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Rostislav

Your ideas how to play vs unstopable crew

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7 minutes ago, Rufess said:

It seems that we have a new great topic to discuss in the general forum: What is a well balance map to all kind of crew?

I know there is already some similar threads in both general forum and pull my finger, however the pics were out of function now. So maybe it is a good time to build a new thread to discuss the map and terrain under current meta and GG2018.

If you dtart that thread I'll dig up some pics.

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1 hour ago, Tris said:

And I understand that, but I have to say that`s a bit of information that would`ve helped very much right from the start ;)

 

So, Imo, the list is not the problem, it`s the tables - very much like Perdita used to dominate a lot of the early tournaments because open tables allowed you to just kill everything, with no place to hide - many players and TO´s adapted to that situation and so it changed :)

 

@Ludvig but there are many companies out there which produce crates and stuff like that, rocks and small walls are easily built, shouldn`t take much more than a weekend for several tables :)

I tarted looking around the shipping was pretty bad so it kind of got forgotten. Being a dad the days of entire terrain building weekends have gotten rarer, I prioritize hosting events. I'll try to ruwtle up some cash from the big gaming group I am part of and order in bulk so we can splatter a few tables with easily built boxes.

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2 hours ago, Myyrä said:

We like this stuff. It's affordable, durable, good looking and easy to transport and assemble. The same company also sells a wide range of other scatter terrain.

I was about to recommend them. They have a good range and are really good value. 

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46 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I tarted looking around the shipping was pretty bad so it kind of got forgotten. Being a dad the days of entire terrain building weekends have gotten rarer, I prioritize hosting events. I'll try to ruwtle up some cash from the big gaming group I am part of and order in bulk so we can splatter a few tables with easily built boxes.

Two years more and you can have her do all your terrain for you.

"This terrain looks like a three-year old made it!"

"Very astute!"

"But... all the glitter really takes me out of the experience!"

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1 minute ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Two years more and you can have her do all your terrain for you.

"This terrain looks like a three-year old made it!"

"Very astute!"

"But... all the glitter really takes me out of the experience!"

When I was building my table my niece and nephew started playing on it with some Lego men and furniture. I was about to tell them that wasn't what it was for, then I realised it would be a lie. 😀

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I forgot to take pics but on the board I played today the pigs would have had plenty of room to go bananas, probably even with double flame walls, so I guess I  hereby take back all my previous advice and kneel to the power of the pig! Nerf gremlins already! :D 

Edit: or give me your gremlins, either one is fine.

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I think this list is really interesting, but while that hand is really large, I don't know how pretty it's going to be in the order you give.  The crier's constant hand improvement is all going on with a hand of 5 cards, then in the last few activations you draw a ton of cards and off you go.  If you could find a way to get Somer's activation earlier in the cycle, this hand manipulation would be MUCH better.  I just can't think of an easy way to get there.  I could plausibly see this hand as 3 really amazing cards and 11 top decked whatever.

One part of the math I'm specifically stuck on though...

On 4/19/2018 at 3:03 PM, Rostislav said:

First pig was moved 2 + 4 +4 = 10"
Second pig was moved 2 + 4 = 6"

The 2" movement came from...  the Banjonista?   Their ability only moves "non-rooster gremlins".   Pigs don't qualify.

 

Back on topic, Nellie (or any other model with Incite from the other factions) could also cause this list all manor of trouble by forcing the lead warpig to activate early.  Since it's pushed 8 inches forward, it's entirely possible it's wandered outside the hog whisperers zone of containment, but not outside of charge range.

 

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I feel like this list has a ton of hard counters across various factions, since it relies so heavily on the charging Warpigs for damage delivery. Anything that shuts down charging or Warpigs (especially going after their Wp before they activate) is going to give it a rough time. Someone mentioned putting it up against their local expert Levy player - I feel like the most bog-standard Levy list (with Rusty Alyce and Ashes & Dust) completely and automatically shuts this entire mechanic down, just by passively existing. Lots of alternative counters in other Factions as well. It really seems to be the Guild that struggles with this the most.

