Rabble Rousing and Whining Thread

[Icemyn]

With the Wave 3 book coming out this year I wanted to register my complaints with some models I feel are above the power curve in the hopes that they can get some errata. (Wave 1 errata cards showed up in the Wave 2 arsenal decks) What follows are my opinions based on my observations, feel free to disagree of course, but try to explain why you disagree if you would. Saying x isn't overpowered L2P doesn't help anyone. 

 

Guild:
Francisco- Totally balanced outside of El Mayor. I have seen people suggest a "non-master" clause be added and I would be 100% behind that change. That or change its duration to end of turn. 

 

Papa Loco- I honestly don't mind this model, even "Hold This" on masters. Some people think it is overpowered so I am mentioning it here. 

 

Austringers-  If Wyrd believed this model was balanced it wouldn't have the "non-austringer" wording on Lucius and Dashel. This model should be Sh6, gain the gun symbol on its base profile and have the choice of ignoring LOS OR Cover, but not both. Focus should still increase range to 18". The model already has a way to leave combat if it wants no reason to add the claw symbol. I don't know why this model even has a peacebringer honestly. 

 

Resurrectionists:  

Belles- Do I really need to say why? The only counter argument I see is that it's the only thing they do, which just isn't a very good one. Even without Lure they are arguably as good as other 5ss models in the game. Ca8 is just far too high for a minion.

 

Hanged(zFiend)- Whispers from Beyond shouldn't do all that it does: Halve the wounds, prevent healing without a gun icon and ca6 for (1) AP.

 

Nurses(zFiend)- Take your Meds - being able to paralyze models with Ca6 to Rg 8" might be a tad much too.

 

Arcanists:
Collette- Prompt needs to have this wording added to it, "This action may not target the same model more than once per Turn." Prompt spam on a beater is literally the opposite of what Collette was designed to do. 

 

Soulstone Miner: The Enemy down Below change this to "the beginning of any turn" instead of the end. This stops Levi anchor shenanigans as well as reconnoiter/Interference headaches. Tactically this changes nothing. 

 

Mechanical Rider- Once this comes out in plastic it will be an auto include similar to Francisco. I really don't how it can change at this point without a rewrite. Maybe only drop one scheme marker max?

 

Metal Gamin- Magnetism needs it's Ca reduced to like 5 or 6. Minions should not have 8s anywhere near their stat lines. 

 

Neverborn:

Collodi- Upgrade- Strum the Threads - Should probably say "non master" 4 ap collodi with a brutal effigy healing him up just felt too good when I was playing him. 

 

Stitched Together- Imagine this world: Dreamer summons three stitched all at one wound. Activate the first he heals to 2 wounds gambles with something loses or cheats down to lose, gains reactivate. Now it activates again(healing again) gambling 2 more times because its not slow. Repeat 2 more times Ignoring H2W I2W white doing 3/4/7. This is not ok. regardless of whether or not they are summoned. I would suggest ALL of these changes: A) Rare 2 B )Change gamble to Ca5 C) reduce damage to 2/3/5.

 

Lelu- Should only cost 6ss just not worth it at 7. (I know this isn't a Cuddle)

 

Outcasts: 

Leveticus- I'll suggest the same as I did before with regards to limiting his hiring pool. Rainbow Levi and Belle Spam Levi really should not be options. There was an absurd amount of Outcasts/Levi at Adepticon in both the team tournament and the masters. I don't mind that 20% of the field for both events was Outcast I mind that the vast majority were running Levi. 

 

Ashes and Dust- "or sacrificed" Should be removed from Desolate Core. Levi being able to sacrifice him at literal no cost to reposition or draw cards is too good. I can't think of any offensive ability that can sacrifice Ashes so this really doesn't change his survivability. Using a 0 action so suddenly claim another table quarter or score Outflank trivially is unreasonable. 

 

Ten Thunders:

McCabe/Luna/Guild Hound Companion missile- I can't believe this is a thing that is legal. I understand that companion functions this way RAW so that is why the errata went the way it did. It is however counter intuitive and idiotic. Scoring 3vp from a 3ss dog (deliver a message) is not ok. Companion/Accomplice should not allow a model to chain activate itself. 

 

Sidir/By Your Side(zFiend)- Kinda breaks the game rules with all that it prevents the opponent from doing, being able to prevent Schemes and disengaging strikes etc.

