A bit dissapointed.....

[SixtySix]

I was all excited to learn this game thinking the card flipping would be a a neat aspect to the game.  I was very wrong.  After a couple games, I am very convinced that 75% of this game is won/lost when you shuffle your deck.  I guess that is why it is called a Fate Deck.....your fate is decided before you even start the game.  Take Blackjack for example.  If everyone takes the cards they are "supposed to", the game is already played before the cards are even flipped...the only variable is how much money you bet each hand.  For all you very experianced Malifaux players, I bet you could look at both players hands and top 3rd of their deck and pretty much know who is going to "win" that round before the round starts.  I feel the only way to even the playing field a bit is to run the decks down all the way before reshuffles.  I think this is a very neat game, but I just feel the card aspect of the game favors luck way over skill.  You cannot get an average flip, like in dice.  Anyone else have thoughts or opinions about his?

[McSwervy]

I find luck has much less to do with winning than in any other miniatures game.  Sure, once in a while the cards just aren't in your favor but that's what your Control Hand is for, to mitigate those instances.  If you have a band hand, stone for cards.  If you still have a bad hand than you know that most of your good cards are in your fate deck and you'll have a better chances in the duels. 

Most games of Malifaux I've played have been decided on the skill of those playing.  I'm not saying that luck isn't involved at all, just that the game gives you ways to mitigate it. 

Can I ask how many games you've played?  Because when I started I lost my first few games because I wasn't managing my resources properly; not knowing when to cheat, when to use soulstones, etc.  After playing more games I've become much better at being able to look at my starting hand and thinking, "Okay, I have these cards in these suites, what can I do with them".  It's also interesting because in many cases, depending on Strat/Schemes, trying to hit your opponent with an ability isn't necessarily the best option, just move and drop that scheme marker where you need it, or position the model better to do something next turn.

I don't know, those are just my opinions. 

[Carcosa]

Unless you can determine who is going to move when, what cards will be played against each other and account for triggers on suits you cannot make that assessment.  

[ArcticPangolin]

I disagree. Of course, most people that respond here will too; we love this game and the card mechanic is a core component of it, so you're bound to have a lot of disagreement.

 

It also comes down to individual players and how they play the game, as certain players will want to activate some models over others depending upon their playstyle. I also don't understand what you mean by there being no average flip. Surely by knowing what all the possible outcomes are you are able to determine the average? From the level of analysis you are discussing it wouldn't be very hard.

 

The thing I dislike about dice-based mechanics is that if you are only going to roll 1's the entire game, in the vast majority of games you are going to lose, no matter the skill levels of the players involved. WIth Malifaux's mechanics those low (and high!) cards only come up once each shuffle. Dice's only merit is that each roll of the dice has no factors influencing the outcome of the roll.

 

Another game I love is the Game of Thrones boardgame. Although superficially it appears very similar to Risk, any random events affect all players, and battles are a matter of planning ahead and bluffing/guile rather than someone rolling badly or well.

[valhallan42nd]

If you can count cards, yes, you can manipulate the fate deck, which is one of the reasons you're not allowed to look at the discard pile. 

It's one of the strengths of the game, and it's another element of control built into the game. As you play, you begin to get a feel for what part of the curve your deck is in, and you can start using mechanics like focus and defensive stance to manipulate the remaining cards in the deck. You can also play Nico/Toshiro/Punk Zombie style crews that give         flips to minions and mill through your deck asap, recycling said luck and making your opponent work that much harder to guess where you are.

It's not a bug; it's a feature. Dice are random and capricious. The Fate deck is another weapon in your arsenal, when properly handled. 

[Carcosa]

To add to the above.

Even if you can count cards, the numerical values are not the only thing you have to be concerned with, but the suits as well, and weather your opponent will cheat, or soulstone for suit.

[paradoxstorm]

 After a couple games, I am very convinced that 75% of this game is won/lost when you shuffle your deck. 

