New to Mailfaux, why did so many 1E drop out?

[warpigdave]

So I'm new to Malifaux and after seeing some differences between 1E and M2E I seem to prefer M2E, it's easier for me as a new player.  But I remember it seemed to be strong in 1E, and now some people that played 1E have dissapeared, because of the change over.  I've talked to some that used to play, but weren't into 2E, and seen discussions of 2E losing interest to others.  Why did those people drop the game?  2E to me seems to be an improvement.  But I'm trying to drum up some interest at my FLGS for it, and I've seen quite a few that used to play but don't anymore. 

 

Heck I went to a tourney the other day and the organizer didn't even know there was a M2E.  Good thing I was the only player that showed because the organizer would've run into some problems if players expected to play M2E.

 

 

[Inquisitor Wall]

Simple answer is people don't like change.

Many people have also been coming back into the game after swearing it off, and have certainly been enjoying it. Basically the only complaint I still hear is players want the official stat cards for the wave 2 models.

[Fetid Strumpet]

There were a few stylistic issues as well. Some people loath the look of all the markers that scatter over the board now.

[Fenton Crack]

I think there were also several players that, even if somewhat indifferent to one version or the other, just prefer stability. When the game was in transition with the extended beta, without a formal Rulebook available, as well as the unavailability of some of the models, I think some of the players, current or potential, chose to sit out and wait for the game and scene to gel. I know I still confuse aspects of some models for. Their earlier or beta incarnations and can see where some people want to play the finished product and are not interested in beta testing where things keep changing. Hopefully those that put the game down to wait for a completed proudest will continue to filter back.

Hopefully the demand will keep ramping up and Wyrd will be able to adequately predict or prepare as far as producing enough the rulebooks, decks and models for the demand level, as I know there were some last fall that were eager to jump in, but could not get a hand on the new Rulebook, or the crew they wanted was not available in plastic.

[Mike3838]

That's very strange that someone could be into this game enough to run an event but be so far out of the loop that they didn't know that there's a 2nd edition. They can't have checked the website here, or bought any miniatures, or seen any new releases, for over a year!

A few people quit during the transition, but they were replaced (and then some!) by new players who enjoy how accessible M2E is when compared to the old version. It's bigger now than it ever was.

[dgraz]

I didn't quit. Thank god for M2E.........my player base has more than doubled.

[notmikehill]

I was one of the few players who ditched out when it jumped from 1.5 to M2E. I remember when 10 Thunders came out and I thought to myself "Great, now there's going to be plastic resculpts of the pewter resculpts of the original box masters!" I actually wasn't expecting a complete overhaul of the rules and game. I remember seeing all the different waves of cards coming out for beta testing and I just couldn't keep up. I sold a big chunk of my Malifaux collection  just because I hadn't the interest or drive to continue playing like I used to, especially with the constant flux from the rules.

 

Up until recently I've been bit by the Malifaux bug again. Seeing the final rules for the game and how the game is more accomidating to new players has peaked my hopes for a stronger Malifaux community overall. With the re-release of everything in plastic, I can easily point players to great starting points for a faction or playstyle (or even dual faction boxes for some harder to pin down types), whereas with everything before a lot of the rules were very convoluted to the casual player.

[rancor709]

Change perhaps the only constant played a large factor in it. As did the beta itself some people don't like constantly having the apple cart flipped which is what a beta is. I can get a player up and running in a demo with 90% of all game knowledge they will need in 10mins. By turn 3 they are just playing the game. This has helped grow our group locally by significant marks. Were seeing an average of 6 players most casual nights and our tournament events have been between 12-18 players. There was a lot of politics that didn't help the matter as well. And was handled poorly by all involved

[Omenbringer]

Not all players left due to this;

 

 

Simple answer is people don't like change.

 

or even this;

 

There were a few stylistic issues as well. Some people loath the look of all the markers that scatter over the board now.

 

The game is very different now than it was.

 

While M2E may be perceived to have a lower barrier to entry, it has traded a lot that attracted the older crowd in order to gain that. Speaking for my self (one of the "old guard"), I miss the asymmetric strategies, expanded scheme pools and abhor the upgrades. I will play M2E but much prefer the 1st edition which I honestly consider a better experience.

