Most complex master?

[surly]

I'm playing my Viktoria crew since M2E came out and therefore I'm currently looking for something new and ... well ... more complex to be honest.

Since our playgroup only plays a small amount of different masters I don't have that much insight about all the possible options like others here.

Therefore I'd be really like to know what's in your opinion the most complex, hardest to learn an thoughest to master master(s) out there.

Thanks in regards for any input

Cheers

(in case my spelling or grammar is mistaken please excuse me, it's not my native language)

[zFiend]

Probably the Shenlong, Leveticus and Collodi would be my picks.

[dancater]

I'd put some coin on...

 

Jack Daw I've heard it tough to really get him going and its an unusual mechanic.

 

Collette is I think the toughest of the Arcanist (my favored faction) but she is not that tough once you wrap your head around her schtick.

 

I think it is worth mentioning that every Master can be tough. Also that their is a wide margin between...

 

(1) Tough to learn, by which I mean that the "method" is initially tricky either because of an unusual mechanic (unique to the way the Master works) or because the Master needs many moving parts and models to work together to maximise and you must refine the mix and activation order or because it is a Master where fragility or slowness means that poor positioning will quickly see you so far behind you can't recover.

 

(2) Tough to be superb, where "getting" the Master is one thing but really making the machine sing is really hard. I think this is the result of either a combination of the factors above working together or that the initial learning is simple but the power play is nuanced.

 

Thus I place Jack Daw as my first really tough one as he has I think several factors going on; an unusual mechaninc, several members of the crew work with key interactions and it is a group which can be overwhelmed quickly if you mess it up.

 

Its funny because I find the Vik's tricky, they have an obvious mechanic (ginsu of doom!) but are notoriously fragile (the glass ginsu) and require careful activation and coordination of models to really get that speed and smash working. If you get the Vik missile up well its messy in a good way, if you fail its still messy.... either way its fast with not much room for error. 

[Rathnard]

Collodi was the one I found to be especially tough to use, if only for all the cheap models and conditions he hands out. There's alot of record keeping required with him.

But as for tough to Master, I'll put my vote in for Jack Daw. Figuring out his basics isn't too hard, but his many movement effects, as well as a need to maintain LOS between key models offers a depth that can be a bit overwhelming if you haven't practiced with him.

[Nical]

I think Jack daw or Shenlong is most complex master, but I think most complex crew is Levi's Crew. 

Because Jack Daw and Shelong's Basics are very complex, but Levi has the greatest 'model pool' by Pariah Upgrades.  

 

Collodi is a complex master, but his basic is not complex. It is just limited, because Collodi sometimes can't do nothing for Something. (For Example, Enforcers)

So Collodi(and his player) must think about his limits, and that make him complex.

[Kadeton]

For difficulty to learn, the hardest I've found so far is Tara. Her burial, fast/slow and activation mechanics fit together like a complex machine, but your opponent (or your own inexperience) can easily throw sand in the gears and ruin her flow.

 

For toughness to master, ironically, I would probably go with the Viktorias. They tend to stomp people who aren't very experienced against them, but once your opponents learn to counter, they can become much more of a challenge to play effectively. They require constant re-evaluation of risk versus reward, and close attention to be paid to activation control and positioning. Basically, they're so fragile that a single mistake can lose you one or both in the blink of an eye, and that makes them difficult to consistently win with.

 

However, you're clearly looking for a new challenge, so (sticking with Outcasts) I'm going to echo others and suggest Jack Daw. If you want a change of Faction, I think Zoraida (Neverborn or Gremlin flavours) presents a very challenging set of options to master.

[Shadowopal]

Tara and Jack Daw have my vote.

[AuroraZ]

I'm also voting for Jack Daw, Colette, and Tara.

 

I feel when it comes down to it, most of these masters' difficulties come from being willing to play in a style that isn't just shooting or stabbing all the time.  With Colette, for example, you need to keep in mind that you're going to be laying down and moving a lot of scheme markers, while Tara and her crew do a lot of tricky things with burying both her own models and opponents models.  

