Tara, the Awesome Master who's is also a Failure!

[necroon]

 

also its really no big deal to put on any new tara crew models a little rule saying "may always be taken by tara regardless of faction"

I'd still rather we do this with a keyword: that is in-line with how some models already hire out of faction models. The precedent is already there. In 1.5 A lot of cards had clutter on them from trying to be worked into (our out of) existing summoning abilities or hiring restrictions and it was messy. 

 

Come on, how long was anybody really expecting that holiday to last?

I was hoping for a year myself but I may have been unrealistic in that regard. 

[Vanilla_Dice]

I personally think the only model that needs work is Karina, even if it's just to drop down in cost or to increase her chance to summon Marshall's.

Tara herself I've never had a problem with, and my standard list usually involve 2 void wretches, a death marshall, nothing beast. Plus others to flavour

[Drool_bucket]

As I've said other places I have no issues with Tara.  I do agree that she is very Upgrade dependent, but that can be said about most Masters.  I wouldn't think of taking the VIks without Sycronized Slaying, Fury, Mark or Sisters in Spirit.... 

 

This said, I absolutely love her playstyle because it is so different from my other Outcast Masters.  I liken her to 1.5 Colette in many regards, but instead balanced within the M2e world.

 

As for her crew I have zero complaints about Wretches, those guys are extremely solid 4ss models and if I didn't love my Desp Merc models so much I would use them in other Outcast crews.

 

That only leaves Karina and the NB.

 

Karina is painful, nothing else to say.  If i was in charge in the next book that features new models I would move the story forward and have Karina "remember more" and become her Henchwoman and gain back some nice Resser feeling to her that includes summoning Death Marshalls.  As for now, she either needs an errata or a strong upgrade.  This said, I do love my Malifaux Child with Tara so they could let her lie and I would be fine.

 

Now, the NB.  His problem is simple.  He forces the player to invest too much energy to get the most out of him.  And by energy I mean worrying about his placement, cards in hand and the opponent's threats (to maximize Incorporeal) to be worth 10ss.  Just look to many other 10ss models within the line and they are often ridiculously self-sufficent and more of an anchor than a liability.  Lazarus, the SAS, Rusty and Taelor for instance.  I see the NB more like Hans or Sue, really amazing in some situations, solid in many and in some cases he falls on his face.  Well, Hans is only 8ss.

 

But, I think the fix is really easy for the NB.  Give him a better upgrade, much like they are doing with the Samurai and Archers.  But again, I wouldnt complain if they didn't because the NB still has a place in my Crew lists, they are just very specific as to when.

 

I play five of the Outcast Masters almost exclusively.  (VS, Viks, Levi, Hamelin and Tara) This includes competitive play.  I do not feel that Tara is the least of them.  (I reserve that for Hamelin) She is an important part of my Outcast toolbox when playing Malifaux and I disagree with the assumption that she "needs work" or is "not good enough."  Come to Boston and I'll show you!

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Yeah I think that it really won't take much to really fine tune the crew. Karina is probably the only model I realy don't like. I never take her. I tried and just don't like her. The NB is still a cb 7, 3 AP, 2/5/7 monster. If between him and Karina they had one unique upgrade each that added something to the bury mechanic then it would be so much better.

[Kadeton]

The only issue I've seen with the Nothing Beast is the same as all Incorporeal models - if the opponent brings lots of ways to get around Incorporeal's damage reduction, they're really bad, and if the opponent doesn't bring anything, they're super good. Incorporeal has to be one of the hardest abilities to balance, and sadly the NB got the short end of that particular stick. Killjoy does most of what he does, and way more reliably for the price.

[Tuttleboy]

I like Tara and her Wretches a good bit, but hate Karina as she is. I would possibly take her at 4 SS, but would more likely take another flea. I always enjoy using Death Marshall's with her, but have started to leave the Nothing Beast out of her crew more often than not. I wish he had magical extension. I think he'd go from occasional to a usually take. I need to give her a go as a Resser next time I break her out.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

The only issue I've seen with the Nothing Beast is the same as all Incorporeal models - if the opponent brings lots of ways to get around Incorporeal's damage reduction, they're really bad, and if the opponent doesn't bring anything, they're super good. Incorporeal has to be one of the hardest abilities to balance, and sadly the NB got the short end of that particular stick. Killjoy does most of what he does, and way more reliably for the price.

 

I think that comes down to leverging your assets. If your opponent has a lot of magic damage then you got to play against it. Keep the NB buried and safe until its time to drop him. Malifaux does have a lot of paper/scizz/rok! Which isn't a fault really, you get to build your crew after knownign your enemy faction and objectives. You just need to get more used to what the other crews bring. If I was playing Tara and my opponent anounced Arcansists, I might not rely on incorporeal models. If they announced Neverborn, then I think my beasty would be alright. But, yep some times you'll get caught with your pants down and be playing against criid. In which case, you'll be relying on the def 9 lol ;D

 

But if you face criid, just throw Tara at her, unbury the NB and activate him inside Criids melee. That'll shut her down pretty good.

