Nagi21

Rulebook literally has a line making it private already before GG released.

The 3e rulebook is as quoted here: "Players may look through their own Discard Piles but may not slow the game down while doing so." (pg. 8.) If both players could look through either discard pile, it would not say their own. Similarly, the information in it is not public as otherwise, a player could simply ask his opponent "is this card in there?" for every card desired (which obviously would slow the game down beyond the scope of that rule). This also overrides the default public information rule in GG. Now that being said a player is free to answer his opponent if he asks "did you flip a joker earlier?", but he is under no obligation to do so (particularly in a tournament game).

The new GG states that all information is public unless specifically said otherwise (i.e. your deck and your hand). Discard piles cannot be altered, and their owner may look through their discard pile at any time provided it does not slow the game by doing so (rulebook pg. 8). The only caveat is that you must reveal all cards being discarded when they are discarded (no stacking to hide cards).

As much as I would love that, I already see the counterargument being the "this model may treat the selected action" on the doppelganger. Although my counterpoint would be why else would you leave it "until end phase" rather than putting "until end of activation". To which the answer would be, it can still be used for Obey and Issue Command, which I don't have an argument for. Technically, other than that point it looks perfectly legal. It also wouldn't be any good because "Just like you" would be casting off of the doppelganger's 7, reduced to 5, and Mold requires 10m plus cost... so a rougarou would cost a 13 mask, a knight 12 mask, and beyond that it's not AP or cost efficient by any stretch.

Declared is the wrong word. The aura would trigger when the condition is met. So Wrath would give out the sin token if it is damaged before moving, but not if it's moved before damage (usually moving is after damage since most of those are after succeeding). Damage would happen after the damage reduction step (step 3), which at the end is when "when resolving" happens (since damage reduction to 0 means the model is not considered damaged). So the aura would be triggered on damage before any movement trigger effects. Alp would happen as well, since damage flips happen before non-immediate triggers, unless an immediately trigger effect moved it or the Alp out. Basically damage -> when resolving -> damage application -> killed -> removed -> after succeeding/unmarked triggers. Aura conditions trigger on specific things.

The aura effect would be declared at some point in that damage track, since at some point auras need to be declared due to the multiple aura rule. If it's moved before that step then no it would not apply. If it's moved after that then it would move regardless. Moving into concealing terrain wouldn't matter since the attack flip has already been resolved (it must have been resolved because triggers on unsuccessful attacks do not trigger, so this is a given).

The sequential effects section would mean that at the when resolving phase, you would do everything past "when resolving" on into thorns one immediately after the other (both of which would happen before model removal in step 6d). Otherwise you break the sequential effects rule by doing the effect in the middle, then going back and doing the effect at the start, then jumping over to the end and doing that effect. Obviously this is not 'sequential' in any way shape or form.

I disagree on your premise that the ". Then," is a seperate thing in and of itself. The trigger resolves at the "When resolving" step... that being the entire trigger. At this point it would resolve in order, and then we would move on to step 3. The idea that half a trigger is supposed to resolve in a completely different phase is entirely based on the semantics of the English language and the Oxford comma... Basically, you resolve the whole trigger. Otherwise we are going to have a lot of triggers that are going to be resolving different effects (and I don't just mean movement), in different phases... and I'm not enough of a lawyer to keep up with all that paperwork.

I don't know why you guys are saying Mimic can copy Gorar's ability. It has to copy an ability of a model with a higher cost. Mimic is 4, Gorar is 2. Also they fixed search the ruins so markers don't count anymore.

I like Hoody with Pandora a lot because ride with me lets him get Candy up the board extremely quickly, and it also provides a lot of reactive mobility to a fairly slow crew with Pandora. The only issue I've run into with him is he has to not die... which is not a given since hard to wound only keeps the damage at a minimum, not at nothing. Still... having him and an unactivated Candy in the middle of the enemy's crew at the start of Turn 2 is pretty hilarious (in the good way this time). Edit: I also like him vs crews with lots of cheap models (i.e. summons), like sandeep or any kind of rezzer (asami notwithstanding), because you can guarantee the wide swing trigger with your Fate Tokens, and that's a 1/3/4 hit on anything around (I don't like him vs gremlins because they're too shooty to keep him alive long).

Killjoy would still not count for either Reckoning or Take prisoner (if killed by allies), since EOG happens after the turn.