 

If it helps, here's a tip: I struggled with Colette frequently in 1.5, mostly because the people who had taught me how to play miniatures came from games that rely on killing your opponents models as quickly as possible.  I was particularly frustrated because I love Colette's flavor, so when her 2e rules came out, I sat down with a bunch of notecards and went through her crew's actions, abilities, and available upgrades, and wrote down a summary of what I could do with those things and how they could interact with each other.  Time consuming?  Yes.  But I won my first 2e game with her with over twice as many VP as my opponent, so it was worth it.  Moral of the story?  If a Master's flavor appeals to you and someone tells you they're a complex master to play, don't let it deter you.  It'll take a bit of extra work, but it is SO SATISFYING when you tally up VP in the end.

[hypoking]

Kirai, hands down. She's got so many options in a given turn it hurts my mind. Optimizing summoning chains. Model positioning. Resource management. Going face tank next to a seishen or full auto with sundering.

 

Colette will always fuck around with ap manipulation, mobility, and scheme markers. Leveticus will always summon things, kill things, and come back from the dead. Kirai does just about everything. One turn she could be popping out models like Dreamer, the next shell be firing away like Perdita, the one after that she'll zip herself and her pals along like Colette, and the one after that she does a reasonable impersonation of Seamus refusing to die. Playing Kirai gives you so many levers and switches to play around with that it kind of screws with your head and you find yourself pushing and pulling at random and watching the fireworks.

[zFiend]

Wow. So glad I have Kirai after reading that.

[Patzer]

Of the masters I have either played or faced, I would say that Shenlong is probably the most complex. Keeping track of all of the conditions he can gain and give, all the abilities he got on his upgrades, and when to switch upgrade for best results can just be taxing to keep track of while you are in game. With that said, once you get used to it, it will click like it is second nature.

 

Tara is a master that is just hard to get working.

[surly]

Thanks for all the replies

For toughness to master, ironically, I would probably go with the Viktorias.

Funny thing is that we discussed this thought in our playgroup recently, and I have to agree with you. However, imho, once you get some experience with them things become a lot easier.

The main issue I currently have while playing them is that they don't have that many different choices when building a crew. Some modells shoot, some are nice in melee, but beside that there are no huge tricks in their pool imho.

Thanks everybody for sharing their thoughts on this issue Among all the choices, I also considered Kirai, Tara, Jack Daw and Leveticus as complex options. However I'm not so much into them when it comes to style, therefore I'm probably looking for something else.

Shen Long is a great suggestion, will definately consider this one when its box arrives

Any other ideas?

I thought about Yan Lo or maybe even Marcus. The first one because you always have to choose your playstile depending on your opponent, the second one simply because he has such a huge pool of options. I haven't seen either of them in real play though, so maybe I overestimate them a bit.

[Math Mathonwy]

I was really surprised by how complex Lilith actually is. Even just Tangle offers such a bottomless well of possibilities and her other tricks are very neat as well. Heck, just ignoring LOS is huge in opening up all sorts of options.

[moxypoo]

In terms of complexity, Tara fits this the best out of all the masters I've played with or against (and I've seen almost all of them).  Her playstyle is so counter-intuitive, because you're making the opponent's models better and trying to get rid of the cards in your hand.  However, once you get things running and start controlling the board, it can be extremely difficult for your opponent to actually do anything significant.

 

 

Thanks everybody for sharing their thoughts on this issue Among all the choices, I also considered Kirai, Tara, Jack Daw and Leveticus as complex options. However I'm not so much into them when it comes to style, therefore I'm probably looking for something else.

Shen Long is a great suggestion, will definately consider this one when its box arrives

 

Since it seems like you're into the Ten Thunders a little, might I suggest trying out McCabe? I played him recently and was surprised at how many tactical options he has during any given turn.  On paper he doesn't seem that complex, but once you begin the game, you'll realize how many cool things he can do.

[daemonkin]

If you want to utilize your current model pool I'd go with Levi, Tara and Jack as more complex masters than Vik. Proxy and see for yourself.

 

D.

[osoi]

For me its Tara, she is complex to get working and you really need to know order of operations and target priority to get the most from her. hat said she is very satisfying to play when you get that right an dhow you get that right varies in most games, sometimes quite considerably.