 

Gremlins:

Ulix/Shot in the Rear?- I'm told this is unfair and NPE, but I have never seen it on the table.

 

There are probably several Gremlin models that should be listed here, but since they aren't really available as a faction I never get to see them on the table. 

 

Quick aside: Many people in this community believe that the only way to determine if something is OP is for it to dominate a long string of tournaments. There are a few problems with that logic and I wanted to cover it here. 

1) The Malifaux community is not large enough for that logic to work out. There are only what ~12 "big" tournaments a year? The game is not being played often enough or extensively enough for anyone to gather enough data to be convincing one way or the other. 

2) With the games taking as long as they do tournaments only last 3-5 rounds. Let's say 64 people show up to a 5 round tournament. After the 5 rounds 2 people will be undefeated. Losing one round to a bad pair, a play mistake, bad cards, whatever, literally removes you from the conversation. 

3) Even if model x is overpowered not everyone owns model x or wants to play it. Some people will stick to their faction regardless of what is arguably better. 

 

If you feel that I missed something on this list feel free to point it out and explain why you feel that way. I am more than happy to update the list. 

[dgraz]

 

Guild:

Francisco- Totally balanced outside of El Mayor. I have seen people suggest a "non-master" clause be added and I would be 100% behind that change. That or change its duration to end of turn. 

 

 

If you do this, then what will you do for 'Dita? Who will almost instantly become one of the easier to kill masters in the game. Yes she can kill well and she has a high Df/Wp.....but she also has one of the lower Wd stats in the game for a master.

I don't always use El Mayor on her for the entire game, but certainly turns 1 and 2....especially if there are speedy killers across the table.

[zFiend]

Hanged, Whispers from Beyond shouldn't do all that it does: Halve the wounds, prevent healing without a gun icon and ca6 for (1) AP. 

 

Sidir's By Your Side kinda breaks the game rules with all that it prevents the opponent from doing, being able to prevent Schemes and disengaging strikes etc. 

 

Nurses being able to paralyze models with Ca6 to Rg 8" might be a tad much too. 

 

Ophelia and Som'er with Thinking Luck make a whole lotta dead models. 

 

But the changes that be made would probably be too much and too high to actually see this happening, as they would need to change a lot of models people agree/disagree on the level of their power. For example, I don't quite understand why Lynch was errata'd.

[Myyrä]

I don't really agree with you about the Guild Hound missile. If the dog isn't given the badge of speed for nimble it isn't any faster than a Silurid with fast, and if it is given the badge, then the cost is far from one 3ss model if done on turn 1.

[Icemyn]

If you do this, then what will you do for 'Dita? Who will almost instantly become one of the easier to kill masters in the game. Yes she can kill well and she has a high Df/Wp.....but she also has one of the lower Wd stats in the game for a master.

I don't always use El Mayor on her for the entire game, but certainly turns 1 and 2....especially if there are speedy killers across the table.

DIta has a better stat line and similar defensive abilities to Lucius Sonnia and McCabe.

I'm not sure what you mean. 

 

I don't really agree with you about the Guild Hound missile. If the dog isn't given the badge of speed for nimble it isn't any faster than a Silurid with fast, and if it is given the badge, then the cost is far from one 3ss model if done on turn 1.

It's the Nimble and the reactivate so about twice as fast as a Silurid. I believe the coverage was worked out at 30+ inches. Yes if you do this outside of 10" of McCabe you will lose the badge. so 5ss for 3vp?

[zFiend]

If you do this, then what will you do for 'Dita? Who will almost instantly become one of the easier to kill masters in the game. Yes she can kill well and she has a high Df/Wp.....but she also has one of the lower Wd stats in the game for a master.

 

I would point you in the direction of Lynch and if those two are compared Perdita wins even without El Mayor. 

[Myyrä]

I would point you in the direction of Lynch and if those two are compared Perdita wins even without El Mayor.

As she should. Lynch has a free Henchman.

[Dirial]

I would point you in the direction of Lynch and if those two are compared Perdita wins even without El Mayor. 

 

Lynch gets a really powerful companion for nothing, though.

 

I find this thread to be interesting. I also predict that no consensus whatsoever will be achieved, even on the Mech Rider, and thus the practical worth for Justin will be negligible. Interesting exercise nonetheless.

