House Rules for Summoning in low-SS games?

[Rob Lo]

If 50 is balanced and 35 is "not balanced", then 15 more points away must be nearly completely imbalanced and would require something even more strict.

 

I don't know Outcasts much, but how much are rats? 2pts each. At 20pt games, would 1 rat a turn be balanced? perhaps 1 in turn 1 and 2 more in turn 2? I'd make my summoning allowance be 2 pts, maybe 3 but I doubt it, per turn. So as a resser I could get a crooligan or dog in turn 2, or a nice 6 pt model turn 3. 

 

If you say 2 summonable models per game, Hamelin with 2 rats is not gonna be happy with Nico with 2 hanged. Doesn't matter if it happens turn 1, turn 3, or turn 5. So limiting turns alone won't be enough. Crew box limits may work, but sounds like an awfully artificial way that just limits one of the things that some summoners have going for them, variability to summon for the challenge at hand. Ramos won't mind it much, but Nico or Dreamer would.

 

No matter what system you use, or what point game you play, the only thing that is comparable between factions and masters that summon is the SS cost of the models they can summon. If I tell you I had a game where master X summoned 5SSs and master Y summoned 6SSs, you can guess decently well if it was balanced. Against non summoners it's a harder call, but if you're going to allow summoning at all, some # has to be the sweet spot (perhaps the least sour spot).

[rythos42]

If we imagine a 50ss game where your opponent summoned 75ss of stuff, you lose that game because you didn't play the game properly, not because it's unbalanced. In a 35ss game if your opponent summoned 75ss of stuff, it's because she has the same number of resources (hand size, AP, soulstones) as in the 50ss but is unbalanced because the outcome a much higher ratio than the starting number.

 

I don't like a hard cap on summoning limits, because I think that any hard cap we think of won't account for that "bad play". There's no hard cap at 50, I don't think there should be at 35. I just want a system whereby if I screw up and my opponent summons everything, they can only summon 53ss of models, instead of 75ss!

 

I'm interested more in methods of reducing the available resources for summoning down to 70% (35/50) of normal (so a 30% reduction). The card discard means you have 1 fewer card to play with - this reduces card resources by 16%. Needing +1AP to summon reduces AP resources by 50%. Making the summoned model Paralyzed also reduces resources by 50%.

 

 

What if you had to discard cards equal to 4-{current turn number} to use a summon action? You could summon first turn, but it would be expensive. Turn 2 you could get 2 things out and turn 3 you're paying a minor price. Turns 4 and 5 and beyond, there's no penalty, but the summoned models also have fewer AP to be used over the game. It would affect all summoners and would limit the amount of models coming into the table by a good amount, without creating a hard limit. You can also get around it in game if you have a card draw ability (and I like rules that can be modified by good crew selection). 

 

 

Another idea I kind of like (similar to the "limit by Crew boxes", which I also liked, but which has some troubles) is limiting the highest soulstone cost of a model you can summon. Summoning Hanged is high-cost/high-reward, but summoning a few Guild Autopsy isn't going to break anything. I think you could set the limit at 7-8ss per model and it could have a similar effect as CrewBoxes, but without overly hurting Nico/Dreamer. It doesn't slow Ramos at all still though.

[Hateful Darkblack]

I'm leaning more and more toward "No Summoning on Turn One or Two."

 

This trips up a few models that like to summon a helper thing early (Zoraida summoning a Voodoo Doll, Levy summoning a Waif), but mostly it just means that you won't have endless waves of summons, and the amount of extra AP you get from a summon is minimized.

 

Plus it's simple.

[rythos42]

Simple is good. It's a decent rule, would be nice to see how it plays out on the table.

[Bengt]

I'm leaning more and more toward "No Summoning on Turn One or Two."

 

This trips up a few models that like to summon a helper thing early (Zoraida summoning a Voodoo Doll, Levy summoning a Waif), but mostly it just means that you won't have endless waves of summons, and the amount of extra AP you get from a summon is minimized.