 

By this reasoning there is no reason to play bridge, poker, or any other card game with a skill element since they are won/lost once the deck is shuffled.  

[J_D]

Luck will always play a part in any game, that is part of the fun 

 

I wouldn't say I can count cards, but I do run statistics through my head all the time (ie I need this number or suit, there are X number in the deck plus Y number in my hand) and I try to watch what my opponent plays as well (you can get an idea of their hand by when they cheat), but in saying that there are way too many variables to ever really know exactly how things are going to work.

[Carcosa]

Counting cards is a -skill- some people have, and it is perfectly fine to use -any- skill you happen to have to any game, but being able to count cards, or even run statistical probabilities in your head is no more valuable on the tabletop that the ability to out-think or out-bluff your opponent.

 

You are right J_D, there is just too much to consider to make it a simple game of calculations. If it were, every person who could count cards would be a master chess player.

[CapnBloodbeard]

I disagree with your principle that the cards won't even out when dice do.  Quite the opposite actually - in a turn there's a fairly decent chance you'll go through quite a chunk of the deck, if not the entire deck.  Get a bad run at the start and you'll get a good run later.  There's no requirement with dice that a 6 WILL turn up - but a red joker WILL turn up in the deck of cards.

 

I find the really hard part - and it probably doesn't get enough discussion on here - is knowing when to cheat and when to let it go.  If you cheat at the wrong time you're leaving yourself completely at the mercy of the Card Gods later.  Luck does play a part, no doubt.  Some games your opponent just seems to get all the critical flips go his way.  Everytime you flip a 12, he gets the 13 - and whenever you get the 13 it was when you didn't really want it.

 

I definitely disagree that the game is won/lost at the shuffle.  When are the critical flips?  Early in the turn?  Later?  You have no way of knowing.

 

There's definitely the poker element as well - you could cheat a flip, but you're also trying to suss out what cards your opponent has in his hand and whether he's likely to cheat as well.  It's a subtle skill.

 

Some people think it's good when your control hand is bad because you know that's 6 bad cards that aren't in the deck.  I'm yet to be convinced

 

I suspect you've been beaten in a lot of duels and are getting frustrated......maybe there's another reason?  Low stat models coming up against high stat models, or you're falling on the wrong side of fate modifiers?

[Math Mathonwy]

For all you very experianced Malifaux players, I bet you could look at both players hands and top 3rd of their deck and pretty much know who is going to "win" that round before the round starts.

No, this is impossible. To pick a trivial example, two cards that come out on a positive twist vs a negative twist can be really good or really bad (a 13 and an ace, for example) and what twist you will get depends on your and your opponent's actions.

Malifaux is very, very much skill-based.

[zFiend]

After a couple games, I am very convinced that 75% of this game is won/lost when you shuffle your deck.

 

This is simply not true at all. 

 

Sometimes sure, your deck just properly messes with your game and you keep on getting absolute waste in your control hand or flips but it'll even out on your moves and actions. If you have a terrible control hand and go off trying to summon a model that can be done with only two cards in the deck without a stone, well that's not the decks fault. 

 

There are many ways within factions to get more out of models in the form of on defense or attack flips or damage flips and taken these into account show you know how to plan ahead and manipulate the deck = skill. 

 

If you have a bad control hand you're more likely to flip a bit better than your opponent. At this time you need to alter your plan accordingly. 

 

As many have said, this game is highly on the skill level of the player. The card system, especially the control hand takes away a lot of the luck element, sure that luck is still there but it has to be in every game. But it takes away the fact that it's all luck. It takes skill to handle those resources you're given and plan out accordingly to the resources at hand. I like the dice roll games at times (namely Eden, Bloodbowl) but it's a dice roll game and I usually feel like I miss out having a few dices on my hand that I can just swap in the place of the bad ones.

 

Give it a few more games (more than a couple) and you'll see it'll all start coming together. This game has a pretty deep learning curve and can be frustrating at times but I promise you once you do learn this game, this is the absolute best.