[Myyrä]

You really don't want to touch By Your Side and disengaging strikes btw. RAW the disengaging strike doesn't have to be made against the model that is trying take the walk action. RAW you could even hit your own model with it and prevent the walk action.

[dgraz]

I would point you in the direction of Lynch and if those two are compared Perdita wins even without El Mayor. 

LOL

[Bengt]

Leveticus' Pariah upgrades should not let him hire anything with the Rare characteristic.

[LunarSol]

Quick aside: Many people in this community believe that the only way to determine if something is OP is for it to dominate a long string of tournaments. There are a few problems with that logic and I wanted to cover it here. 

1) The Malifaux community is not large enough for that logic to work out. There are only what ~12 "big" tournaments a year? The game is not being played often enough or extensively enough for anyone to gather enough data to be convincing one way or the other. 

2) With the games taking as long as they do tournaments only last 3-5 rounds. Let's say 64 people show up to a 5 round tournament. After the 5 rounds 2 people will be undefeated. Losing one round to a bad pair, a play mistake, bad cards, whatever, literally removes you from the conversation. 

3) Even if model x is overpowered not everyone owns model x or wants to play it. Some people will stick to their faction regardless of what is arguably better. 

 

I actually think a bigger issue is that without the static list system of other games, the Malifaux community hasn't found a good way to dissect the game competitively to tackle problems created by over the curve models.  There hasn't even been a good listing matchups for the top 4-top 8 from Adepticon.  What masters were used, how were the games decided, etc?  That kind of information is really needed to, not so much determine over powered models, but help the community adjust to them.  That doesn't mean they aren't over the curve, just that a large part of the issue may be a matter of adapting play to assume their presence.  Malifaux certainly doesn't need static crew builds, but I think the community needs a way to talk about the game competitively without them.

[solkan]

Each round, the sheets at Adepticon had a place to write down which faction and which leader you were playing.

It would probably only add a few minute to the day to add "Please write down your list."

[LunarSol]

Each round, the sheets at Adepticon had a place to write down which faction and which leader you were playing.

It would probably only add a few minute to the day to add "Please write down your list."

Is that information available anywhere? Even that kind of data can be a great discussion point particularly if the stray/scheme pool is also known.

[tomjoad]

The fact that no tournament reports have been written for Adepticon makes any real analysis pretty difficult. All most of us have is theory and local play groups, so if I my friend always beats me with Marcus, and I always beat another friend when he uses Sonnia, the only data that I even have access to says that Marcus>Shenlong>Sonnia. We need actual data to be able to make more substantive claims than that.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The problem with some of these suggestions is that even if you agree with the premise of something being too good, it can cause a cascade of unintended consequences. For example the perennial issue if the rotten belle. I may be biased, but even when they are used against me in numbers, especially after the pounce clarification, they do not feel over powered. They have no real melee, no real speed over any other model, and their slow will hardly ever land because its ca5. The fact that its an 8 is not the problem. I can personally state that they did some things near the end of the last beta I feel they shouldn't have, but the 8 isn't the problem with them in my opinion.

But just for a moment let's assume it is. Cuddling it back causes a ripple of unintended consequences in that by Cuddling the belle's 8 you make Seamus weaker as well because he needs to win repeated wp duels to stay alive if the opponent even moderately tries to kill him.

He is df 4 so he is almost always going to be hit when attacked. Also any attack that places conditions lands them very easily on him And yes impossible to wound helps, but its not a massive defense in that every attack is almost certainly going to land some dmg, and it adds up fast.

An attack stat of 6 is respectable, but you are only going to land that attack slightly more, on average, than 55% of the time, and it will take your better cards to do so. Also keep in mind that wp, on average, tends to be higher than df on the average model, so an attack stat of 6 against wp isn't quite as good as a 6 that targets df.

So by changing one aspect of a model you affect the performance of other models that were balanced on having access to the stats on their synergistic models. So it isn't as easy to make a change as so and so model is too good and needs to be fixed.

There are several masters and models in the game I also think are too good, but at the moment there are very few that I would even think of advocating a change for. And I don't think there is enough data yet to support a change.

I think leveticus is potentially an issue, one which I'd make the change of his pariah upgrades allow the hiring of any undead or construct as a mercenary, and or actually giving waifs a cost. There are several masters that have to hire or summon specific models, and use them in particular ways to stay alive, so I've never understood why waifs were a tax for Levi, but other models weren't a tax for their masters.

