J_D Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Just something I wanted to get peoples thoughts and feelings on: should Sportsmanship be a scorable criteria at tournaments, and if so how should it be judged? Coming from playing Warhammer, I have always incorporated Sports scores into tournaments. However since starting Malifaux, I have noticed no tournaments really use it. Is that because it's not really required, or just because nobody has come up with a good way to do it? Also, if you are all for Sports scores then how do you think they should be judged? Should it be the ambiguous 0-5 score, which can depend on how well the game went for the player and not actually how much of a good person their opponent was, OR should be it a list of set criteria that you can score points for ie. turning up with all your gear, introducing yourself, shaking hands after a game etc (which is my preferred method). Would love to hear thoughts from everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seregon Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 I've personally run it as a completely separate thing where players vote on their favourite player(s) of the day and the winner gets a prize. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausplosions Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 I've personally run it as a completely separate thing where players vote on their favourite player(s) of the day and the winner gets a prize. This seems the best way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kogan Style Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 The only tournament I went to that included sportsmanship had people scoring their favourite opponent, which counted as part of the overall tournamnent score. Predictably the people at the top end voted only for those at the bottom (even though the best games were top vs top) Scoring sportsmanship is so tricky, but Sergeon's way seems a good way to implement it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 It's done from time to time as a separate prize in the UK scene. It's never included in overall standings. This is my preferred mechanism. Sports judging by an opponents is riddled with conflict of interest issues. I'd rather players weren't given a perverse incentive to mark each other down. I'm also not sure what sports scores actually achieve. I've always felt they were a bit of a cop out so TO's didn't have to tackle problem behaviour head on. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonahmaul Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 I also think sportsmanship is very hard to score. If you end up playing a friend do they both end up with top scores? Does losing effect how well a person would score the sportsmanship of their opponent? Could a disagreement over one part of the game negatively (or positively) effect the way that it's scored? There's so many different factors and it's so subjective that I think it would be very hard to just have a score every game and I think that having it count towards the final tournament standings would be a bad idea as it should be based on playing alone. Having said that I think sportsmanship is a massively important (probably the most important) part of tournaments and games should always be played in a friendly spirit regardless of it's for a tournament. My tournament experience is so far limited to a single tournament but my experience of that, and what I've read elsewhere, seems that Malifaux is mostly played in a friendly manner. I do think a separate award as Seregon suggests is a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderwiggin Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 I'm not saying to be the meanest person you can by any stretch of the words, but introducing soft scores (sportsmanship or painting) when you're trying to run a skill-determining-winner tournament is the easiest way to get the "tourney crowd" to go to the next store. Introduce a league or tournament as laid-back, with custom rules/scenarios, and I'm just as sure plenty of people will line up to play also. The tournament tone should be set and enforced by the TO from the beginning so that everyone joining for the properly advertized reasons can have a good time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katadder Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 seperate prize is ok but should never go into the main tourney score as people say the top guys mark everyone down 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enderwiggin Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Completely forgot to mention, but Seregon had a great option for those wanting to influence the tourney scene without being overbearing. Additionally, I've been to some tournaments (only the larger ones work really), where your winning/losing places you in prize tier brackets that then get randomly assigned prizes. This leads to a more relaxed atmosphere for all but first place guys and makes for a very nice semi-casual weekend tournament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 We don't have sportsman ship specific awards at events I run. But I do have a sportsmanship survey on the score sheet for each round. It consists of 3 questions Would I play my opponent again? Did my opponent Follow the will wheton rule? Did I have fun? Each have space for comments should a player be inclined. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wrabbit37 Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 We don't have sportsman ship specific awards at events I run. But I do have a sportsmanship survey on the score sheet for each round. It consists of 3 questions Would I play my opponent again? Did my opponent Follow the will wheton rule? Did I have fun? Each have space for comments should a player be inclined. What do you do with this information after you collect it? Do you ever act on it? What could you foresee yourself using it for? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 I'd be fine penalizing poor sportsmanship (check the box if the opponent was a jerk, basically) rather than working towards a gradation of good sportsmanship points, since the more subjectivity there is, the more room for problems, and it's pretty obvious if someone is constantly hating on everyone that they're either a misanthrope or gaming the system. Most players are pretty nice- it's the bad ones that are the problem cases, and I don't really feel that being exceptionally nice is that different than being nice if the model is to have a separate reward. If someone gets the shame mention of, IDK, having everyone tick the "was a jerk" box or loses a place because of it (if it's included in your standing), maybe they'd rethink how they interact with people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagisman Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 I really like how some of the tourneys have been run in my area. Each player gets a slip for a raffle and write down the name of the opponent they liked. Then they put it in for a prize they think the person would like. It's not guaranteed but I like it better than putting a number down. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cats Laughing Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 A way that we've been doing prizes locally is that you get a raffle ticket per game played and another for winning a game. The ticket for playing was instituted after our first method was "a ticket per vp scored" and one unfortunate soul managed to score 0 vp across her 3 games... So winning games gets you a better shot at winning something in the raffle draw, but just showing up gives you a chance at getting something. Overall winner still has the "prize" of pride in winning, but we feel this raffle method leads to a more fun and relaxed atmosphere where everyone has a chance at going home with a prize. Maybe we should implement a 'best opponent' ticket, where each player gets a ticket they can assign to the person they had the most fun against (or whomever they want). Maybe we'll get players putting their own name on the ticket, but I think it'll mostly go towards the players who are the most fun. Wow, Ninja'd... Oddly enough, the last time we had a tourney, I had the honor of winning overall and going home with my only prize being pride in my victory, while a brand new player was the lucky guy going home with the grand prize. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 I'd be fine penalizing poor sportsmanship (check the box if the opponent was a jerk, basically)I have played hundreds of tournament games and I don't think I would have ever ticked that box. I mean, there have been people who I wouldn't seek out to play with in a casual environment but no one has been truly unpleasant.I did once win a best sportsmanship award in a hundred-player tournament and it is one of my most cherished tournament wins, though.A way that we've been doing prizes locally is that you get a raffle ticket per game played and another for winning a game.That's not a bad system! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Justin Posted February 12, 2015 Popular Post Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 I'm of the opinion soft scores don't belong in tournaments. Not because the things being judged aren't important, but because they're too important. If I'm running a tournament I expect you to have models, I expect them to be painted, and I expect you to not be a jerk. Don't follow through on that and you just can't play. For painting I think it's fine not to require that depending on your local scene (you may have a lot of beginners) but I still wouldn't score it. If you want to give prizes for sportsmanship or painting they should be separate from the tournament itself. My opinion. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 What do you do with this information after you collect it? Do you ever act on it? What could you foresee yourself using it for? Mainly I use the info too see if someone is a problem or is having a problem. I have thankfully not had a situation where I had to act on something. i did have one instance were after the game I spoke with a player about what they had written and then spoke with the other player again this was during a break and away from the group. The main reason I do it is as a node to sportsmanship and to make sure players have a voice if there was a non positive experience and they don't feel comfortable coming to me directly about it. I walk my events and obscure each player as matter of course keeps me from falling asleep, so I get a gauge of player demeanor. As far as keeping don't really look at it post event if positive remarks were on there which with one small exception they have been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbobovalsocks Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 I don't like it. I wouldn't use sportsmanship scoring in a tournament I was running, I haven't seen any tournaments locally where they're used and it might even put me off going if I saw a tournament had sportsmanship scoring. It really makes me feel uncomfortable - the idea of rating people quantitatively! Behaving yourself properly, not cheating and not being a dick are just part of the parcel. If someone is acting up it's the job of the ref or TO to step in and have a word. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J_D Posted February 12, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Thanks for all the feedback and opinions guys, has helped a lot. I have always preferred the "vote for your best opponent of the day" and then they win the Sports prize (I know I said differently to start, but that was to do with having to score), which seems to be the favourite way of going, instead of incorporating an actual score in to things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 Vote for best opponent is my preferred. I don't think it needs to be included in tournament standings: the tournament scene always have superb sports shop on the whole...! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clousseau Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 In my opinion GG has got it right and the tournament scores purely on the game performance of the players. Painting is an important part of the game and I always try to have at least 1 painting award, usually voted for by the players. And not just best crew, but best single minion, marker or whatever. I never include a sporting award as I feel its to open to how games went and all the other reasons given above. Having said that I've won this type of award a couple of times, but I'm not sure I'm any more sporting than the next player! As for prizes outside of the top 3, well I always raffle them off in a way that avoids anyone getting more than one prize during the day (though people can win multiple awards such as a best in faction certificate). I've also had a specific raffle draw purely for those bringing terrain (1 ticket per table brought). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagisman Posted February 12, 2015 Report Share Posted February 12, 2015 When I was at my at my last tourney I got mid-table. The best thing that happened was when I won in one of the raffles and my third opponent said that he had placed it in there for me. I can become pretty competitive sometimes and it's good to hear that my competiveness doesn't end up being a negative play experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonahmaul Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 I definitely like the separate prize for sportsmanship option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrrfranky Posted February 13, 2015 Report Share Posted February 13, 2015 I certainly wouldn't want soft scores to be part of the final tournament standings, and would prefer there not to be a sportsmanship award at all. I think it's something that everyone should be aiming for regardless, and you shouldn't need to reward someone in particular. If it's an issue, I'd rather have a thumbs up/thumbs down system, where if you give someone a thumbs down you need to explain why so the TO can be aware of a potential problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ampers&nd Posted February 14, 2015 Report Share Posted February 14, 2015 The only times I've encountered genuinely hostile opponents or outright cheaters across the table has been in tournaments without sportsmanship soft scoring (WM/H having the worst record) but I've ran tournaments using lots of methods, a reward for the player with the most votes separate from rankings seems to work best, but I've yet to see any format completely without flaws. I do like the raffle idea though, if each player had custom slips they couldn't vote for themselves and the more sporting votes they got the more chances. Good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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