[dancater]

Surly

 

I see the angle you are flying on, I suspect a problem you will encounter is many (if not all) of the tricky Masters are tough to initially learn and then become much easier once you gain experience and that again most Masters have a fellow "the models which work well" limitation.

 

Marcus I can advice on, he does have a huge pool of models but I don't think it will fulfil your needs. Marcus himself is pretty much a beatstick/support model depnding on options. His pool of models while extensive is channeled to variations on melee mayhem, not many spell tricks or shooting or other tricks which really flip things up.

 

Have you considered Lucius, I did not suggest him initially but he can be a little tricksie and he also has some interesting options as a dual Master who relies on supporting his crew, in this way he is similar to Yan Lo. However I think he can really make some interesting and yet effective lists which play in totally different styles.

 

Also I'll repeat Collette, I mentioned her before and couple of others also did, you did not state if she interested you. It is a pretty "learn the style, play the style" similar to the Vik's but its tricky, kinda left field and fun.

[surly]

Again, thanks for all the input

 

If you want to utilize your current model pool I'd go with Levi, Tara and Jack as more complex masters than Vik. Proxy and see for yourself.

 

True that. I also considered Levi and Jack recently, the only problem I have with them is their style. I simply don't like the style of Wyrd's Abomiantions and the Guilty. However playwise they seem like the perfect fit actually, so I'm a bit torn between those and other options.

Haven't looked for alternative miniatures for those modells yet though.

 

Surly

 

I see the angle you are flying on, I suspect a problem you will encounter is many (if not all) of the tricky Masters are tough to initially learn and then become much easier once you gain experience and that again most Masters have a fellow "the models which work well" limitation.

 

Marcus I can advice on, he does have a huge pool of models but I don't think it will fulfil your needs. Marcus himself is pretty much a beatstick/support model depnding on options. His pool of models while extensive is channeled to variations on melee mayhem, not many spell tricks or shooting or other tricks which really flip things up.

 

Have you considered Lucius, I did not suggest him initially but he can be a little tricksie and he also has some interesting options as a dual Master who relies on supporting his crew, in this way he is similar to Yan Lo. However I think he can really make some interesting and yet effective lists which play in totally different styles.

 

Also I'll repeat Collette, I mentioned her before and couple of others also did, you did not state if she interested you. It is a pretty "learn the style, play the style" similar to the Vik's but its tricky, kinda left field and fun.

 

Thanks for the reply   I didn't even considered Lucius yet tbh, since I neither like Guild nor Neverborn ... I'm pretty picky as you may see

Collette would be a awesome choice, but is already played by two other people in our playgroup, so I'd like to avoid her.

 

For me its Tara, she is complex to get working and you really need to know order of operations and target priority to get the most from her. hat said she is very satisfying to play when you get that right an dhow you get that right varies in most games, sometimes quite considerably.

 

Problem with Tara is mainly getting a copy of her imo. She neither shows up on ebay, neither is there any release date for her official box.

Once she's released I guess I'll give her a shot though

 

In terms of complexity, Tara fits this the best out of all the masters I've played with or against (and I've seen almost all of them).  Her playstyle is so counter-intuitive, because you're making the opponent's models better and trying to get rid of the cards in your hand.  However, once you get things running and start controlling the board, it can be extremely difficult for your opponent to actually do anything significant.

 

 

 

Since it seems like you're into the Ten Thunders a little, might I suggest trying out McCabe? I played him recently and was surprised at how many tactical options he has during any given turn.  On paper he doesn't seem that complex, but once you begin the game, you'll realize how many cool things he can do.

 

As said, I'll probably give Tara a try one day

However McCabe seems a bit  ... boring to be honest. In a game where a Teddy will hug you dead or a zombie hooker will lure you into death, a guy on a horse doesn't seem so special to me at all. Looking like Wolferine does probably help, but not enough, at least for me

[Patzer]

However McCabe seems a bit  ... boring to be honest. In a game where a Teddy will hug you dead or a zombie hooker will lure you into death, a guy on a horse doesn't seem so special to me at all. Looking like Wolferine does probably help, but not enough, at least for me

 

If you don't like the Indiana Jones feel of McCabe, that is fine, and you should play stuff you like the thematic feel of. However, he is a ton of fun! Give him a go, you will not be disappointed.