The other model is the mechanical rider, for obvious reasons.

But in both instances I don't think there is enough data yet, but at least in my estimation Levi is getting close. But even he isn't so far outside the bounds that I think there NEEDS to be an errata as of yet.

Its an interesting discussion, however.

[Icemyn]

@Fetid: I do think the 8 is the problem, here is why. When a belle currently casts lure it's not worth fighting over if you are losing initially. Let's say you lure my master who is wp 7 and you flip a 5 I flip a 3. Now I can cheat to beat your total but it would cost me a reasonable card and still would very likely lose. Also you could just let me win and do it again basically draining me of resources for a fight later. Or god forbid cheat to the trigger and win where I also discard a card. I don't mind them going to even ca7 where they aren't always winning the initial duel. I have problems with models that are so ubiquitous in their faction that not taking them would be a mistake. I'm sorry that Seamus gets weaker if belles do, but there are plenty of models in ressurs that fight against wp. Maybe they should see some more play instead of being driven out by the better belle.

There will likely never be enough hard data to support any change. So I realize I'm only arguing my opinion.

 

Edit: FWIW I've always felt Lure should move a model the difference in the final duel total up to its walk. That way it keeps the suited ca8 and will still win the vast majority of duels for seamus without being as oppressive. It's also thematic, the more "alluring" a model is the farther it compels the enemy to move.

[CapnBloodbeard]

I had a thread about McCabe / Luna only a few days ago - http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/107559-mccabe-luna-guaranteed-to-deliver-a-message/

Some good discussion on there.

 

As for the Austringer - I don't have one yet, though the fact that everybody thinks it's a must have could lend weight to the above-the-curve argument.  At least the damage profile is reasonably low.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The problem with that argument is that it gets applied across all sorts of models. There are many ubiquitous models across all factions, and unless you are arguing for them, and for the ubiquitous upgrades, and unless you are arguing for all of them to be cuddled as well, your argument that toning something down so that they won't be so ubiquitous, and will open up other models isn't a very strong argument.

Additionally Cuddling something that doesn't need Cuddling as a side effect is as bad as something being overpowered, because at that point all you are doing is shifting the goal posts to something you personally like better, not what is necessary for the game.

I have gigantic issues with Jakob, Leveticus, Colette, and Collodi. I have massive issues with the Mechanical rider, and with imbued energies. I have personal issue with Francisco. Has anyone really seen how utterly ridiculous the TT brother is in actually winning games for his point cost? I feel the Gremlin faction as a whole is most likely, in the long run, going to cause a TON of unforeseen problems, as during the beta testing, anything that didn't have a model didn't have anywhere close to the amount of testing that a model that did have a model did, at least from the publicly available models. The issue is that tournament reports aren't bearing out requiring a change, and THAT above everything else is the data I feel that needs to be what drives necessary errata.

The game cannot survive constant nonstop errata, or even common errata, at least in the format it currently enjoys with physically printed cards. If the cards were digital and able to be updated at a click and those were the ones that were solely and always used, then that would allow for more common errata. But when players buy a card they need to know what it does and not think it works one way and then run into someone and see their cards are different. We saw where that lead in 1.0 and they didn't even errata all that much.

Additionally in a miniatures game we all know that we are never going to balance everything perfectly, and that some things will always be above and below the curve. Wielding the errata club because we don't like something, or just hitting things that are above the curve but are not breaking the game is just moving the goal posts to what you prefer. For example I loath Jakob's design quite a bit. Yes he is a weaker master in the durability department, but not terribly so because he doesn't have to be up in the action all that often, and he has a good defensive trigger, and is exceptionally deadly. He will die more often then say Perdita, but I rarely see masters die. He is one of THE deadliest masters in the game, being able to fire a gun with as much damage as Seamus' gun 3 times a turn, and having massive card draw and manipulation, and all the other deadly tricks he can do. Playing him he never felt less than a full fledged master to me, and yet he gets a free henchman that comes close to almost master level power. I think is he WAY over powered, and add to that having one of the most powerful, if not THE most powerful 7 SS minion in the game with the Illuminated. However that said I would argue vociferously against Cuddling him at this time. He isn't tearing up the tourney scene, he isn't winning all the time, and he isn't crowding out the other NB masters at events where the goal is to win. The data doesn't support his being broken at this time, which means that in Cuddling him all we would be doing is shifting who is above the curve, we wouldn't be evening it out because at the present it is very even, and far tighter than 1.0 ever got.

