Severe Terrain

[scarlett fever]

Just moved cities (and therefore playgroups) and came across a difference in playing movement through Severe Terrain.

It's not important how its played (and in fact it took 2 games before I noticed we were playing it differently) but I'd be curious to know how other groups play it.

 

I've always played that whilst any part of the base of your model is within Severe terrain your movement cost is doubled.

My opponent played that once you enter Severe terrain your movement cost is doubled, however as soon as your base contacts open terrain you move full again.

 

Be curious to know how other groups play and if there is any consensus.

[Tapdancer]

Discussion on twitter straightened it out. Been doing it wrong

[Myyrä]

Discussion on twitter straightened it out. Been doing it wrong

I don't believe you, nothing useful happens on twitter.

[TimW]

We've always played that movement penalties apply while any part of the base is in contact with severe terrain.

 

As someone else said earlier in the thread, benefits such as cover apply when your base is partly within relevant terrain, so it seems pretty natural to apply the same logic to penalties.

 

My $0.02 

 

Tim

[paradoxstorm]

Since I've basically made my arguments the only slightly new thing I have is for Myyra's picture.  

 

For me going from A to B, moving out of severe terrain would not halve the movement of the model.  Going from B to A, into severe terrain, would halve the movement of the model.

 

I'd like an official ruling since, while I disagree with the other interpretation, I can understand where it is coming from.  And whichever interpretation is correct, it is clear to me that there is some ambiguity in the rules.

[asrian]

I play that any part of the model touching severe terrain = doubled movement. Main reason, as has been stated, is the same for the cover ability. Also, as there is no "front" of the model, as the models can turn on the spot, and are able to see in all directions for movement, LoS purposes, then all points on the circle base are potential "fronts", those outside of any terrain, and those still within terrain, so movement is still doubled until all "fronts" have left the terrain.

[scarlett fever]

I think I still prefer the first option for clarity. The second one gets too tricky for me when it comes to complex terrain profiles and discussions of whether you're moving through or out of terrain, as well as the ability to skirt around terrain once in by angling your move a few degrees off from it.

But I prefer very clear rules.

[Vorschlag]

As much as I disagree it seems the census is against my interpretation, so either our swamp board will need some changes or we will need to get a tape measure with millimeters.

[Joel]

As much as I disagree it seems the census is against my interpretation, so either our swamp board will need some changes or we will need to get a tape measure with millimeters.

Or you start using models with incorporeal, flight or unimpeded on that board

[Vorschlag]

I do, but then if I do it too often (It's my main board) it feels unfair against my opponents who don't have these facilities

[paradoxstorm]

"models do not have a front" = true, but they do have a direction of movement.  That direction is easy to determine and use as part of your movement calculations.

 

I find the "leading edge" interpretation much easier to understand than the "full base" interpretation.   If a model with 6" walk is crossing a river 2" wide it gets a total movement of 4".  

 

Accounting for base size means that a model on a 30mm base gets 2.8" total movement and successfully crosses the river in a single walk.  On the other hand a model on a 40mm base can't make it on the first walk requiring a total of 5.6" inches of movement to cross the river.  A model on a 50mm base needs or is it 6" of movement to fully cross the river.  (GRRRRR, I have redone the math twice on this example and still can't figure out what the right answer is.  This is simpler?)

 

As much as I disagree it seems the census is against my interpretation, so either our swamp board will need some changes or we will need to get a tape measure with millimeters.

 

What matters is not player consensus, what matters is what the rules actually say/require.  There is ample precedent in the real world of bright and reasonable people misunderstanding rules (i.e., the law).   That's why I keep closing with a request for an official ruling.   While I clearly have a preferred interpretation I will play by the other interpretation if that is what the rules intend.  But I find the ambiguity a bit annoying.   

[Myyrä]

"models do not have a front" = true, but they do have a direction of movement.  That direction is easy to determine and use as part of your movement calculations.

 

I find the "leading edge" interpretation much easier to understand than the "full base" interpretation.   If a model with 6" walk is crossing a river 2" wide it gets a total movement of 4".

In my opinion, an explanation isn't a very good one if you have invent new terms that don't exist within the context. It's hard to buy that it is meant to be played in a way that can't even be described with the words that have been used to write the rules.

 

Accounting for base size means that a model on a 30mm base gets 2.8" total movement and successfully crosses the river in a single walk.  On the other hand a model on a 40mm base can't make it on the first walk requiring a total of 5.6" inches of movement to cross the river.  A model on a 50mm base needs or is it 6" of movement to fully cross the river.  (GRRRRR, I have redone the math twice on this example and still can't figure out what the right answer is.  This is simpler?)