[SpectreEliteGaming]

Collodi and Jack Daw are probably most complex with Daw getting a slight edge because of his tricksiness - both are unforgiving if you screw up, as well. Tara is unforgiving but no more difficult than Leveticus.

Leveticus is very repetitive and your decisions on hiring pool will be optimized in no time and I find little fluctuation in the "best choices." Zoraida has a large pool too but I don't think this makes them more difficult at all. If anything, it makes them easier to play.

Instead of singling out specific masters I would simply seperate the masters into two categories - ones that run the show and ones that are support. Support masters will almost certainly be more complex and will give you a good change from Viks.

Make a list of support masters and decide which one you are most interested in.

Or just pick Daw because reasons

Worst thing you can do is get caught in a narrow frame of mind and just play masters "the way they are supposed to be played." You can really throw people off by playing your masters unconventionally (Daw and Zoraida are the two that immediately come to mind in this regard - Tara too, actually). Of course, not all masters are capable of this, obviously, and with some if you play them any different than standard you'll have a hard time winning.

[Adran]

I've ummed and arghed about this post, but Id say master like Lady Justice can be just as complex to master as someone like Jack Daw. The difference is she has a relatively easy learning curve to good, and a much trickier learning curve to excellent.

 

Some of it is that the "more complex masters to learn" are harder to learn against. So seem relatively more powerful, until they face an opponent who is used to them.

 

I would largely agree with Spectre above, playing your master unconventially can really surprise people. I think this should be pretty possible with all the masters (Hoffman might be a struggle with no constructs at all, but everything else should be fine).

[dancater]

Well man....

 

I think there is a firm consensus with Jack Daw pretty solid at one, Levi, Tara and Collodi also strongly featured.

 

But the problem is you want a Master who is tough to play and with a concept which inspires.....

 

You seem to not be keen on Guild or Neverborn, nor fired up on Jack Daw, Levi or Tara. Collette is to common in your local scene so she is out as well.

 

Now McCabe is interesting and I use his box in my Lucius varient so you get cross over if you change your mind on the Governers Lieutenant (I go Sidar, Wastrels, Mr Tannen, Doppleganger and Pathfinders), not a bad choice.

 

But to be honest you mentioned Yan Lo, he is (from what I've seen never played him) a Master with an odd schtick, as a TT/Rezzer you could experiment with a wide model pool (but no idea how that would go outside of his "normal" crew). He seems to have support/face smash options and an interesting flavor which you at least have considered.

 

This barring Shen Long who is unavailable.

 

One final note have you looked at Gremlins, they are crazy wack jobs all and unpredictability leads to insanity but also they are a love 'em/loath 'em faction so.....

And (again own but not played yet) the Mad Doctor McMourning, I am not sure how 'hard' he is but again a dual faction model pool and the mega poison schtick means he's got plenty of choice and at least an unusual mechanic.

 

So, I think you've seen the main community input and certainly mine. Seems your balance of hard/inspire is probably Yan Lo for the period until Shen Long is released. Still read through the book, maybe one of the Masters mentioned here will suddenly grab you (its happened to me several times).

 

Luck.

[Math Mathonwy]

Somer is cool in that he can do all sorts of things. He can summon, he can be support, he can blast away (his weapon does absolutely insane damage). He can go with pigs, he can go with cheap Gremlins, he can go with more expensive Gremlins. He is extremely versatile.

[surly]

Thanks again for all your input. Especially to you dancater since you put quite some work into it

I'll probably decide between Gremlins with So'mer and 10T with Yan Lo and Shan Long once it's released.

Right now Gremlins get a bit of advantage, since I already own a box of So'mer (since I wanted a Johanna back then).

Though those may be not the most complex masters, I guess they're still tricky enough for a different game experience compared to the Viktorias.

I'll read a few pages about those masters on PMF and decide then

Again, thanks for all the input. Helped me a lot

[AL the zombie]

I've been having quite a lot of fun with Yan Lo recently. He might not be the most complex master, but he certainly has a wide swath in terms of play style options. I really enjoy the flexibility of the chi mechanic and the upgrades he can bring to the table throughout the game.