certainly possible and awesome. Some of the best (if not the best) scheme runners in the game. Don't discount the black blood when it comes to facing off opposing scheme runners. These guys will rarely come out second best against other 4-5 stone runners, and let's not forget def 6. Now I think I'm just preaching to the choir. I'll either take a couple of these, or...

Depleted. Boy are these guys amazing. Depending on the schemes and strats I'll take 2-3 (usually 2). Pull towards my own models on turn 1, then tarpit key areas and heavy hitters turn 2. Just don't take them with cursed object or distract. Yay for insignificant minions..

Graves and tannen.

Tannens chatty makes him an auto include for squatters rights and often cursed object/distract. Boring hitters in the middle of nowhere to tears is also good. Remembering he's a mimic, so useless duplications make him more survivable in a crew with dopple, or where he can pass off damage to illuminated.

Graves I don't take very often at all. he's good, again, it's opportunity cost. In scheme pools that require a bit of killing, or if I really want to keep tannen/jacob safe he occasionally earns a spot. Often with the retributions eye (armor piercing) upgrade.

Johan(a) is also good if you're expecting conditions coming at you. Typically if I hear resurrections from across the table, or suspect conditions I'll take her for that. Fringe benefits with finish the job for plant evidence, or plant explosives. I'll sometimes take her for those two as an extra hitter.

Performer, great for removing opposing scheme markers. In pools of dropping markers, she's a must have, coupled with dopple you're keeping the board clear pretty easily. Also lure.

BEST FOR LAST! (except dopple. dopple is best. always play dopple)

Black blood shaman. Surprisingly awesome stabbing your illuminated (though you're taking away the advantage of range 2 somewhat) with black blood, having them immediately regen, or stabbing your depleted, having them bleed all over the models they tie up, and giving them heals/defensive buffs. Also occasionally heals graves. but mostly there to give out black blood and black blood postulate. On depleted and illuminated, it's a wonderous thing.

Well, that was quite the rant. If anyone got this far, I'd love to hear what you all think. Even if it's to tell me why I'm wrong, always looking to improve.

Now let's win this Nythera thing for the neverborn! Cos there's nothing quite like a horror version of what it already the horror faction!

-4554551//

PS: I didn't forget stitched together, I just didn't consider them worth mentioning. In my opinion, they fail to measure up to the above mentioned models for the jobs that Jacob needs done. I'm not discarding the model in general, just in this crew.

[Whut]

How does one properly use the offensive power that Jacob generates? I felt the _potential_ power of the Illuminated but wasn't able to make great use of it. One got Red Jokered by a nothing beast on turn 2 after barely pinging a Void wretch and the other was stuck behind some rocks because I was too scared of bringing him out just to get charged by a Desolation Engine. I felt very static and heavily constrained by charge lanes and terrain.

I thought that might be the weakness that comes in exchange for the incredible hitting power against Brilliant models, but now I keep hearing people say not to specifically try to set up brilliance. Without Brilliance, they seem like pretty standard 7ss minions in terms of damage, and I wasn't able to take full advantage of their resilience (against Tara with a Desolation Engine and Nothing Beast, so either of those could kill an Illuminated in a single activation with Fast. I can see them as incredible against mid-range models and not heavy killers.)

[santaclaws01]

Well the Nothing Beast and especially a Desolation Engine are designed to take enemy models off the board.

[Vorschlag]

This is base economics look at the value of the illuminated and the value of the enemies your putting them up against.

Illuminated are very resiliant and can hit like a mule kicks but your punching outside their weight division.

If the model has a greater soul stone value than your model you may need to add something to your model to rebalance the scales.

Sometimes this will mean piling on with another model, other times simply spending extra ap to give something brilliance or it might even require assistance from a henchman or master.

 

Complaining that an illuminated got killed by a nothing beast or desolation engine is akin to claiming Leveticus is a weak master because his summoning tn is too high.