 

Plus it's simple.

Well you could exempt some specific models. A Waif feels much more like a marker than actual model for instance. Are Doves/Seishin that are mostly one use a problem?

[Math Mathonwy]

You can buy those helper models in order to have enough for the first two turns. The one exceptions are Waifs and Seishin.

As for Waifs, I really don't see a problem since Levy is so incredibly powerful in small games already that hindering him isn't really all that bad.

But Seishin are sorta more difficult.

Still, I think that that rule will lead to better games than outright banning all Summoning, so there is that.

[SpectreEliteGaming]

You already suggested two house rules neither of which I agree with.Enforcing Henchmen into small games would make Starter boxes unplayable.Enforcing both to use Summoners if one wants to suggests that the different Summoners are equal in small games.Finally, I think that declaring it mission impossible is silly (even if you hadn't suggested two house rule solutions already) - the world is our oyster - of course it is possible to design rules that make Summoning balanced. It might be too convoluted and result, in effect, a new game, but just deciding arbitrarily that it is so without trying is silly, IMO.So, my suggestions:No summoning for the first two turns in under 40SS games.Summons are way more powerful early in the game since then you get the full AP amount from the summoned models, the no-Interact prohibition is less important and you likely have more resources to put into Summoning (as opposed to using the High Cards for killing enemy models or saving your own).Also, no Summoning from the death of enemy models.This is there to limit Levy, Sonnia and McMourning mostly. The switch of an enemy model into a friendly model is super powerful in low SS games and all of those Masters can work just fine without that ability (and, in the case of McM and Levy, are really, really competitive in small games, actually).

I counter your disagreement by disagreeing completely with your points, as it were. I would absolutely refuse to bother playing with a janky set of houserules, especially if they treated different masters differently. If we play short games its usually a big enforcer brawl or hardcore. I am not particularly fond of any suggestions. I'd play the game as it is with the idea that summoners are more powerful in mind.

Knowing that summoners are more powerful, I would always take a summoner or a summoning henchman. That's why I suggested "both or neither" ... but honestly I've never played anyone who really cared that much. I am interested to hear playtests just in case someone does find a really good idea

[scarlett fever]

Agree with Darkblack, no early turn summons sounds worth trying.

Maybe it could it be slightly granular with no summons on turn one below 40SS, no summons turn two below 35SS, or some such?

 

As for "janky houserules", I'd like to think every rule in every game started as a "janky houserule"

I don't imagine the goal here is to produce some uber competitive ruleset, that's why we have 50SS games, just to level the playing field a little.

When we introduce new people to the game it would be nice if they can play their first few games without feeling disheartened that they get destroyed every time someone plays a summoner.

[Omenbringer]

I dont see any "house rules" being able to limit summoners with out completely neutering them.

[Math Mathonwy]

I counter your disagreement by disagreeing completely with your points, as it were. I would absolutely refuse to bother playing with a janky set of houserules, especially if they treated different masters differently. If we play short games its usually a big enforcer brawl or hardcore. I am not particularly fond of any suggestions. I'd play the game as it is with the idea that summoners are more powerful in mind.

Categorically refusing to use house rules even if they make for a better experience is silly. Furthermore, if you're looking for a challenge and a good game as opposed to winning at all costs, I think that going for the best option every time is super boring.

I'm now looking forward to someone linking to that one Sirlin article and not taking into account that miniature gaming hobby consists of much more than just the actual game and includes things like models and painting and background and whatever else.

[The Godlyness]

Godlyness, any suggestions for house rules?

 

No sadly.

 

it is entirely strategy and scheme dependent.

 

In Reckoning people might not care how many rats you summon since "free" vp for them. same with spiders they dont come in with full health and slow.

In Turf war people will care slightly more since you can put significant models in the marker ever turn.