And I guess at the end of the day that's my perspective. Errata should be used only on things that actually break that game, and can be documented to have done so. Being a common take in a list, being above the curve, being exceptional value for cost, those things don't necessarily break the game, and if they aren't then they shouldn't be errata'd.

[Ausplosions]

Thank you Fetid. 

 

 

Very well said and I agree 100%.

 

I think the bigger worry is that due to open testing, the Malifaux community now seems to feel it is entitled to change anything at any time. 

[Cats Laughing]

 

Belles- Do I really need to say why? The only counter argument I see is that it's the only thing they do, which just isn't a very good one. Even without Lure they are arguably as good as other 5ss models in the game. Ca8 is just far too high for a minion.

 

Metal Gamin- Magnetism needs it's Ca reduced to like 5 or 6. Minions should not have 8s anywhere near their stat lines. 

 

Every time I read something like this I look at those beautiful if annoying to assemble Oiran models and cry a little stream of tears.

 

I get what you're trying to get at, but it does seem that 8 by itself is nothing to be worried about.

[solkan]

Is that information available anywhere? Even that kind of data can be a great discussion point particularly if the stray/scheme pool is also known.

 

I don't know.  Probably the thing to do would be to contact Mr. Overton (http://wyrd-games.net/community/user/16581-shadowopal/ shadowopal) and see what's going on with the forms.  By way of disclaimer, I played in the Sunday story encounter, and I was one of the bad people who produced maybe illegible scrawling on their tournament score sheets (other than the numbers).  Whether those sheets go into a vault or go into a recycling bin, I don't know. 

 

I'm pretty sure there's already an entry on the Achievement League for posting battle reports, you could suggest adding entries for doing that multiple times.  That could get more player-written (and thus less work for the staff) information out there.

[Dirial]

Thanks, Fetid. Great post.

[Math Mathonwy]

I'm always saddened when threads like these come up and many posters' primary concern and aim seems to be to try and shut the conversation down. I think that it is a very important conversation to be had and even if the consensus is that no change should be implemented it is still a worthy discussion.

 

As she should. Lynch has a free Henchman.

I might be wrong, but I read ZFiend's point as being that Lynch doesn't die trivially even though he is far squishier than Perdita. I mean, sure, if you let a Reactivating Langston Nimble next to him to Flurry while blocking Squeeling away, he is going to die. But since he is a ranged Master, as is Perdita, he is quite survivable if played with a modicum of care.

As for the Mech Rider, I think that her problem is mainly the Metal Gamin. HtK coming at 2 Wounds is huge and the little buggers are simply really good. One possible fix would be for the Summoned model to come at 1Wd - this wouldn't affect her other Summons much but Metal Gamin would be affected rather dramatically. If that seems like too much, then maybe a Trigger (at Rams or at four Tomes for example) to heal the Summoned model for one wound.

As for Seamus needing the Ca8 Belles - I think that's hogwash. At Ca6 they would still be quite powerful enough, especially considering that they are hardly the only Wp attack that Seamus has access to. I do think that Fetid's general point of ripple effects is an important consideration but I don't see it coming into play in this particular case.

 

I think the bigger worry is that due to open testing, the Malifaux community now seems to feel it is entitled to change anything at any time.

Mostly because no other minis game community ever suggests tweaks to models

Yeah, must be the open beta and us being a special snow flake!

[zFiend]

I might be wrong, but I read ZFiend's point as being that Lynch doesn't die trivially even though he is far squishier than Perdita. I mean, sure, if you let a Reactivating Langston Nimble next to him to Flurry while blocking Squeeling away, he is going to die. But since he is a ranged Master, as is Perdita, he is quite survivable if played with a modicum of care.

 

Yeah, he is far worse to Perdita even without El Mayor but still he can played and kept alive with care. If you can't keep a df7 wp7 model alive without upping her to an untouchable 9/9 well then I don't know what you can keep alive. They are both quite similiar, ranged masters and damage dealers but the other needs to be played with care and thought while the other one just goes and kills everyone and never dies. As well as Perdita doing her thing from a greater distance than Lynch.

 

I've kept df6 Torakages alive for a long time. And they still lose to Perdita.