You are terrible at math. If a model has Wk 6 and starts it's movement in base contact with a 2" wide river and wants to cross it using the shortest route possible, it gets to move 3" with its first walk action, no matter how wide it's base is, because even a model with 30mm base needs to move about 3 1/5" to clear the river completely. (3 3/5" and 4" for 40mm and 50mm bases respectively, if you were wondering.)

 

What matters is not player consensus, what matters is what the rules actually say/require.  There is ample precedent in the real world of bright and reasonable people misunderstanding rules (i.e., the law).   That's why I keep closing with a request for an official ruling.   While I clearly have a preferred interpretation I will play by the other interpretation if that is what the rules intend.  But I find the ambiguity a bit annoying.

The consensus should be based on the rules of the game, because otherwise it isn't Malifaux we are playing but something else entirely.

[Adran]

Ho do you play Hazadous Terrain?

I assume that if you activate and any part of the model is in Hazadous terrain, you will take the damage flip. There is no leading edge, as you're not moving. but as long as part of the model is in Hazadous terrain, then the model counts as beign in Hazadous Terrain.

[decker_cky]

I find the "leading edge" interpretation much easier to understand than the "full base" interpretation.   If a model with 6" walk is crossing a river 2" wide it gets a total movement of 4".  

 

 

Your interpretation makes for nice math, but is a completely abstract concept. Doubled movement while the model is touching the terrain is a far more straightforward concept. 

 

What would you do if a model moved half of it's base length into terrain, then moved along the severe terrain (so moving, leading edge split between severe and non severe for the entire movement)? Does that change if he's 1mm further in? Or 1mm further out?

[paradoxstorm]

If you are traveling "through" the terrain you are hit with a 

 

In my opinion, an explanation isn't a very good one if you have invent new terms that don't exist within the context. It's hard to buy that it is meant to be played in a way that can't even be described with the words that have been used to write the rules.
 
You are terrible at math. If a model has Wk 6 and starts it's movement in base contact with a 2" wide river and wants to cross it using the shortest route possible, it gets to move 3" with its first walk action, no matter how wide it's base is, because even a model with 30mm base needs to move about 3 1/5" to clear the river completely. (3 3/5" and 4" for 40mm and 50mm bases respectively, if you were wondering.)
 
The consensus should be based on the rules of the game, because otherwise it isn't Malifaux we are playing but something else entirely.

 

I don't think I invented any new terms, the direction the model is traveling is the direction it is traveling.  Because there is no "front" of the model and we don't have interactive diagrams, referring to the "leading edge" of the model simply provides clarity about travel directing in the context of the example.

 

I am quite good at math.  At least I use it quite successfully in my day job.  The fact that you have to convert mm base sizes to inches to compute travel distance is problematic and creates an added layer of difficulty.  

 

Yes, the consensus should be based on the rules of the game, but in this case the rules are unclear and subject to multiple interpretations--as demonstrated by this discussion.  

 

If the movement penalty begins the moment the model enters severe terrain why doesn't normal movement return the moment the model enters normal terrain?  Not only is this consistent with defining when movement penalty starts, but it is grammatically correct because once the model is leaving the severe terrain it is no longer moving through the terrain.

 

If Wyrd wishes to officially rule that any portion of the model touching the terrain is "through" the terrain I will shake my head at their grammar but I will accept the ruling.  Until then I will have to negotiate individually with opponents to see how they interpret the rule because it is ambiguous.

[paradoxstorm]

Your interpretation makes for nice math, but is a completely abstract concept. Doubled movement while the model is touching the terrain is a far more straightforward concept. 

 

What would you do if a model moved half of it's base length into terrain, then moved along the severe terrain (so moving, leading edge split between severe and non severe for the entire movement)? Does that change if he's 1mm further in? Or 1mm further out?

 

In an example such as yours it does make sense...if you are walking the length of the severe terrain, even with most of your self outside the terrain, you are traveling through the terrain.  

 

I am focused on the very specific case where the model is leaving the severe terrain and is no longer traveling through it.  

[Clement]

In an example such as yours it does make sense...if you are walking the length of the severe terrain, even with most of your self outside the terrain, you are traveling through the terrain.  

 

I am focused on the very specific case where the model is leaving the severe terrain and is no longer traveling through it.