[Carcosa]

To slightly disagree with ZFiend.

 

I don't think the rules have a steep learning curve at all, but sometimes the way masters can break those rules -can- be a bit hard to deal with sometimes.

Even then, they do tend to do it in specific ways by either giving out  or ,  or giving additional benefits to those two states. Sure there are some abilities that break the rules in other ways (such as charging while engaged for example) but 95% of the time, the rules "on card" are pretty clear.

[zFiend]

 

I don't think the rules have a steep learning curve at all

 

The rules don't. But I said the game. The game does have, when you have to take into account and learn everything about your own crew, opponents crew, activation order and it's importance, when to cheat or not to cheat, what actions to take, when to take them etc. 

 

The rules are fairly easy. Model cards might be fairly easy. To actually work with them in an efficient way isn't. 

[Shadowdragon]

Counting cards is a -skill- some people have, and it is perfectly fine to use -any- skill you happen to have to any game, but being able to count cards, or even run statistical probabilities in your head is no more valuable on the tabletop that the ability to out-think or out-bluff your opponent.

 

You are right J_D, there is just too much to consider to make it a simple game of calculations. If it were, every person who could count cards would be a master chess player.

 

Which is why Malifaux doesn't have premeasuring which is only added to games to counter those with the skill to accurately gauge distances... oh wait.

[Dirial]

Which is why Malifaux doesn't have premeasuring which is only added to games to counter those with the skill to accurately gauge distances... oh wait.

 

Premeasuring...it's about weighing different skills, and the one you mentioned wasn't deemed very interesting... wait, no, I'll not start that debate again.

[Kadeton]

Which is why Malifaux doesn't have premeasuring which is only added to games to counter those with the skill to accurately gauge distances... oh wait.

Well, Malifaux also lacks a juggling component to cater to those with excellent hand-eye coordination, and it doesn't have a downhill skiing component either - not all skills are relevant to this game, nor should they be.

Don't get me wrong, I can judge 36" to within 1/8" by eye as well as anyone who has played GW games for two decades, but that was a skill I picked up because I was forced to, not because it was fun. It's not that pre-measuring is "added to games to counter those with skill", it's that range-guessing is removed from games because it's tedious, exclusionary and irrelevant.

[Carcosa]

@Zfiend

................So, you are agreeing with me then?

I am not sure what your "objection" may be if you are not; as I specified, even in the part you quoted that the rules are easy.

[Dirial]

Well, Malifaux doesn't have a downhill skiing component either

 

It would be awesome, though!

[Adran]

  For all you very experianced Malifaux players, I bet you could look at both players hands and top 3rd of their deck and pretty much know who is going to "win" that round before the round starts. 

 

I'm largely echoing Math, but no, I couldn't do this. But my turn plans very differently if I have a poor control hand.

I find bloodbowl is a good example. The good bloodbowl players will do all the things they have to do with out rolling dice to start with. If I need a certain card to get a certain action off, I eitehr save the card from my hand to do it, or if I don't have the card, come up with a new plan. I work out the "safe" actions, and when I want to do those actions.

Most of the most important actions to win the game are based on positioning and interacting. Those don't require a flip.

Luck does plan an important part of the game, and you can play games where you fget appalling luck, but it is much more likely to even out over the course of a game that in a dice based game. Skill will make a bigger difference that luck in most cases.

Even those games "I lost because of that Black joker on that flip (and they are surprisdingly many)", I could have mitigated that flips importance with a bit bettter play.

 

Turns when you have a poor control hand you want to learn the Defensive stance action and the Focus action. They make a huge difference to your turn.

 

Oh, and in a lot of my games, we each use over 90% of the deck in 3 or more turns. If I onl;y flipped 10 cars a turn, then I might have an idea of how the turn plays out by knowing the top 1/3 of each, but even then skill (and risk understanding/management) makes a big difference. .