So my main issue with this isn't that it requires a lot of resources to pull off. My issue is, when you pull this off, what exactly are you going to have left over to actually commit effective murder? Not to mention into who? You mentioned Yan Lo, but he'll be back twice over and you'll be dead by then. Any resser worth their salt (other than maybe Asami) will live a turn one alphastrike from just Hina and Nekima. Guild will just turn around and murder you where you stand in the two turns between activations, unless it's Nellie. Arcanists will love you in their deathballs, since Collette will bail and you'll be completely controlled, and Rasputina will activate the second you show up and drop as many ice pillars as literally will fit. Gremlins will just squeal away and shoot you with their boomsticks. And outcasts are usually the ones trying to get to you first so you've just taken away half the work for them.

Ancient Pact I think looks nice but it's kinda meh unless you stick it on something dirt cheap... and unfortunately even my cheap models I want doing things pretty close to the enemy so now I have a 3 or 4 ss model running around with 5/6 stones worth of value. Risky. Eldritch magic I love on pandora, since it allows her to remove two conditions from anything (even her own stuff). Now if I could just like pandora into a lot of matchups... Inhuman Reflexes is known as Butterfly Jump around here. It's so good, particularly on Mature Nephilim (because you get the full card as a minion), but it's found a home on Ted too so he doesn't get bogged down or focused. Usually I only take one cause I only have one thing it needs to be on.

Nah turn 2 growing is much better because at that point you have a BBS with a grow marker, a tot with a grow marker, and a young with a grow marker. At that you can either play turn 2 with a half grown young, a BBS into mature, and a tot into either young or mature. Or flip the script and make the bbs the mature after putting a 2nd focus on everyone turn 2, make the tot a second bbs or young, and make a mature out of the young. Either way turn 2 is the better play to go screaming into the lategame (also I need to test 2 bbs lists). See the problem is I don't need much to take down something tough (or at least nothing I'm seeing adversary pay off for. I'm not saying a single wicked doll is a bad option (I can think of a lot of good uses), but I'm looking at it from the position of this is a three point, non-insignificant model that I can bring four of... what happens if i bring four of them? I don't like a single hound, I like a lot of them. Same thought process that went "Hmm... I wonder what would happen if I brought 12 rats as hamelin..."