In reconoiter again you can put significant models in places to score vp

in Squatters they might not be able to interact but summoning them and walking next to a marker makes the opponet have to kill that model before interacting not doing so again gives vp.

stake a claim most summoners i know can prolly summon something over the half way point by turn 1-2 with certain setup or the summoned model can walk so it is or can be pushed or something else.

 

the above statements are very generalized.

Now if we go in to specific summoners and break it down you would need house rules when some strategies  come up and some when others do.

Sonnia can't out right summon anything unless she or her crew kills something with fire on it. in turf war this seems good since you know they are going to be there. in reconoiter not as fantastic but with a little setup could easily replace their model with your own again scoring vp. in reckoning maybe you want the stalker maybe you dont.

in stake a claim it would be a full turn before it could do much but its there. in squatters you are denying interations (hopefully) with that stalker.

 

Nicodem get unslow minions that can do what ever he wants cept interact. But needs a corpse which most times is near him and his board so its not terribly bad for most things. to top that off if mortimer is popping out markers his whole life he isn't doing much else. still once things start dying it gets better for nico. Unless they dont drop corpse markers.

 

Mcmourning his killing your stuff and getting a 13wd model for the trouble. not something that happens all the time everytime since it takes setup and some decent cards.

 

Seamus, Needs corpses and can only summon Rotten belles or Doxys (doxy are so much better lol) if no corpses are around he makes them if you kill his stuff he can replace the loss. but only if he has the cards or stones.

 

Kirai can summon off her fast incorporeal models and make more models every turn on top of the activation control of seshin, and on top of Ikryo Popping out wreaking havoc all day. Not being able to summon her in the first turns (as has been suggested) would make the kirai player unhappy with the house rule just by that.

 

Molly can shit out models 6" away with out the need for corpses to hold her back low wound count so most things go back if you hit them hard enough. But with hard to kill again burning that limited AP on a model that took me a card to summon.

 

Kaeris is just like Sonnia with her summon (more or less) so meh

 

Ramos is a dick in low cost games. Summoning 2-3 spiders turn 1 is amazing for reconnoiter and more so with turf war to make sure you will always have. reckoning might not be a big deal since they dont come in full health but being able to drop a scrap marker where you want it is fine. (thing walks magnetize to it killing it dropping scrap ap left to summon etc). For squatters is a night mare unless you have dont mind me. since you must kill the spiders to even interact. which in turn mind you drop more scrap that can be summoned off of.

 

Mechrider. Heh 12 stones that pays for itself for the models its summons. really good in reconnoiter since it poops out significant models, which drop scrap. when they die.

 

Dreamer. heh his upgrade costs 5 stones and any limiting on him makes him not useful for a hot minute. if the turn 1-2 rule cant summon daydreams, which in turn cant summon other things. so whats he going to do walk? use his SH action? gues he could empty night a few times while weathering the storm of his opponent. But without doing something he just barfs up models that kill things (looking at you stitched) great for turf war and squatters for reasons stated above. good for reconnoiter since model models everywhere.

 

Collodi is here but him summoning his marionettes is like Seamus just replacing his losses which can turn games at the 35 stone level but the turn 1-2 rule wont have any effect.

 

Somer 3 bayou gremlins first turn maybe some more after that depending on what the slop hauler is doing. great for reconnoiter and turf war and things that need schemes (damn cheap fast gremlins) the turn 1-2 has Great effect on somer. he is to busy to spend his time walking around doing other things and by turn 3 his crew is in the danger zone and summoning off them would be much more or a waste since killing a gremlin at 2 wounds is not that hard of a feat.

 

Any outcast master can use the Obedient Wretch to summon rats to eat up activations and make a rat king for a 4ss investment

 

Hamelin likes his stolen making rats and rat kings and rat catchers restrctions on him make him have to do other things which might not be two awful but the Hamelin player might be a little salty.

 

Levy. his best way to summon is to kill your stuff. Neutering ashes and dust turn 1-2 is fine for levys opponent. sure but if ashes dies on turn 2 do to sniper like things or shenaigains and cant drop its core. Salty levy player, rusty can summon with out scrap (unless you take her upgrade to shoot summon like levy) aboms not being able to form voltron might make levy salty also.