 

Edit

Look at a good Wong player for their use of lovely assistant, to know how your turn chnages when you know what cards are coming up, and how you can maximise what you can get.

[trikk]

We also have to acknowledge, that a) if you have a bad hand you can discard it and therefore not have those cards next turn which increases your chance of a higher hand next turn

b ) you can use soulstones

c) you can focus/defensive stance that goes through your deck faster

 

Only reason this game really becomes "hand dependant" is like when a player has a hand like I did "13, 13, 13, red joker, 10, 6". This makes you do whatever you want for 1-2 activation but drains your hand very fast.

 

I also disagree that the turn is set whenever the deck is set. Activation sequence, cheating, soulstones for suits, redrawing with soulstones, using 'discard a card to" abilities to make the best use of a bad hand etc. will all make you get the best out of a badly shuffled fate deck.

[Ausplosions]

This is a fairly ridiculous proposition all round. 

 

There is absolutely no way you can "know how the round will go" even if you knew what the cards were for the entire Deck. 

[Rob Lo]

It's just a different way of thinking about the randomness, really. With a deck of cards, you are 'setting' the randomness at the time of the shuffle, but even then how many and when those cards get flipped depends entirely on a rather large number of choices. Do you activate model A or model B first, does your opponent move X or Y, do they use an ability or not. Easily, easily more diverse possible number of options than say, a game of chess, which if there were some chess/card game, where the board and the pieces the same each game, I could perhaps go with the initial premise. Here, the crews are different every time, the terrain different, strats and schemes, deployment. Hell, I'll approach the exact same strats/schemes/board with entirely different crews and plans based on my mood at the moment. God knows that's random as hell.

 

And as has been said, dice are always individually random at the time you throw 'em. You know you're only ever going to see 4 13s from your opponent. You will see the black joker, the red. When is the question. Set in stone by the order the cards were shuffled, but manifested entirely by the choices of the people playing. And the combination of cards and choices is much more random than a 1 in 6 will ever be.

[jonahmaul]

Something that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that cards are often completely irrelevant to accomplishing strats and schemes in Malifaux.  Of the strats in the rulebooks Squatters Rights and Stake a Claim require you to be in the right place and take Interact actions whilst Turf War and Reconnoiter only require you to move models into particular positions.  Reckoning is the only one that requires you to kill and so is dependent on cards.  The scheme breakdown is even less dependent on cards with only Assassinate, Bodyguard, Make them Suffer, Vendetta and Murder Protoge being particularly dependent on cards from a possible 19 schemes.  Of course the cards will still have an impact because killing off enemy models and protecting yours will help you accomplish the schemes but I have never looked at my hand and thought I'm going to lose this game/turn.

[TehMik]

I was all excited to learn this game thinking the card flipping would be a a neat aspect to the game.  I was very wrong.  After a couple games, I am very convinced that 75% of this game is won/lost when you shuffle your deck.  I guess that is why it is called a Fate Deck.....your fate is decided before you even start the game.  Take Blackjack for example.  If everyone takes the cards they are "supposed to", the game is already played before the cards are even flipped...the only variable is how much money you bet each hand.  For all you very experianced Malifaux players, I bet you could look at both players hands and top 3rd of their deck and pretty much know who is going to "win" that round before the round starts.  I feel the only way to even the playing field a bit is to run the decks down all the way before reshuffles.  I think this is a very neat game, but I just feel the card aspect of the game favors luck way over skill.  You cannot get an average flip, like in dice.  Anyone else have thoughts or opinions about his?

 

I do have thoughts. Most of them disagree with your thoughts. I've found that having a control hand allows for a lot more, well, control over a game that relies purely on dice.

 

Bad luck happens in all games. I'm sure everyone on this forum has a story about "this one time..." where the deck just decided that nope, it was not going to cooperate. But more often than not there are ways to mitigate (soul stones, etc).

 

Give it another shot, you'll be pleasantly surprised.