[Hateful Darkblack]

This weekend, I was playing against a Tara player with Leveticus and won 10-3. While thinking and talking about the game afterward, my opponent and I came to the shocking conclusion that he could have beaten me if he had only hired Karina.

 

(Giving Fast to Karina and three Void Wretches would have meant Burning and three focused attacks against Leveticus while he was buried, which would have killed him for good and gotten full Assassinate VP.)

 

I was surprised about that!

[Raynair]

This weekend, I was playing against a Tara player with Leveticus and won 10-3. While thinking and talking about the game afterward, my opponent and I came to the shocking conclusion that he could have beaten me if he had only hired Karina.

 

(Giving Fast to Karina and three Void Wretches would have meant Burning and three focused attacks against Leveticus while he was buried, which would have killed him for good and gotten full Assassinate VP.)

 

I was surprised about that!

Well, except that you don't HAVE to bury Leveticus. Without his whole death / rebirth cycle, he is still a force to be reckoned with. You might have had to play a little more conservatively, but the fact that you could have not ever buried Leveticus (except for maybe once or twice in a dire situation) is a counter to Tara's tactics.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Well, except that you don't HAVE to bury Leviticus. Without his whole death / rebirth cycle, he is still a force to be reckoned with. You might have had to play a little more conservatively, but the fact that you could have not ever buried Leviticus (except for maybe once or twice in a dire situation) is a counter to Tara's tactics.

 

It's Tara. She can bury Leveticus, which is like killing him only he doesn't heal!

 

Or her Death Marshalls can.

[Hateful Darkblack]

That said, I really am still kind of hoping that the Avatar Tara Upgrade includes some sort of Karina buff somehow.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Yeah Karina is remarkly unremarkable. She's a 5 stone enforcer totem with no special upgrade options. I think this gives her the perfect set up to get interesting. Oh! How about limited upgrade for her or something that sets up some place style changes to the crew? Or just one, that's fine. Just something that plays to what she is and makes her desirable. Let's brain storm, what does karina need to be good?

[Hateful Darkblack]

Some ideas for things that Karina could have as Upgrades that would increase her power and synergize with her Crew:

 

• Pine Box. This might be a little too much, but would definitely give her great utility and synergize well with the Crew.
• +2 Ml with her Bash attack against Fast models.
• A trigger on Peacebringer that gives a negative twist to resist Glimpse the Void. (to set up other models for the bury attack)
• A Tactical action to put a Scheme Marker in base contact with a Fast enemy model within range.
• Sacrifice a friendly model to pull the Red Joker from your discard pile back into your hand.

 

EDIT: Oh! Or Avatar Tara's Obliteration's Pull could give a positive twist to both Tara and Karina! A positive twist to Karina against models with Conditions would make her a lot better, but wouldn't significantly break Avatar Tara. And it's still in a mutable state right now!

[Math Mathonwy]

I think that those suggestions aren't going near far enough to make her worth the five stones. Unless you meant implementing all of them in which case the power level would be about right but she would be insanely cluttered.

+2 Armor, and the ability to bury NB when it dies within 8" and heal it for one would be my off the cuff suggestion.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

ehhhh... i'm not for recursive qualities. There is almost...almost...too much recursion in malifaux now. It'd have to be like 6" or maybe 4" and it would have to require some kind of work. Like, if a buried enemy model is killed then summon NB with half wounds or something.

 

Karina could benifit from maybe a ranged wp debuff. Range 12" Ca 5, enemy model suffers minus wp flips for the rest of the turn. Or, to borrow from old levi. Give her a 0 action that puts up a 6" cloud, no resist, that puts enemy models at negative flips for simple duels. I think that one ability, put on an upgrade for 1 stone, would be perfect!

[Math Mathonwy]

ehhhh... i'm not for recursive qualities. There is almost...almost...too much recursion in malifaux now. It'd have to be like 6" or maybe 4" and it would have to require some kind of work. Like, if a buried enemy model is killed then summon NB with half wounds or something.

That would be fun, but it wouldn't be powerful enough. Still, I do like the basic idea a lot. 

 

Karina could benifit from maybe a ranged wp debuff. Range 12" Ca 5, enemy model suffers minus wp flips for the rest of the turn. Or, to borrow from old levi. Give her a 0 action that puts up a 6" cloud, no resist, that puts enemy models at negative flips for simple duels. I think that one ability, put on an upgrade for 1 stone, would be perfect!

She would be six stones with the durability of a wet paper bag.

To "repair" her, the upgrade would need to be worth three stones or so while only costing one stone.

[Bengt]

I think it would be fluffy if the Nothing Beast had an upgrade with a defensive trigger that summons Void Wretches. 

[rancor709]

Agreed Bengt. Something like when this model suffers sever DMG it may discard 2 cards and summon a void wretch that suffers half a ads that cannot be reduced

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

Summoning VWs does seem like the only way to really make them worthwhile. But, the NB doesn't really need much, I think him not being a henchman like in beta was kind of the biggest issue. I looked at a lot of master, Lynch, Zorida, Dreamer, Victoria, Hoffman, and they all have a big fluffy hencman. Tara doesn't have one, and that's fine and all, but compare the NB to Bad juju who is 8 stones, henchman, same damage track, and virtually impossible to kill if there is swampfiend on the board (of course tha tdoes make him 10 stones). I feel like when NB was a henchaman he was fine at 10ss. Now he's an enforcer, I think he could have been 9 stones (maybe 8 but we'd probably loose casting expert for flurry or something). Ha! Give him an upgrade that makes him a henchman jk.