 

[4554551//]

How does one properly use the offensive power that Jacob generates? I felt the _potential_ power of the Illuminated but wasn't able to make great use of it. One got Red Jokered by a nothing beast on turn 2 after barely pinging a Void wretch and the other was stuck behind some rocks because I was too scared of bringing him out just to get charged by a Desolation Engine. I felt very static and heavily constrained by charge lanes and terrain.

I thought that might be the weakness that comes in exchange for the incredible hitting power against Brilliant models, but now I keep hearing people say not to specifically try to set up brilliance. Without Brilliance, they seem like pretty standard 7ss minions in terms of damage, and I wasn't able to take full advantage of their resilience (against Tara with a Desolation Engine and Nothing Beast, so either of those could kill an Illuminated in a single activation with Fast. I can see them as incredible against mid-range models and not heavy killers.)

So what you're asking is, how to use a 7ss model, to take out 10-12(10-14 assuming upgrades) stones worth of model(with fast?!)? You're not really supposed to.

Illuminated can be fantastic hitters if you use a beckoner or something to load up some brilliance, but other than that they are terrifying, tanky, self healy, flip extra acey, shooty, cheat damage on a negative flipey dudes, with a 2" reach. (which sort of adds to my earlier comments about Jacob being a super versatile master)

You get more than you pay for, but you can't expect to take on super expensive super dudes single handedly. Tag them with beckoners, tie them up with depleted, or have jacob/huggy do the job, and use your illuminated for other, more suitable tasks.

 

Also something I forgot to add to my earlier post:
Remember that useless duplications allow you to discard a card to give a negative flip to an Ml attack-which includes disengagement strikes. And the fact that those happen in your turn, means you can pitch an ace and get it back.

 

 

[RobertSirc]

As I know I am new to the game and I have only lost one game with Lynch, playing with a new crew I will address the "Not fun to play master" point. Big thing to remember with him is Lynch pulls shenanigans and that is part of what makes him fun to play. And most of the time you are just annoying your opponent with them. Ace in the Hole, is one of the most powerful tricks in the game with discarding cards for triggers. I have had games where I have had tots just own the board dropping scheme markers due to the ace of masks in my hand. 

Bottom line if you are the player who doesn't like shenanigans card cycling (arguably Lynch is the best at it), then find another master. But this whole thread has been about oh how bad Lynch is where it should have been about the people who can't see the forest through the trees.

[Phototoxin]

Lynch Plays the metagame - he messes with cards which allows you to mess with cards which allows him to mess with cards. I think.

And he gets a giant monster for free!

Sure he's slow, but he's versatile and can make sure that you have the right cards for the job when it matters.

[admiralvorkraft]

And he messes with your opponent's head with Expert Cheater.

So that's fun.

[Bodiless]

Something I will say in support of the OP - I wouldn't take Lynch into anything I considered a really competitive environment at this point. I think his lack of any serious protection against ranged damage is more or less crippling. With his short range if he is in range to do anything he is in range to get sniped/shot/blasted, and there really isn't much he can do about it other than burn stones and pray.

[santaclaws01]

Something I will say in support of the OP - I wouldn't take Lynch into anything I considered a really competitive environment at this point. I think his lack of any serious protection against ranged damage is more or less crippling. With his short range if he is in range to do anything he is in range to get sniped/shot/blasted, and there really isn't much he can do about it other than burn stones and pray.

A lot of masters have no special defenses against ranged damage, Lynch isn't special with his lack of it.

[Bodiless]

Among Neverborn he is pretty close. Lilith has trees, Pandora can defend with her Wp 7 and has a push on a miss, Dreamer can push attacks onto a Nightmare, Collodi can push damage onto a puppet. Zoraida puts you on a negative flip unless you have focused, which helps against things like rapid fire/furious casting but not against snipers. Lynch is Df 5, 10W, and has an extremely low cache. Even through hard cover a pair of the ubiquitous Trappers will bring him down in short order, to say nothing of what Librarians/Silent Ones/Sonnia/Rasputina can do.

[Adran]

He can buy squee on an upgrade, which can mess with rapid fire and so forth as well. 