 

 

So what ever house Rules you make up it will Negatively effect one or more crews but have no bearing on some and out right neuter others.

 

There is no way to make it Balanced, and have both people walk away from the game feeling like they had a chance.

[brdparker]

Best thing that has been suggested is the "no summoning first two turns" rule, but I see the argument against that.

 

Potential workaround: On any action that summons, you must spend a number of SS's equal to 4 minus the turn number or the summon fails. You wanna summon early? Go for it, just know that you'll invest resources to do so.

 

Too much? Maybe 3 minus turn number.

 

The wording "any action that summons" allows for multiple summoning off the same action (which means A&D isn't screwed over). Ramos gets hit the least from that, but elegance of rules is sometimes better than actual balance in terms of a good player experience.

[rythos42]

Godlyness, that was a massive post that could have been summarized by your last sentence. You don't think the original goal is possible. I think, as Hateful said, that anything would be an improvement and could be start rough and be refined into being a generally useful houserule.

 

I like Brd's idea, although I think it's a much harsher version of what I proposed with cards. SS's are the ultimate in non-renewable resources! I'd definitely go with 3- instead of 4-, as 4- is brutal even at turn 3! This is, effectively "no summoning until turn 3" except that a player has a choice, and I like choices.

[SpiralngCadavr]

I'm cautious about any anti-Summoning plan that hits different Summoners differently. It's possible but I suspect it's too hard to balance.

 

Rules I like and would consider so far:

• No summoning Turn One and Two.
• Cap on how much you can Summon. ("Summon only slightly above your starting". Start + 1 model or Start + 5ss or something.)
• Summon only from basic Crew box.

 

Summon only from Crew box would mean that Ramos couldn't summon Electrical Creations ever, and Widow Weaver couldn't Summon at all (and should just not buy that upgrade) but I suspect it would help calm the results.

 

These are worth trying! Thank you!

Only from crew boxes is really weirdly and arbitrarily limiting.

 

So, does it mean that all boxes are fair game as long as they're starters?

 

In that case, Nicodem would have a huge number of options still, and some (like sonnia or mcmourning) would have full options without any restrictions, while others (like the now somewhat common horror summoners) would have a random smattering of Horror options.

 

Or does it mean that each Master would be restricted to their boxed sets for summons?

 

In that case, again, some would have full options, while others would be extremely limited (Nicodem can only summon near his most expensive options but not any cheap ones; Molly could summon Crooligans or Rogue Necromancy, but not her native Belle options; Karina and Yan Lo couldn't summon anything)

 

...and then there are the numerous models that transform into other things (nephilim, ashes & dust, rats) that would lose a key mechanic by not summoning their various new forms.

[Omenbringer]

Potential workaround: On any action that summons, you must spend a number of SS's equal to 4 minus the turn number or the summon fails. You wanna summon early? Go for it, just know that you'll invest resources to do so.

 

Too much? Maybe 3 minus turn number.

The big issue I see with this suggestion is that it again effects each summoner differently. Additionally, it is punishing summoners further by forcing them to either keep an extremely high cache (limiting their initial crew hires) which is depleted quicker than their opponents or not be able to summon at all until the "free spot" (and turn 4 is usually to late for them to be effective at all with the duel penalty of Slow and inability to perform Interact actions).

 

A summoner was designed with that in mind it is their identity, limiting that just makes them largely unusable. If they are so potent that they break the game when played in "fringe format's" or outside of recommended levels then just out right ban them in that range.

[brdparker]

Yeah, now that I think about it, 4-(TN) is too much, but I don't see anything wrong with 3-(TN). That makes the "free" turn at T3, which is fine IMHO. For 1 SS, you can get something T2, which is something to consider, but not insurmountable. Consider that for some summons, the model may drop a SS anyway to get the right suit (looking' at Nico and the Hanged, for example... I wouldn't mind giving him an extra SS tax on that guy early in a 35pt game, and I play that crew).

