When has a model activated?

[HalcyonSeraph]

Short version: Does a model count as "having activated" at the START of their activation, or not until they END their activation?

 

Two scenarios where this matters:

 

Model A has Manipulative and activates, and tries to walk away from Model B, triggering a disengaging strike. Does model B have to check Manipulative?

 

Tara has a buried Killjoy and a rat. The rat is the last model on the table for Tara's crew that has yet to activate (other than KJ who is buried) and tara has Eternal Journey up. The rat activates, does some stuff, and sacrifices, bringing out KJ. Did Tara gain reactivate at the start of the rat's activation, or does she now have to wait until after KJ goes becuase she suddenly has another model?

 

My own interpretation is that once you choose to activate a model, it has been activated. Others disagree and say you have not activated until you are DONE activating. 

 

I asked Justin on twitter and he said to bring it here, so here it is. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

My particular feeling is at the start of their activation, and have always played it as such. 

[MrDeathTrout]

Page 33 of the small rule book it says

"When a player Activates one of her controlled models the Activation follows these steps in order:

1. Resolve activation steps

2. Generate AP"

etc.

 

From that I would say the model is considered activated before does anything

[AoS]

Of course, first you activate a model, then the model generate action points. So before that model can do anything, it have to get activated.

[Dirial]

Agree. Just from the word of it, activation is the moment the model goes active.

[zFiend]

Of course, first you activate a model, then the model generate action points. So before that model can do anything, it have to get activated.

This.

[Jeebus]

But if a model can do things at the beginning of its activation (reckless for example) and things refer to ending activations (paralyze, etc.), then wouldn't there be a distinct separation of 'activating model' and 'activated model'? basically shouldn't the tense of the word count. present tense vs. past tense.

 

I see it as begin your activation, do all the stuff that happens during your activation (generate ap and the like), then end your activation. after all this a model is considered activated.  

[Dirial]

But if a model can do things at the beginning of its activation (reckless for example) and things refer to ending activations (paralyze, etc.), then wouldn't there be a distinct separation of 'activating model' and 'activated model'? basically shouldn't the tense of the word count. present tense vs. past tense.

 

I see it as begin your activation, do all the stuff that happens during your activation (generate ap and the like), then end your activation. after all this a model is considered activated.  

 

That would lead to a model being in a limbo between "not yet activated" and "already activated" while it's active. I don't think that to be true. The moment it switches over from the former to the latter is the moment you declare "This model activates".

[zFiend]

That would lead to a model being in a limbo between "not yet activated" and "already activated" while it's active. I don't think that to be true. The moment it switches over from the former to the latter is the moment you declare "This model activates".

That is my understanding as well. You declare which model activates.

[MasterDisaster]

As far as I can tell a model is not activated until the player decides to activate it. "Activated" is past tense so until it's activation it is fine. As soon as it's being declared as the acting model is has been activated as it's activation occurred in the past. Regardless of whether it still has AP to spend during it's current activation or has spent it all and it's the end of the game turn. That model has been activated, past tense. 

[Jeebus]

As far as I can tell a model is not activated until the player decides to activate it. "Activated" is past tense so until it's activation it is fine. As soon as it's being declared as the acting model is has been activated as it's activation occurred in the past. Regardless of whether it still has AP to spend during it's current activation or has spent it all and it's the end of the game turn. That model has been activated, past tense. 

 

alright, i can buy that. Basically the activating of a model and a model's activation are two separate terms.  

[MasterDisaster]

alright, i can buy that. Basically the activating of a model and a model's activation are two separate terms.  

 

Yeah, that's basically how I read it. Oh the joys of the English language

[papa smurf]

I choose model x to activate. I am activating model x.

I spend ap during its activation.

Model x goes to end activation step

Model x has activated.

As opposed to I activate model X. Model x has now activated.

Model x spends ap during its activation. Model x moves to end activation step.

It's the context of what activated is. For, Eternal: Once all other friendly models have Activated, this model gains the Reactivate Condition.