I don't plan around certain masters, but factions as a whole, since that's what you end up with in competitive malifaux i.e. tournaments. So with that in mind see below (also I'm not including Marcus as he kinda runs similar to Nekima with a few tweaks, and I've less matchup experience with him, and Lucius is... really not neverborn anyway right now): Guild: Into guild there are no particularly HARD counters, but you have to be aware of what the strat and scheme pool will look like to avoid ending up in a bad matchup. For instance on a corrupted idols game is likely going to run into Nellie or Lucius, which means you may have to deal with your own models murdering yourself (bad for nekima, meh for Pandora). The hardest counter in the matchup from what i've seen is a tie between Perdita vs Nekmia (you gotta be on point with your positioning and don't have much room for error), and Sonnia vs Titania (Sonnia will end up negating most of your concealment if you're on fire... and you will be on fire). Overall I've had moderate success overall into guild even in some questionable matchups. Resurrections: This one is pretty tricky. I would avoid Dreamer into Ressers, but the neverborn ladies don't have a particularly fun time into a lot of ressers because of the issue that there are so MANY models to kill, and they usually have hard to wound on most things. Seamus isn't a bad matchup into most, but the constant repositioning on him makes slow crews like Pandora suffer in a lot of pools. Von Schtook is also one that would be bad to bring pandora into, but I find that Nekima can play into him pretty well from a point scoring standpoint (usually...). This is also the reason I wouldn't bring dreamer blind. Academic Zeal works on your nightmares regardless of how cheap and easy they are to kill, and unless you're playing into reckoning (which I don't usually like dreamer into anyway), you're gonna have a bad time. I couldn't tell you about Yan Lo cause I've not seen anyone use him (at least in this faction), and Reva is workable with all of them. McMourning and Jack are good matchups to bring pandora into (Jack has higher wp but his minions are free game, and the condition removal makes up for it), but getting bit with Von Schtook leads to "Does he know that I know that he knows that I know" territory of analysis. Kirai... ehh... I don't love or hate anything in particular about her matchup more than the others. It's ressers... it's gonna suck regardless. Arcanists: Fun territory time. Marcus is a non-factor as he is straightforward and there isn't anything that particularly counters someone else. It's all about the minions he brings on this one and at that point you're committed. Ironsides is a rough time for Nekima, as 1v1 she will break you, so if you pick into that matchup you're going to need to find some range to make that work (I recommend Zoraida as a second master for that). Sandeep is the same issue with ressers in that you'll be dealing with 14 or 15 models around turn 2 & 3. I don't like Titania in that matchup... or at least a normal Titania (you'll likely need a rider in this one). Pandora is great vs Kaeris and Sandeep (and with Eldritch magic any of them can make things work vs either... somewhat), because of constant condition removal, but you have to watch for Collette because Pandora doesn't move much to react to the everchanging board state that is the star theatre. Mei Feng I couldn't tell you cause I've literally never seen her played... ever. Hoffman... I've seen played, no experience playing vs him though. Joss is bad. Seriously whatever gets near Joss is going to die so if you bring slow movers or Nekima... be careful. As for Rasputina... Pandora is good because poltergeist removes pillars aoe, but you have to be aware of the irreducible damage on the blasts (no incorporeal). I like everyone into Raspy really, some more than others. Neverborn: Hmmm... Each matchup in here can (mostly) be played around, but you have to be aware of a second master zoraida if you bring heavy beaters. Also Zoraida has issues vs Titania because the concealment of trees can force negative obey flips (no cheating), so something to remember. Outcasts: So... yea... oh boy. Jack we already covered. Zipp into Nekima is hilarious but I'd play it. Pandora into Viktoria lacks mobility hard, and then there's the Zipp and Hamelin that cause problems (why Hamelin is wp 7 and Pandora 6 I'll never f***ing know...), and Parker is better at most schemes she wants to play into so... yea don't really bring pandora unless you know it's something you personally like. Nekima plays well into a lot of this... although Tara causes trouble removing all her good models so keep your soulstones close with that. Titania is a poor choice into Leveticus but you can (kinda) predict when he'll show up based on the strat/scheme pool. Just leave the knights at home when he comes out to play if you get caught in that one. Dreamer is good into a lot of these matchups because he can match the mobility of most of them, and hits pretty hard, but you have to be careful vs Parker because he will EAT YOUR SOUL(stones) ALIVE!!!! Ten Thunders: Ok so here's the thing. I like Nekima into every single one of these matchups (some more than others), except Misaki. And I really, REALLY don't like Nekima into Misaki. If you get caught on the wrong end of the Katanaka gunline... I really hope that table is bolted down and you know the cover rules like the back of your hand. Good luck to ya. That being said, Titania is good vs most of them (no idea on Yan Lo), particularly if the enemy isn't careful and overestimates his position (although this is not a given with Shen Long as that's more or less where he wants to be). Asami you'll want to bring the big boys as 3 Jorogumo is a non-zero possibility within the first two or three turns. Pandora has her usualy mobility limiting issues so unless the strat scheme pool is extremely kind, i'd leave her at home. Zoraida and Dreamer are both good in most of these as they are either mobile enough to keep up with the enemy or able to use their own plans against themselves, so no issues with either of them. Bayou: Leave pandora at home (noticing a theme?). The reason here is very simple. You will lose to bushwackers and rooster riders. If you know going in it's going to be Zoraida bayou then you can bring her, but if there is the slightest chance of there being Mah Tucket, don't even consider her. Bayou games need mobility more than anything else. Nekima can work vs a lot of those, because the bayou is full of corpses, particularly Somer (don't dive the pigapult... it's a trap). My bayou 3e experience is pretty limited due to lack of play (thankfully...), but Pandora blind is impossible as far as I can tell. Overall our major counters are more models, and guns... lots of guns. Also while I said Misaki was bad but Perdita wasn't, that was in the grand scheme of looking at the counter matchups in the faction. Perdita is pretty based on strat/scheme (not that she's bad, but there are better choices into certain pools on paper), which allows you to somewhat predict her, while Misaki is very good in most if not all due to the mix of hypermobility and murder, which leads to surprise moments.