 

Additionally, I would say a lot of the older group (and not just the few that got banned) left due to the change in community. Probably not the best description but the closest I can think of. There was a lot of vitriol at both extremes and a lot of the more moderate community found themselves pigeon holed and distanced on one side or the other. I would also offer that a lot of us felt like only opinions from newer players mattered.

 

Had I never played 1st Edition I would probably appreciate M2E more though I doubt I would have the appetite for M2E that I once did for 1st Ed. I wont argue that one is superior to the other because they really are different games, each with their own issues.

[notmikehill]

That's a very good observation, Omenbringer. I've been reading over some of the changes in the game and some I really like and others I find a bit odd. I like the general idea of an upgrade system, it sort of allows you to (in my eyes) create a "diet" malifaux experience which makes jumping in a little less complex. When complexity can be added, I could see MORE upgrades being made available at certain point thresholds, specific scenarios, etc.

 

Sacrificing complexity for simplicity has been one of the bigger gripes I've heard from some of the eldest of malifaux players I've played with. (remember Levi V1/V2/V3 cards, anyone?)

[rancor709]

Interesting omen. I played a ton of malifaux in 1.5 and have played since the initial beta of v2. I honestly like 2e better. Personally we always played shared strategies so to me there little difference there. The schemes were not balanced out equally and as such you d see the same schemes over and over again something that got old to the point we ban certain mixes. I still feel the same I did at the start of the upgrade concept. Neat idea going to be hell to balance as we move forward but lots of potential both good and bad.

I don't feel completely they are 2 different games and as such still feel I'm playing the same game I've been since I started. But I can see the perceptional loss and some of the quirks of the grand old game. But 2e scratches more of my gaming buttons than 1.5

[Ratty]

Interesting omen. I played a ton of malifaux in 1.5 and have played since the initial beta of v2. I honestly like 2e better. Personally we always played shared strategies so to me there little difference there. The schemes were not balanced out equally and as such you d see the same schemes over and over again something that got old to the point we ban certain mixes. I still feel the same I did at the start of the upgrade concept. Neat idea going to be hell to balance as we move forward but lots of potential both good and bad.

I don't feel completely they are 2 different games and as such still feel I'm playing the same game I've been since I started. But I can see the perceptional loss and some of the quirks of the grand old game. But 2e scratches more of my gaming buttons than 1.5

I have to agree to the end of M1.5 you often got the situation where the Opponent said I'm playing the Arcanists, and your thought was OK that will be a Coryphee and Power Ritual. I love the new random limited pool of Schemes it makes this less of an issue, you still get some choice over what Schemes you will be running but you don't get the same Schemes every game.

Also there is a whole section of Stories in the book which are Asymmetrical, and even have Faction Schemes available. And when the Strat + Scheme deck comes out there is another 4 strats for multiplayer games.

I think you have to break down the people that are playing, if you're running a tournament having a tighter more balanced pool and symmetric strats is good. But if you are playing a friendly the Stories can mix things up a bit and give you some different ways to play.

[Dracomax]

I was going to mostly say what Omenbringer said, so :+fate for that.

 

As for me, I like both. But I have friends who likle M1E better. They feel that upgrades make the game less of "I have this cool ability that is awesome one time in 30" and more "I crunched numbers, and this is the superior version of the crew for the strategy" Which they like less. Personally, I'm of mixed opinion on the upgrades, feeling some work perfect, and some are kind of not that good.

 

For the rest, I generally like the ruleset of M2E better, but the individual model rules better in M1E. M1E had a bit more character in the model rules than M2E, and better fluff/mechanic integration, but it was very unbalancing at times. I don't think anyone will deny that M2E is generally better balanced, but in doing so, some things were lost.

 

And during the great edition war, I kept getting pigeonholed to the "hate M2E" when I was the cheerleader for my group, simply because I tried to defend some of the side that didn't like it. There was a time when emotions really did run a bit too high, and things became polarized here. That didn't help anyone who still liked M1E want to continue here. In addition, there were some well respected people who, for lack of a better term, had a messy breakup with Wyrd as a company, and that made everything worse, with second hand knowledge, heresay, and sidetaking on that getting mixed with the editions wars... and it was basicly an unpleasant mess. It has gotten a thosuand percent better, but I still see signs of the rifts that were created then on the forums, and There are quite a few people who had been prolific posters/henchmen who still post very little, or left completely.