It's past tense.

But that is debatable.

When does eternal check to see when Tara gets reactivate? Immediately when you choose your last model to activate. Or when you are given permission to activate a model which you can't so Tara gains reactivate and can be chosen to activate.

Eternal says once all other friendly models... You know only what has activated and what has not during the activation step of the turn. Only during this step is it 100% certain that "all other friendly models" have activated. During your own models activation you might gain a model or during your opponents.

So rat activates gains fast from infectious melodies. Walks three times and poops out killjoy. Opponent checks to see what models left to activate chooses one, or skips their place. You check to see if you have any models. You must choose killjoy. He has been activated. Opponent picks or skips as applicable. You check to see if you have any models to activate. You do not eternal kicks in Tara gets reactivate and you now have a model that can activate.

Not rats activates. Tara gains reactivate. Rat dies pops out kill joy. Opponent goes. Now you have Tara or killjoy to activate.

[HalcyonSeraph]

That is not true. You don't "only know" during the activation step. There's no timing anywhere that says you check then and only then. If, in fact, a model has activated as soon as you activate it, then as soon as that happens Tara gains reactivate. There's no wording or indication that would say you wait until the next time you need to activate a model to check that. 

 

We are told over and over again that when there is no game timing given,to use regular English. Regular English would interpret the phrase "once all other models have activated" to trigger as soon as all other models have activated, not at some particular game step later on. If it was meant to only check during the activation step, it would say "During the activation step, if you have no models who may activate, Tara gains reactivate"

[trikk]

I have to say I`m with Smurf on this one. If its your turn to activate you check who you can activate. No one? Tara gets reactivate. Killjoy? Tara doesn`t get reactivate as Killjoy didn`t activate yet. 

[moxypoo]

I agree with Papa Smurf too - that sequence is how I've always played that situation, and I think it makes the most logical sense with the wording of the rules.

[Kadeton]

It's possibly worth noting, as an additional wrinkle, that Tara's Eternal Moment doesn't specify that it only cares about models in play (ie not Buried) or only models that are "eligible to activate". She gains Reactivate once "all other friendly models have activated." It would be easy to interpret it in such a way that, if a Buried model had not yet activated, Tara could not Reactivate.

I've not seen anyone play it that way (it would drive a stake through the heart of Tara's core gameplay) but that's certainly how the precise wording reads to me.

[papa smurf]

I direct you kadeton to this thread.

http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/101932-tara-bomb-doesnt-work/?hl=tara

[flindo]

I have always assumed start, like for reckless with gremlins you have to suffer a damage once you activated.

[papa smurf]

Reckless: At the start of this model's Activation, it may suffer 1 damage to generate 1 additional General AP.

Nothing about being activated.

You are activating a model. It is that models activation.

If you have activated it's no longer your activation. English. What a great language.

[Kadeton]

I'm with the Smurf on the natural language interpretation, to be honest.

An "activation" is a period of (abstract) time, which has a start and an end, and during which, stuff happens. It's much like a "life".

Something can happen at "the start of your life". Other things can happen while you are "living". After your life ends, you have "lived".

[Patzer]

It's possibly worth noting, as an additional wrinkle, that Tara's Eternal Moment doesn't specify that it only cares about models in play (ie not Buried) or only models that are "eligible to activate". She gains Reactivate once "all other friendly models have activated." It would be easy to interpret it in such a way that, if a Buried model had not yet activated, Tara could not Reactivate.

I've not seen anyone play it that way (it would drive a stake through the heart of Tara's core gameplay) but that's certainly how the precise wording reads to me.

Nice observation.

[trikk]

Yes, but debunked already as incorrect.

[Myyrä]

How did the model become active if it hasn't activated?

[Patzer]

Has it? I checked the FAQ, nothing about it there, but plenty about Tara.

 

Edit. Just to clarify. My assumption was that Trikk's previous post were a response to mine.

[Adran]

How did the model become active if it hasn't activated?

 

Because it is activating.