 

EDIT-

See below. I didn't remember its restrictions, I blame it on there being at least 3 different versions of Squee ( Loudest  and second loudest in addition to squee)

Edited September 15, 2015 by Adran

[Bodiless]

He can buy squee on an upgrade, which can mess with rapid fire and so forth as well. 

Squeel only works against Ml attacks, unfortunately.

[BlitzMonkey]

Something I will say in support of the OP - I wouldn't take Lynch into anything I considered a really competitive environment at this point. I think his lack of any serious protection against ranged damage is more or less crippling. With his short range if he is in range to do anything he is in range to get sniped/shot/blasted, and there really isn't much he can do about it other than burn stones and pray.

I am new but I think this is incorrect.  You get tempo and hand control to burn through their cards first.  Trying to attack Lynch is hard to do in the few games I have had with him.  

[Bodiless]

I would say that your opponents are making things more complicated than they need to in that case, or may not tend to run some of the scarier ranged elements. If someone decides to invest the resources in killing him there just isn't that much to stop them.

[santaclaws01]

Among Neverborn he is pretty close. Lilith has trees, Pandora can defend with her Wp 7 and has a push on a miss, Dreamer can push attacks onto a Nightmare, Collodi can push damage onto a puppet. Zoraida puts you on a negative flip unless you have focused, which helps against things like rapid fire/furious casting but not against snipers. Lynch is Df 5, 10W, and has an extremely low cache. Even through hard cover a pair of the ubiquitous Trappers will bring him down in short order, to say nothing of what Librarians/Silent Ones/Sonnia/Rasputina can do.

Waldgeists can provide cover. His Df trigger makes the enemy take damage if they cheat, and you can pretty easily force them to or just beat them outright. There's also the defence of just not being in LoS, which isn't that hard. He's not meant to be in the thick of it or shooting in. He's there to get you the cards you need and erase anyone who gets near him.

[Bodiless]

At this point I don't actually rate cover as being a particularly good defense. Snipers are generally going to focus for range, canceling even hard cover. Trappers have a built-in positive to hit (or have access to one via an upgrade?), so they will blow through soft cover from a Waldgeist. Damaging casts don't care about cover either, and then there are lots of individual abilities that ignore it.

That leaves being out of LoS, although that will not protect him from a Pigapult, Austringers, etc. And if he is out of LoS of a well-positioned sniper then he is probably not doing a lot to control the board. If the board was set up in such a way that I thought he could have a solid effect on the game without getting his head blown off I might take him, but it would be very situational. Whereas there are other NB masters that I have a lot more confidence handling any situation that is thrown their way. Dreamer, Lilith, Collodi are the three that I see as the most survivable in any circumstance - everyone else is much more dependent on the details of the board and what I think they might be up against. All in my opinion, naturally, but I think the fact that they have rock-solid defensive capabilities really sets them apart from the other masters.  

[4554551//]

What about the super simple charging your incorporial wk/ch 6 ml3 beatstick/tarpit into the snipers. With beckoner/dopple giving him an early nudge for a little extra range?

Snipers have never been a problem for me through a combination of staying out of sight and being able to engage everything; with the mad range on illuminated/huggy coupled with lures

Out of the last.. wow..15-20 odd games I've only lost lynch twice.

Once through a seamus doing what seamus does-teleport, focus, red joker damage. (Him and willie are the only "snipers" that give me grief)

And once through getting stupidly close to lady J and having her come around in a way that I squeel into a wall. That was my own dumb fault.

Point is he's not that hard to protect if you take a little bit of care in positioning, and jam early.

 

Pigapault, and gremlins in general are a real pain though. I don't really have a good way of beating a good gremlins list. I'm convinced they're the most powerful faction, and people just don't notice because they are so used to them being an under represented sub faction.

Edited September 19, 2015 by 4554551//
pigapault

[Bodiless]

Trappers can discard a card to push 4" out of melee, so unless you can send two models after each one they are very difficult to jam. Not to mention leaving your jamming piece dangerously exposed. 