 

Here's a further modification:

 

The table gains the following condition until the end of the game: Low on Resources: During any action that summons a model, if the summoning model is not removed from the board from the summon, the acting model's controller must discard a number of soulstones equal to 3 minus the turn number or the summon(s) fail(s).

 

This allows A&D, growth summons, shapechange, Gupp into Silurid, and other such "changing" summons to be exempt.

[Math Mathonwy]

I really am having great difficulty understanding the viewpoint of "banning them is better than changing something about them".

No one is saying that small games are balanced. All (or at least nearly all) agree that summoners are too good at that points level. So what's the worst that could happen if you tinker with them? They might become too weak or not weak enough? How is that worse than banning them? The games won't be balanced anyhow! They will be beer and pretzels and having fun, not for deciding who is the best among the best.

If I want to play a Summoner, I would much rather take a handicap than be told that no way.

Besides, a 35SS game of Malifaux is likely more balanced than several other games at their designated points level.

[brdparker]

Another potential route is to follow the progression already set up for conditions, which includes slowness and no interactions:

 

The table gains the following condition until the end of the game: Something in the Air: When a model is summoned from an action that does not sacrifice the summoning model, its controller must sacrifice a number of friendly scheme markers within 6" of the active model equal to 3 minus the turn number or the summoned model receives the Paralyzed condition as well as the Slow condition.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a model with paralyzed and slow loses its activation during the paralyzed activation and slow carries to the second activation, making this a rather brutal treatment, but fairly avoidable with some planning.

 

 

I really am having great difficulty understanding the viewpoint of "banning them is better than changing something about them".

No one is saying that small games are balanced. All (or at least nearly all) agree that summoners are too good at that points level. So what's the worst that could happen if you tinker with them? They might become too weak or not weak enough? How is that worse than banning them? The games won't be balanced anyhow! They will be beer and pretzels and having fun, not for deciding who is the best among the best.

If I want to play a Summoner, I would much rather take a handicap than be told that no way.

Besides, a 35SS game of Malifaux is likely more balanced than several other games at their designated points level.

 

I agree, but I also enjoy rule creation, which explains my presence here. Honestly, I'll probably never use any of these house rules unless they put it into a chronicles edition or something official.

[Kadeton]

I think a key question, which doesn't seem to be getting much attention, is which summoners are considered broken at 35ss. Is it honestly all summoning? Heaps of Masters in the game (and a few Henches) have summoning mechanics. Digging further into that might make the perception of the problem a bit clearer, and lead to more targeted suggestions.

 

My suspicion would be that the Dreamer, Nicodem and Ramos were the main sources of complaints, but since I have almost no experience playing 35ss games that's just an educated guess. If it turns out that people are actually having more bad experiences with Sonnia and Levy's summoning, I'll be surprised but it will give us a lot more info to go on about how the problem might be "fixed".

 

I also suspect that part of the problem, in the case of certain summoners, is simply a negative reaction to "win-more" mechanics. If the enemy McMourning blows up your big hitter before it can contribute, you've probably already lost at 35ss - the game is so small that a single significant loss will sink you. But if he also gets to summon a Flesh Construct (or for other Masters a Witchling, Abomination, etc) at the same time... well, you've still lost, but it feels even more unfair.

 

I still feel like reducing the game length is the simplest balance. The summoners who focus on summoning won't have time to build up ridiculous forces and overwhelm the opponent - the game would tilt in favour of mobile Masters and crews instead, without having to rebalance the whole game or introduce special limitations on certain mechanics. It also has the advantage of being a short game, so if you can see the game is going badly, just forfeit, re-rack and play another game. You should be able to knock out a 35ss game in 45 mins, and play a few in an evening. 35ss should never be a competitive format, so a simple change of attitude towards the game (35ss for some quick fun, 50ss for serious business) would make a big difference in perception.