[DeleteAccount]

Another old guard here, much happier with M2. Coming from Spain, a lot of people just don't really dominate English enough to play ye olden giant block of text that was an M1 card (I still bloody remember Mei Feng... and god knows she was stupid simple once you started using her). Already from how the profiles were presented it was already pretty intimidating and god knows half the card could have been blank text in most situations. Also, after being screwed over in a tournament because of the asymmetry of strategies, I also tended to go with both using the same and even then, both with the same strategy could still be a huge joke like playing Deliver Message vs Kirai. The schemes chosen were always the same which was the comfort zone (scheme pool greatest rule change nobody pays attention to as far as I'm concerned).

 

Also, the loss of complexity from M1.5 is a red herring as far as I'm concerned since there really wasn't that much depth with all the complexity. Dreamer was stupidly complex and you needed to read a guide that I never even got a good grasp on to be able to sue the Chompy bits missile, yet once you finally understood the mechanics, there was no skill in it, it was just rinse and repeat. I can also echo this as a Kirai player in M1 where you tended to play the game by yourself spamming Shikome and destroying whatever you pleased. With M2 the complexity has been reduced in quite a chunk but still maintains a similar depth.

 

As for the upgrade hate, yeah, it's not perfect, but it does keep things clean, so as far as I'm concerned, that was a good call.

 

So yeah, I greatly prefer M2 and if you really want asymmetric shenanigans, there are always the story encounters which allow that asymmetric play.

 

I do feel some things are wonky in M2, mostly all the Ht related rules (I'm looking at you vantage point, but not the only one), some annoying interactions (obey to attack horror causer to get a paralyze really annoys me, and I still hate there being "infinite triggers") and would have appreciated a couple more generic Strategies outside of the big 4 and a fraction that we have now (though that can be easily fixed with an expansion down the line). But outside of those few quibbles, I'd say I'm mostly happy with the state of the game and I'm happy to notice that I have a hard time thinking of any master actually being bad which is a very long distance away from M1 and "LOL MARCUS, LOL SEAMUS".

[dgraz]

I'm with Rancor, Ratty, and Razhem (heh.....three R's) and agree with pretty much everything said by them. I actually like the Upgrade system......you can play a Vanilla game without them which makes teaching far superior to first.....or add them in for more complexity...which I think gives just as much complexity to the masters as first did...with the added bit of picking the right upgrades for the game.

 

I will also admit that some of the Upgrades are better than others and some are virtual auto-include (some of that was actually done on purpose....like Marcus' Limited's....you know you're taking one, but which one today? He was designed that way, but can still play well while learning without them.) Whereas some are virtually never taken.......however, when balance issues do arise, the upgrade system can help with that immensely......if you find a master or crew is under-performing, introduce a new upgrade for them to bring them up to par. It doesn't work quite so well in the other direction (if you find a model or crew that is too powerful) but you could still introduce a new generic upgrade to other factions to bridge that gap.....it doesn't need to be a hard-counter either....just a little something extra.

 

There are still some issues (I'm not blind).....I hate the Vantage point system....and some things are just wonky or still require clarification but there are a lot less of those things than there were in first. Massive erratas were needed in first....so far there have only been a couple minor ones in M2E and there are no major issues that I'm aware of that may need an errata down the road (no one is screaming about any massive broken-ness.....like old Hamelin, Dreamer.....ach pretty much most of Book 2). Granted, something might come up, but it's looking good so far.

[Hateful Darkblack]

The guy who got me into Malifaux in the first place (my awesome friend R) is one of these folks. I ran a demo game of M2E with him a few months ago and his response was "I don't think I want to relearn the system again."

It's legit! But M2E seems to be picking up a lot of new players and now that I know it, I vastly prefer it.

[dgraz]

It's legit! But M2E seems to be picking up a lot of new players and now that I know it, I vastly prefer it.

I struggled since 2009 to build a community........often struggling to just get a game on any given week......now we have a bunch of people and I'm still giving demos.