[santaclaws01]

Illumianted are very tanky and Huggy can just come back, as well as having Incorp and a few built in heals. You're also forcing your opponent to discard cards to protect them for a turn at most.

[Yvarre]

 

Out of the last.. wow..15-20 odd games I've only lost lynch twice.

This is my experience as well, and, in somewhere around half of those games, Lynch killed my opponent's master personally. 

One key to his effectiveness and survivability for me is to play his first couple turns more conservatively, keeping him out of LOS while stacking the hand to support other models surviving and killing things to set up the board for him to opportunistically target models he is sure to kill turns 3-5 with little retaliation.  I often just joke that he is cowering on turns 1 and 2, which isn't the most effective use of AP, but Lynch has at least 5 AP as a master, 2 of which are a giant incorporeal beatstick that happens to be a separate model that can get ANYWHERE fast.  Being a 2 model master also allows him to hire more elite crews without falling too far behind on activations, and in lower stone games it can lead to out activation with an elite crew quite easily.

I also like throwing off my opponent's combat math on turns 4 or 5 by overextending Huggy in the first couple turns and letting him be buried, often taking a model or two with him and a bunch of opponent AP, meanwhile Lynch slowly maneuvers.  He pops out and one shots something on 4 or 5; Huggy unburies and proceeds to kill things or, more often, complete the scheme points for breakthrough, entourage, etc.

I agree that the brilliance is usually icing on the cake, but having a beckoner give out brilliance for Huggy gives Huggy + to attack and damage on all of his flips, freeing him to heal or envelop more, and it allows Lynch to go right into Final Debt, giving him an extra move to position or hide if need be.  This is especially relevant when he is in the 10-14 inch range away from something and needs to walk twice to get Huggy back.

Also,  depleted are great because they do alot without having to waste cards to keep them alive.  Their built in minus to damage flips means that most attacks are still at a minus unless there is a difference or 11 more, and their role is to soak up AP, shut down shooters, and soften the frustrated model that has to fight them enough to kill them.  Then, the 10 inch threat range of an illuminated hones in on that brillianced target that just killed the depleted, usually with a couple face cards from Lynch's last mulligan. 2 Flips with min damage of 4 that are very likely hitting: 8 Damage!  Flay Trigger for moderate on one? 10 Damage! 2 Moderates? 12 Damage!   Most things are dead.

While lacking the board control and raw AOE damage of Sonia, the flexibility of Levi, the guerrilla versatility of Lilith, or the dreamer's stronger abilities as a support and summoning master, etc., Lynch is still quite competitive in my book when you can really play the position game as well as the card game.  Scheme runner meet my illuminated.  Ranged support- the darkness is coming at you out of the wall.  While some masters buff or move things around to support, Lynch makes sure his hand is stacked; so if you like cards...

"It just takes a good poker face and knowin' what to use your hand for." ~Jacob "Lucky" Lynch

 

P.S. I don't have Stitched models yet, but Tannen's cooler + Stitched + stacked hand = ?

[EnternalVoid]

Another trick I love that makes me always want a Beckoner is that unlike other lure users she gets that free push with it from her trigger.  Generally my first turn when I play with HD is to walk the Beckoner forward and lure the HD.  Beckoner gets up 9" and HD starts several inches closer.  Funnier one is when you have Mr. Grave show the Beckoner the door first and then lure the HD twice.  Surprised a player with models advance deployed that way to get a first turn charge with HD on them.

[Oldman lee]

Have to say he sounds kind of cool I might have to add him to my list of stuff to buy 

[PharaonXIII]

 

Most games I find myself taking 2 illuminated as standard. They are incredible, and 3 is great, but the diversity the crew can provide in support, plus the healing factor, it's more the opportunity cost that prevents me from taking more. Don't forget to paralyze enemy models by obeying with huggy and failing a horror dual against one of these bad boys.

 

Well, wow. Wanted to correct you on this one, since Heed My Voice's target considers friendly.

But after rereading the action, it's the target, who considers Huggy (and only him?) friendly. Did I get it right?