[Math Mathonwy]

I also suspect that part of the problem, in the case of certain summoners, is simply a negative reaction to "win-more" mechanics. If the enemy McMourning blows up your big hitter before it can contribute, you've probably already lost at 35ss - the game is so small that a single significant loss will sink you. But if he also gets to summon a Flesh Construct (or for other Masters a Witchling, Abomination, etc) at the same time... well, you've still lost, but it feels even more unfair.

Are you saying that it is a false perception?

I still feel like reducing the game length is the simplest balance. The summoners who focus on summoning won't have time to build up ridiculous forces and overwhelm the opponent - the game would tilt in favour of mobile Masters and crews instead, without having to rebalance the whole game or introduce special limitations on certain mechanics. It also has the advantage of being a short game, so if you can see the game is going badly, just forfeit, re-rack and play another game. You should be able to knock out a 35ss game in 45 mins, and play a few in an evening. 35ss should never be a competitive format, so a simple change of attitude towards the game (35ss for some quick fun, 50ss for serious business) would make a big difference in perception.

I think that this is a very bad idea. Many of the Schemes are already really difficult due to smaller model counts, limiting the turn limit further would make them utterly impossible. Besides, this would affect all the Masters and crews wildly when the problematic ones really are the Summoners.

[Parker Barrows]

I kinda skimmed. I don't think anyone suggest the following (and sorry if they did):

 

What about something like this:

 

"No Summoning"

 

Then add in a Scheme that can is auto-included along with A Line in the Sand called "Summoning: Summoning is allowed in this Crew. You receive no VP for taking this scheme which must be revealed."

 

It forces the summoner to give up three potential VP to summon.

 

Or maybe instead of no summoning, the summoned models are removed from the board at the end of the turn they are summoned on. And the Scheme removes that limit.

 

Alternatively, summoned models are removed at the end of the next turn they are summoned on (so summoners get a full activation along with the Slow first activation). This would be a idea for a general rule rather than going with my Scheme idea above.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Preventing 3 points and scoring all of yours to even get a tie seems a bit extreme. I'd never play with that rule, and would rather get occasionally beaten up by strong summoners than have such a prohibitive rule against moderate ones.

[brdparker]

I kinda skimmed. I don't think anyone suggest the following (and sorry if they did):

 

What about something like this:

 

"No Summoning"

 

Then add in a Scheme that can is auto-included along with A Line in the Sand called "Summoning: Summoning is allowed in this Crew. You receive no VP for taking this scheme which must be revealed."

 

It forces the summoner to give up three potential VP to summon.

 

Or maybe instead of no summoning, the summoned models are removed from the board at the end of the turn they are summoned on. And the Scheme removes that limit.

 

Alternatively, summoned models are removed at the end of the next turn they are summoned on (so summoners get a full activation along with the Slow first activation). This would be a idea for a general rule rather than going with my Scheme idea above.

 

 

Ouch, that's a little harsh

 

TBH, if it needs anything (and many posters here are of the opinion that it doesn't), it's just a little tiny tweak against the summoners/summoned model, but to deny 30% of the game potential is simply brutal. And you may argue that they're free to ignore the summoning, but what if they simply enjoy playing like that? They should be able to without handicapping themselves so drastically.

 

So what sort of resources do we have?

 

- Cards to discard

- SS's

- Negative conditions, be it temporary (like Slow) or permanant

- Wound count (taken from the summoner or summon)

- Schemish Markers

- AP

 

SS's make the obvious choice as a resource to expend, since the player would have had to expend SS's to hire the model in the first place. Scheme markers and Negative conditions continue the trend of normal summoning (slow and no interacts). Earlier-game summons have more AP (assume an average of 2 AP/turn makes 9 with the first turn Slow, of depreciating value every turn thereafter), so a limit based on the turn could be a thing. Cards have already been mostly argued away as being too easy to circumvent for many summoners. I feel the same goes for wound count.