I wouldn't go that far but getting a tot into a young is a pretty easy turn 1 affair with a bbs, since the sac knife can get a corpse out with ANY mask (perfect use for those low masks early), and a blood hunter means turn 1 growth aplenty (you just sacrifice a bit of time up the board, which may or may not be a bad thing). I've found the issue with my grow lists aren't that they aren't growing, but that I'm limited in the model count for Matures. The hounds make great scheme runners because here's the important thing... they're 3 stones. Is a young better than them moving around and scheming? Yes. Can I have the young in 3 (or 4) places at once to do so? Nope. Hounds are great for things like outflank and ley line because they can be in multiple places at once. And yes they may die, but they require your opponent to put models able to kill them in weird places (they aren't THAT squishy in pairs and their attack is aaaaactually pretty good for 3 stones). Dolls are ok but there's a couple things. Firstly their free action movement is reliant on other models so they can't really go about doing their own thing. Secondly the corpse marker thing everyone's aware of. Don't get me wrong, they're a fine support model, but not a scheme running solo model (although I would send hounds in pairs to scheme so... there's that). Hounds are very good for a few reasons. With a second hound, EVERY duel gets a +1 per hound. This includes attacking, which is base 5 already. Hounds in pairs are def 5 attack 6... which is close to a lot of models that are twice as expensive. Secondly, their attacks are great when they can close (which is an issue with the dolls as well). 1/3/4 with crit strike means a 3 point model is pushing 2/4/5 (that's basically an autumn knight for comparison), and with a friend that's a stat 6 attack. Seriously, I've had these things kill Hinamatsu before, they can be deadly (not always but the threat is there). Thirdly, they are excellent tarpits, in that they force your opponent to use AP on them due to hunting partner and annoying. A 3ss model that your opponent has to react to and burn precious actions on means they're not shooting at your important models like the young and mature, not to mention it leaves those juicy corpses. Finally, the hounds also have black blood which A) synergizes well with nekima because of pustule (Hayreddin in particular likes a puppy around) and 2) remember, you can attack your own models. Anything that is one or two wounds away from dying can be killed easily by two hounds by just attacking one and splattering blood. Would hounds be so good if they were four stones? No, but you could consider them. At 3, ignore them at your own risk.

Small bug: When creating a Pandora crew and hiring Kade, you can hire unlimited Teddy's even past soulstone limits.

Uh... so they wrote out and "squat'd" the original 1st edition neverborn master. Which I just so happen to have half my collection based around since they were a tiny mini company... What the fuck Wyrd?!

Can you elaborate on that...?

Lilith I've found is very good against almost anything provided the player using her knows what he's doing. I hate when people say she's an easy master. Technically they're right in that Lilith is one of the easiest to pickup and play decently, but that's not where her strength lies. She's very adaptable to literally 9/10 situations with the right crew around her. That said, I've found two things she's particularly weak against are summoning Ressers (particularly Nico and Kirai... Seamus is a fun matchup though :P), and gremlins. Summoners, as it's been said, need to be dealt with quickly or you'll lose most of the time. Gremlins are a small nightmare, as they do massive amounts of damage to your squishy crew, and have a tendency to out activate you by two or three models. A fears given form enforcer like barbaros can buy you a turn with tangle shadows against something like Som'er, but against something like Ophelia you're going to get gunned down 90% of the time by Lenny giving free thinking luck (there's a reason there's a vocal minority questioning the balance of said faction). All in all aside from a few situations you should always be in control as Lilith. While she doesn't require the precise control of someone like Colette, she is best as a control master, instead of the quick beatstick most new players use her as.

What I mean is that the wounds for those two extra summons have to come of existing models. Also when using Seishin to summon you give up some other very nice (0) on Kirai and Datsue Ba, it also requires 6 and 8. So on the first turn they used 6, 8, 9, 12, 13 to summon, 6, 8, 8, 9, 12 on the second. Also a 7 for each heal the Lost Love does, any crow for each heal from a Nurse, Kirai and Seishin didn't heal anything by the description. Some of those cards may have been top decked, but it's still pretty nice hands and using all of them for summons leaves nothing to cheat during combat. People seem to think summoners just pluck models from the ether; no, we spend master AP, stones, and cards to make this all work, and we have to get the spend the resource to make it work. When you're on the receiving end, it can seem overwhelming, but let me assure you, when a summoner starts with a crap hand in turns 1-2, it can be "that's the game, thank you for playing." Yes but on the receiving end when they get a remotely workable hand it can easily be "that's the game, thank you for playing."

Turn one they summoned two Seishin that turned into 3 models. Turn two was the same thing.

Seishin

Shikome and Hanged come in around 4 wounds. Black Blood is your friend here. Most Kirai crews will tend to operate in a ball. Hanged are hard to target, but it's not hard to target a Terror Tot in the midst of the other crew with Tuco or Angel Eyes and have the Terror Tot pulse black blood over everyone. Just a thought. A tot would die before killing anything off. It'd be better to simply shoot the targets. Also unless this happens quickly those are going to heal right back up.

It'd have to be between a full health Lilith dying to a Gremling slop hauler, or Taelor dying to the mechanical rider after doing literally zero damage.