Karina and NB (and the crew) would really benifit from some kind of bury buff. Ways of getting models to fail that duel.

[Malicte]

Karina is very definitely inadequate in my mind, and a lot of other people have pointed out reasons as to why.

 

Now, I like Tara as a master alone.  I think she has a lot of neat tricks, though I'd definitely shuffle around some abilities between her card and various upgrades to be in a better place and make her a little less upgrade-mandatory.

 

Wretches are very solid units for 4 stones, and I use them in many of my outcast crews.

 

The sticking point for me is the Nothing beast.  10 stones for a 3 AP model is a good start.  He's an enforcer, which in faction draws a pretty quick comparison to Bishop.  Ok, fine.  3 AP is admittedly very good and he has the possibility to dump out a lot of damage, particularly if you drop him out at the end of a turn and then win initiative.  That said, what the NB brings to a crew is killy.  This is a fine thing to bring and many very excellent models do so.  However, when you look at a minimum damage of 2 combined with Tara's own pretty heavy need for mid-high cards to fuel her abilities, it can actually be difficult to put out a worthy amount of damage for cost.  If you hit weak damage 3 times, you may or may not kill 5-6 stone models.  You won't kill anything of much value with only 6 wounds.  I understand that dropping 21 is also possible, but it's fairly unlikely without holding a very good hand and being willing to spend it.  

 

His fragility is one thing.  Incorporeal can help, but realistically because Tara really does need to hold a few cards his Df is probably going to be middling, and he is deceptively easy to kill.  As a viks player who runs a lot of Bishop, I'm used to this and I accept it.  You need to protect those models somehow, and for the NB that's by burying it.  Fine.

 

But the fact that it has a weak damage of 2 on a model meant for killing things?  That means the NB just isn't going to see the tabletop in a competitive game for me.  Not with better, similarly costed options available in faction, both Outcast and Resser.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Yep, I strongly believe he should get one of the following:

-point reduction

-durability increase

-weak damage increase

 

Otherwise, there are tons of better options in the faction, and the NB has basically no use outside of Tara's crew.

[Tuttleboy]

I think it would be kinda cool to see NB a Df/Wp trigger that says something like "When this model takes 2 or more damage it may discard 2 cards or 1 soulstone to summon a Void Wretch within 4". The summoned Void Wretch may take 2 damage which may not be reduced to remove the slow condition."

 

Possibly it would need a caveat that says it only works when NB is below 1/2 wounds.

[Durza]

I like the idea someone had a while ago, that was when he takes a hit, summon a void wretch at 0 health, then heal it equal to the damage dealt to him.

[EntrepeNinja]

I like the idea someone had a while ago, that was when he takes a hit, summon a void wretch at 0 health, then heal it equal to the damage dealt to him.

 

That is kinda cool, but maybe infringing on Desolation Engine territory a bit. I understand that when the engine dies it turns into aboms, but the idea that the big creature is made up of little creatures is already in the Deso's bag. Plus, it would be the question, how many wretches would you need to turn it back into a nothing beast?

 

As much as I hate the idea of postulating changes to a model/crew well after both waves of the beta are done (read; I don't hope for much, as errata of this nature isn't going to be common)... I love the idea of giving Karina an ability that brings back some of her ressur flavor. Whether that means undead versions of the death marshals or void wretch summoning or whatever...

 

I think I disagree about the nothing beast- I think that he has a lot of strengths that make him a unique beater, and should be a choice more than an assumption for Tara. For instance, when you play Mei Feng, you don't say to yourself, "I'm playing the rail golem literally every time." When you play Hoffman, you don't auto include a peacekeeper- The beater/enforcer slot should be a choice, not a forgone conclusion. And he's absolutely baller against spirits. If you're going up against a living crew, maybe you bring a Rogue Necromancy (Ressur) or killjoy (Outcast).

 

Though he does fold like a napkin. Maybe a touch tougher. But a ca melee attack is totally solid, and what makes him unique.

 

ENinja

[SpiralngCadavr]

Karina could be fixed with a 0-pt upgrade, at least to the point that she'd be playable.

 

Yes, the theory of the NB as a choice and not auto-include is nice, but the problems with your theory are twofold:

 

1-it's very poor outside of a Tara list. It's pretty fragile, and extremely fragile for its cost against many lists (like anyone with a decent spellslinger), which is really only compensated for with Tara's bury mechanic. The other forms of bury are too unreliable to be very effective.

 

2- even in a Tara list, it takes a lot more work to take advantage of its talents* than just taking a strong beater. I mostly just take him as a thematic choice or a challenge. If playing in any competitive setting, I'd probably avoid taking it.

 

The fact that he has cool and unique abilities doesn't make him good.

 

*this is largely the problem with much of Tara's crew, in general