Lets tweak the example then. Instead of heading parallel to the edge of the terrain, the model is now headed *slightly* out, like 5 or 10 degrees. Now does it suffer the cost of difficult terrain?

I get that your interpretation makes the math simpler, and it does. But the scenarios it can create get sticky without a lot of extra definition.

[scarlett fever]

Lets tweak the example then. Instead of heading parallel to the edge of the terrain, the model is now headed *slightly* out, like 5 or 10 degrees. Now does it suffer the cost of difficult terrain?

I get that your interpretation makes the math simpler, and it does. But the scenarios it can create get sticky without a lot of extra definition.

 

Changing from option 1 to option 2 halfway through a game this is what I found. I found it difficult to know whether I was moving 'through' severe terrain or out of severe terrain whilst on the board as most of the severe terrain had complex profile edges, it seemed like it required in-game negotiation to define. But this was just my first try, perhaps it becomes more logical over time.

 

As for converting millimetres to inches to find out how far you move I don't bother. I lay down my tape measure, move my model until it is no longer in severe and read this measurement and double it, if I have movement left I continue moving.

[Kadeton]

The fact that you have to convert mm base sizes to inches to compute travel distance is problematic and creates an added layer of difficulty.

You don't have to. This game is played with miniatures in physical space (or a virtual representation of the same), not with complex calculations and theory. You don't need to calculate the movement required for different base sizes to move through a piece of terrain - just do it in different steps (move into contact, move within the terrain, then move away). The only calculations involved are doubling and subtraction.

[Bengt]

If the movement penalty begins the moment the model enters severe terrain why doesn't normal movement return the moment the model enters normal terrain?  Not only is this consistent with defining when movement penalty starts, but it is grammatically correct because once the model is leaving the severe terrain it is no longer moving through the terrain.

Because you can not "enter" normal terrain. Normal terrain is not a thing. There are basic rules for movement, i.e. you can move a distance equal to your Wk/Cg value. While you are touching terrain with the Severe trait those rules are modified. P 42 "Areas of terrain can effect movement which occurs within the terrain's base.", types of terrain you could potentially be within are listed on p 60-61, normal or open or whatever you want to call it is not a type of terrain.

[scarlett fever]

Because you can not "enter" normal terrain. Normal terrain is not a thing. There are basic rules for movement, i.e. you can move a distance equal to your Wk/Cg value. While you are touching terrain with the Severe trait those rules are modified. P 42 "Areas of terrain can effect movement which occurs within the terrain's base.", types of terrain you could potentially be within are listed on p 60-61, normal or open or whatever you want to call it is not a type of terrain.

 

Defaulting to the term 'within' rather than 'through' certainly makes the intention clearer in my mind.

[egoon]

We've always played that movement is doubled as long as any part is within the terrain. It's simpler because it leaves no room for edge-cases. And it makes sense to be affected by the terrain while within the terrain.

[paradoxstorm]

Because you can not "enter" normal terrain. Normal terrain is not a thing. There are basic rules for movement, i.e. you can move a distance equal to your Wk/Cg value. While you are touching terrain with the Severe trait those rules are modified. P 42 "Areas of terrain can effect movement which occurs within the terrain's base.", types of terrain you could potentially be within are listed on p 60-61, normal or open or whatever you want to call it is not a type of terrain.

 

Of course normal terrain is a thing. If you are walking on a grassy surface that in no way impedes or damages you, you are walking on normal terrain.

 

However, I suppose it would be more accurate to refer to it as "normal unmodified play surface" or, perhaps, "unmodified play surface."

 

So, when the model enters the unmodified play surface it is no longer traveling through, or within, severe terrain.  Within is not the same a touching.  Through is not the same as touching.

 

Again, the fundamental problem is that there is not an official ruling.  While the term "leading edge" of the base is never used in the rule book, that is clearly what is meant by the model first entering severe terrain.  So why would the same rule not apply when the model first enters normal unmodified play surface?

[Fetid Strumpet]

No, there doesn't need to be an "official" ruling.

[Math Mathonwy]

Again, the fundamental problem is that there is not an official ruling.  While the term "leading edge" of the base is never used in the rule book, that is clearly what is meant by the model first entering severe terrain.  So why would the same rule not apply when the model first enters normal unmodified play surface?

The model enters the terrain when a part of its base gets inside the terrain. The model leaves the terrain when none of its base is inside the terrain. Seems perfectly straightforward, consistent and easy.

[Fetid Strumpet]

This.