 

Then, let's look at the different types of summons:

- I expend this counter and summon a thing

- I cut myself and summon a thing

- I summon a thing because I want to (Molly and Mech Rider)

 

- I kill you and summon a thing

- I sac myself and summon a thing or two (growth)

 

First three typically use specific-suited high cards (or high card with a stone). Second ones are contingent on taking something from the opponent (generally blood, body parts, or what is for all intents and purposes XP) or transforming (A&D and Myranda).

 

Did I leave any resources or summoning archtypes out?

 

EDIT: I just thought of another resource: Upgrade slots. There could be a restriction in the form of "To summon this game, you have to discard X whatevers or the summon fails). Then, have an all-faction upgrade in the form of:

 

Cost: 2 SS's (or whatever....)

Ability: This model and all friendly minions and peons in LOS may ignore the summoning restriction for the game.

Rare 3

[Kadeton]

Are you saying that it is a false perception?

That it's unfair? Largely. The practical difference between "You lose" and "You lose (and I get a free thing)" is negligible. Either way, you lose.

I think that this is a very bad idea. Many of the Schemes are already really difficult due to smaller model counts, limiting the turn limit further would make them utterly impossible. Besides, this would affect all the Masters and crews wildly when the problematic ones really are the Summoners.

Which schemes? I'm probably forgetting the tricky ones because I basically never take schemes that I'm not confident of getting full points for by the end of turn 3 (too many tournament games running short on time).

I'm not convinced that "the problematic ones really are the Summoners", honestly. They're the ones people complain about, for sure, but I can see a lot of 35ss games going downhill very quickly with, without or in spite of summoning. Hell, I've killed more than 35ss of models in a single activation with the Viktorias and Rasputina. Is that unbalanced at 35ss?

The summoning Master that I can see really warping the game is (Pain) Dreamer. Summoning really good models, needing nothing more than high cards, seems like it would be a huge problem (he's already one of the strongest Masters at 50ss). But I'd be just as scared of getting overwhelmed by Dreamer as I would of getting blasted off the board by someone like Sonnia or Perdita.

It makes me wonder whether it's not so much that summoning is the problem, as 35ss games exaggerating the fact that some Masters need more support than others to really shine. If you can't afford to build a solid crew (which at 35ss, you can't) those weaknesses are going to be way more pronounced. Summoners can cover that by bringing in more crew, and other Masters can't (but some don't need to) - is that what we're really seeing here?

Interested in others' thoughts.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I wouldn't play in such a game regardless of what master I'm playing with.

I've made the point before but the problem here isn't that summoning is a problem in low SS games, its that low ss games in a skirmish game are a problem.

The issue is in a skirmish game, when you already have a small model count, if you decide to play a game with an even smaller model count you are going to have problems. All that's going to happen if you artificially cuddle summoners, is that you are going to artificially increase the ability of another class of master to be just as broken in low ss games as summoner's are now.

You can't just change one whole class of rules to bring balance to the whole system. The issue isn't the summoning rules, the issue is at low ss games you have very few tools to get any particular job done. Anything that gives you more tools is going to unbalance that. Conversely, anything that is exceptionally good at removing your opponent's models in such a game is also going to to seem OP.

If we accept that low SS games are going to be wildly swingy and unbalanced I'm personally not sure what purpose it serves to try to balance such a system by only focusing on one mechanic. If its a casual game and you don't want to face a summoner at low ss just ask. If its a competitive game all you are going to do by Cuddling summoning is move the flag of OP from one class of model to another. So why bother trying to house rule it?

My opinion is that summoning isn't the problem, The probelm is the game size. Now that said, there is no wrongbadfun, so if your group finds te perfect system you are happy with, more power to you, and make sure you share it. But without a TOTAL rebalancing if the game, across all mechanics, I'm not sure I personally would have any interest in such a system, which is totally cool.

Regardless of of my opinion I do wish you and your group luck.