[Cornelious1424]

Like most have said, some people just dont like change. Every master/model is a complete re-write from their 1.5 incarnation, which I think threw most people for a serious loop during the beta. I think most people expetced a Malifaux 2nd Edition sooner than later but, with little changes to rules here and there and to bring sub-par models up in power/bring uber poweful masters back down to size. What we ended up with was a completely different game, in a sense. A lot of masters lost signature abilities in favor of another that was just better/had easier rules to play with. M2E has also lost a lot of it's "complexity" to become a much more simple game to play and understand. Some people liked the fact that every model had many little key abilities/triggers. If you look at the 1.5 card for the Day Dream, it has like somewhere around 12-13 rules listed on it...ITS A 2SS TOTEM!! Most minions/totems only have about 5-8 rules and abilities listed now, such a huge contrast. Edition changes can be hard on the "old guard". I for one used to be a devote GW (mostly WFB) player, but I haven't played a game in over a year and a half now due to edition changes. It's going to happen. In my opinion, its a much better game, you just can't convince everyone!

[DeleteAccount]

I struggled since 2009 to build a community........often struggling to just get a game on any given week......now we have a bunch of people and I'm still giving demos.

This is pretty much my scenario too now. I organized 3 tournies with 1-0 people coming, now we have managed to do one with 14 people which would have been madness before.

[Inquisitor Wall]

Our community has also grown both in number and devotion with the release of the new edition. While some of the models may have become less complex, I think the overall game play has become more complex, and much more of a tactical game. While I absolutely loved first edition, I did feel that a great deal of the complexity of the game was not actual complexity of game play, but unchecked balance issues and interactions that were getting unwieldy.

[Eldarion]

Well, I've only been around here, farming minis, for a few months, but...

 

Sometimes when i go digging around the web, looking for painting ideas for minis, I encounter blog posts where the author's all up-in-arms about something in the M2E beta.  There was one particular blog that had an incredible amount of anger (and arrogance - this guy seemed to think he was more important for Malifaux's continued success than Wyrd was).  If he was getting half the attention he thought he deserved, he probably chased away a lot of people that didn't care to deal with his anger.

[paradoxstorm]

The folks who introduced me to Malifaux seem to  have been content, perhaps even happy, with the transition to M2E--not that I have ever queried them much, but I never got any sense of disappointment or anger from them about the change.

 

But some people do not deal well with change.

 

A less sinister reason for dropping out at transition is that you were not that into the game in the first place.  Maybe there was little/no community for you to play with.  Maybe  you had lost interest.  Maybe the art and back story got your attention but you never really enjoyed the game.  Whatever, when the game itself makes a major transition that is a good time to exit with a ready made excuse.

[Dracomax]

I wish people would stop acting like it was simply "change is bad, dur" reaction. The fact is, many who who left simply liked second edition less than first edition, for their own reasons. Some of them had adverse reactions to change, sure, but Most of them that I've interacted with either didn't care all that much, or have since returned. The people who left for good, for the most part, weren't against any change; many of them wanted a new edition, simply to re-balance, and clean up rules. They just did not like the direction of the new edition.

 

That being said, I don't suppose this could get closed before¹ it becomes another "people who left are dumb, if you don't like M2E, then your opinion is wrong thread?" We had too many of those at the time, and it really hurt my impression of the community, at least, and I suspect many others don't come to the forums because of it, even if they continue to play the game.

 

¹not saying it is there now, just that I can see some of it starting the same paths, and don't particularly want to follow it again....that rabbit hole goes nowhere good.

[Mister Shine]

Space Pirates

 

Space Pirates kidnapped a small portion of the community and took them to 1st Edition Island. Thread Over.

[Utterkhaos]

lol i loved the civil discussion, i have played malifaux since rising powers and i do like m2e. more my community has doubles demos are 200% easier, but i agree the upgrades can be wonky ( im looking at you 10t generics) . Also as we entered storm of shadows the masters in 1.5 started to be walls of text witch as a guy who runs alot of convention demos was very intimidating to new players. people i know who stopped playing at 1.5 stopped because they didn't like the markers and they felt that without the asymmetric scheme pool and large scheme pool the game lost some of its oomph.

 

also i saw the space pirates....it was horrible