Gorbad Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 I'm well aware that they will not become there own masters, the amount of work involves in that pretty much rules it out I would have thought. I was more stating an 'ideal situation' for me, not a practical one. It will be very interesting to see the changes that are being brought it. I know I was running low on test enthusiasm with the old version of Colette and was very happy to see an extended break. While some of them were close to done she still felt like she was looking for a reason to exist. No henchmen around here but January is soon enough, at the moment the game doesn't feel like its lacking them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowdragon Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 If we have to have avatars at all (I'd also be happy without them) I'd rather they be more like epic warcasters in warmachine. Basically they're just different builds of existing warcasters (or in this case masters). It works pretty well in warmachine, don't see why it's such a big deal for malifaux. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 If we have to have avatars at all (I'd also be happy without them) I'd rather they be more like epic warcasters in warmachine. Basically they're just different builds of existing warcasters (or in this case masters). It works pretty well in warmachine, don't see why it's such a big deal for malifaux. Because designing a single master is a very arduous process and a huge game changer. A warcaster is very simple compared to a master (and warcasters are already very defined things), since the master tends to use a lot less recycled assets when compared to other masters while also having 4-6 upgrades associated to it. There is barely any rules recycling between masters. Avatars would justify a bit more of that since they are technically a more advanced form of the base master, but it's still very intense design wise. Also, you have just multiplied the number of masters in the game by 2. The game is already still getting used to the new edition, and I don't know about you, but I play a decent amount of matches and I'm still having a very hard time testing all the stuff I could try out. The game is already chock full of options at the moment. Could it be done? yeah sure and it would be the best way to make the avatar model be interily fiathful playwise, why not? but the process would be a LOT longer and with very big chances that it will devolve into a mess simply because of how complex masters tend to be, expectations of people because they are "avatars" and so on. I still remember the Leveticus beta and god knows I'm in no hurry to see more of that. I could go for this but in a time frame of a couple of years, not before next gencon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wake of Godzilla Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 Thanks for the update, the push back of the date is good for the game. With models not out for wave 2 and people still getting to grips with the new masters we have I think that taking a break will be good for the community. I would second the idea of a separate play mode for avatars would be fun, maybe even back to master specific schemes or something rather than part of standard play. It would make for some great formats to story/campaign or organised play/gaining grounds. i.e tournament format could end up looking like 2 henchmen lead games, 2 master lead games and an avatar lead game. Though if they where part of the main game then the TO could just restrict the upgrade for a similar effect. I guess I'm excited to have them back but don't feel that the game is currently missing anything for there absence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorbad Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 Because designing a single master is a very arduous process and a huge game changer. A warcaster is very simple compared to a master I don't really think masters in Malifaux is that much more complex/complicated than a 'caster in WM/H. They usually recycles a few spells, but outside of that most casters don't share that much. Anyway, the reason it works very well in WM/H is that they only release a single caster per faction per book. If you were to double the number of masters that is a workload way bigger and I can easily see why PP wouldn't want to do that, especially after the huge work of changing edition. Now I'd be totally happy with just seeing the avatars slowly released as alternate masters over time as part of the normal release schedule but given the models already exist that's probably not a viable plan either. So it will be very interesting to see what they have changed, the whole process of playing a separate mini-game to manifest just felt a little odd, although it was rather master dependent. If you were a combat master, especially one that killed at range you were fine, it would probably be fairly easy for you to manifest early in the game. If you were a support master, not so much. The whole mid-game transformation and the problem with that is then reinforced by the game only being five turns. If you manifest in turn 4 you don't really get much from your avatar. The avatar card acting as a normal upgrade was a pretty good step towards counter-balancing that, but we shall see how the mechanism shakes out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viagrus Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 Kinda off topic, sorry. I only playtested Pandora's Avatar once and didn't really pay much attention to the forum discussions on them so this question may be very dumb. Since the avatars last playtest cycle were upgrades could Hans shoot the avatar upgrade off the master? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 Kinda off topic, sorry. I only playtested Pandora's Avatar once and didn't really pay much attention to the forum discussions on them so this question may be very dumb. Since the avatars last playtest cycle were upgrades could Hans shoot the avatar upgrade off the master? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 Yes. No. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 No. Oh? Why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypoking Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 Read the big book. Anyway, I'm kind of hoping against hope here that this doesn't stretch into next Gencon. Three release cycles of 'rules for stuff you already own' is a bit much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 Read the big book. Anyway, I'm kind of hoping against hope here that this doesn't stretch into next Gencon. Three release cycles of 'rules for stuff you already own' is a bit much. Well, there is still stuff in the original M2E book to be released, then more or less all of Crossroads, and any new models are coming after that. Would you prefer rules for models that won't be available for a year or two? New models are all about release schedules which I have little to do with. Anyway, I've given my thoughts on what I'd like to do with the next book elsewhere. I think avatars will fit into it well. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hypoking Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 Yes. Most enjoyable part about this whole process was seeing new toys to play with. Brexie, Ulix, Old Major, Sammy, are all great additions to the game even without corporeal representation. Even Tara for all her flaws has been a blast to mess around with. Hell, I scrapped my Avatar Somer and turned it into an Old Major and it's probably the best decision I've made in regards to this game in a long time. A model without rules is a fancy paper weight where a rule without a model is an opportunity to flex the old creative muscles and have some fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 Yes. Most enjoyable part about this whole process was seeing new toys to play with. Brexie, Ulix, Old Major, Sammy, even Tara for all her flaws has been a blast to mess around with. Hell, I scrapped my Avatar Somer and turned it into an Old Major and it's probably the best decision I've made in regards to this game in a long time. A model without rules is a fancy paper weight where a rule without a model is an opportunity to flex the old creative muscles and have some fun. All well and good. I'd prefer to have rules and models, though. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zFiend Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 I'd prefer to have rules and models, though. Most definitely this option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 Well, there is still stuff in the original M2E book to be released, then more or less all of Crossroads, and any new models are coming after that. Would you prefer rules for models that won't be available for a year or two? Glad to hear that new model development is on hold for a bit. This will give what is already available time to really see the wild (and tournament environments) and any issues that pop up be addressed prior to introducing even more interactions. My only real complaint with the last edition was the rush to release new "cool" stuff without really addressing problem interactions first (and then releasing crews that centered on those "cool" problem interactions). M2e is still shaking things out and that is healthy for the longevity of the game, rushing cool new things is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierowmaniac Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 I am instituting some major changes which will, hopefully, address all issues. YAY! Really glad you are considering making major changes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted September 30, 2014 Report Share Posted September 30, 2014 The thing I think is most amusing out of this is Shenlong. Originally a dragon, then a dragon avatar, and now... we'll see what happens with avatars. He's like the anti-Trogdor. Shenlong was a DRAGON Well, maybe he was a DRAGON-MAN Maybe he was just a MAN But he was still SHENLONG! He's a perfect example of killing your darlings. Nice work Justin, keen to see what happens in the next stage of development. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hateful Darkblack Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 Shenlong was a DRAGON Well, maybe he was a DRAGON-MAN Maybe he was just a MAN But he was still SHENLONG! If Shenlong ends up with a Burninate action, I will buy Crew and Avatar sight unseen at any price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetaphoricDragn Posted October 1, 2014 Report Share Posted October 1, 2014 If Shenlong ends up with a Burninate action, I will buy Crew and Avatar sight unseen at any price. ... Well he does come with some peasants to use it on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Git Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 Can I hope against hope that absolutely nothing changes to the Kirai Avatar?? I love those rules and if they stay the same for me it's the first thing on my list! (Note: I don't think they're OP, they just suit my style of play with her so well!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted October 12, 2014 Report Share Posted October 12, 2014 Very happy to hear major overhaul to the avatars design concept. Last interation was fighting with one arm and one leg tied behinds our back and we could only make kicks. As a concept the big hulking cool looking bases is neat, but I definitely want playability and utility over things like sizzle and wow factor. Not saying there isn't room for both, but something I'll take as an opiton over something that breaks or is unusable in general play. With proper thought and a realistic design goal with the avatars I think will do wonders for them. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Sarcasm) Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 What are some of the directions Wyrd could take the rules in? I haven't seen the previous beta rules but I can kind of grasp the problems of 'race for the avatar' and 'can't win unless you have one'. Perhaps some inspiration from Warmachine's 'Epic' 'casters could be viable. To clarify, giving players in-game options to overhaul/change the direction their master's playstyle without making them more powerful overall, if more dramatic looking. Could prove to be useful to escape 'bad matchup's' or after completing a scheme that suits the master's normal playstyle - changing to one that makes subsequent schemes easier to achieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 They already stated that entirely new cards wouldn't be viable, I believe earlier in this thread actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LunarSol Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 One potentially interesting option is for the Avatar form to only last a turn. At the very least, that would dull the issue with it needing to be raced out to get a worthwhile value from it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausplosions Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 One potentially interesting option is for the Avatar form to only last a turn. At the very least, that would dull the issue with it needing to be raced out to get a worthwhile value from it. An expensive, large and centrepiece model, that you no doubt spent a deal of time on assembling and painting, that you sacrifice one of your upgrade slots for, that you can use for one single activation in a game seems like a good way to create the most expensive paperwieights in wargaming. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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