It does feel like there are a few key pieces which, if removed, severely reduce the danger of the list. The bit where the Crier turns into a Gremlin and that Gremlin uses Drunk & Reckless - if you can get a shot off on that Gremlin at that point, just about anything will kill it, and you immediately deny 6 cards to the opponent's hand. Similarly, killing the Skeeter early will make it much more difficult to pull this whole thing off. Failing that, just aggressively pushing up to engage the Warpigs before they activate will drop their damage potential severely.

(A bit niche, but a McMourning list with some Nurses can just medicate those pigs with Hallucinogens or Uppers, locking them down completely for the entire turn. That's probably the hardest counter I can think of in the Guild.)

It's an interesting list, a bit too "all eggs in one basket" for my taste, but against an unsuspecting opponent I can see how it would be utterly devastating. It's sure generated a lot of discussion...

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7 hours ago, Clement said:

Back on topic, Nellie (or any other model with Incite from the other factions) could also cause this list all manor of trouble by forcing the lead warpig to activate early.  Since it's pushed 8 inches forward, it's entirely possible it's wandered outside the hog whisperers zone of containment, but not outside of charge range.

 

If it pushed 8" forward after starting in contact with the whisperer it should be exactly within 8" so you won't even need to measure. :)

4 hours ago, Kadeton said:

A bit niche, but a McMourning list with some Nurses can just medicate those pigs with Hallucinogens or Uppers, locking them down completely for the entire turn. That's probably the hardest counter I can think of in the Guild.

I'm still a bit hazy on how the ranges involved add up but supposedly the pigs can charge you five times from 20" away or something even if you put 6" of impassable terrain right in front of your models. The nurses have a pretty crappy range so it would be challenging to get them to where they need to be. A walk + ca is only 12" of threat for the nurse and I can't think of a way to push and activate the nurse in the same chain activation.

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2 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I'm still a bit hazy on how the ranges involved add up but supposedly the pigs can charge you five times from 20" away or something? The nurses have a pretty crappy range so it would be challenging to get them to where they need to be. A walk + ca is only 12" of threat for the nurse and I can't think of a way to push and activate the nurse in the same chain activation.

It's definitely something I'd need to experience on the table in order to see how the placement worked, and how close the pigs would normally get before starting their rampage. They have Wk 5, Cg 8 and 1":melee so they're not going to be more than 14" away without wasting their whole first activation. An additional quirk of the list is that the Warpigs either need to be within 2" of a Gremlin or more than 9" from the nearest friendly non-Pig in order to Walk, if there aren't any enemies within 9" - the positioning of models in the Gremlin crew would require a fair bit of practice, I think, and any attacks that move enemy models around are likely to disrupt that careful placement.

I don't think you'd need to push and activate the Nurse as a chain, though - one of the major issues with the setup is that the Warpigs lose a lot of their effectiveness if they go off "early", before all their buffs are in place and the extra cards are drawn. You should have quite a few activations available to do some counter-setup.

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The hog whisperer seems to be crutch while they are still near the crew since it has it's aura up to 8". After that Som'er Old major makes other pigs illegal targets for charges so the pig trio can go about their business as they please. A nudge on the pigs or whisperer to place them 9" from each other would lead to some confused shuffling or friendly charges. If this can be done after the whisperer has reactivated them it should be very rewarding even if the pigs can pick their lowest card against him.

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Feels like some people have forgotten Guild is more than just Nellie. Perdita could just kill one of the pigs from range if they wanted to try shenanigans like that. She might be able to get both if she gets some help from other models. She also has Obey, so she could send one of the pigs charging back to the Gremlin crew, potentially also leaving it outside Hog Whisperer's aura.

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5 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

The hog whisperer seems to be crutch while they are still near the crew since it has it's aura up to 8". After that Som'er Old major makes other pigs illegal targets for charges so the pig trio can go about their business as they please.

Yeah, that's a good example of what I mean about careful placement. The Hog Whisperer has to be deployed within 2" of both Warpigs and Old Major to pull this off, which probably means all three pigs lined up on the edge of the deployment zone, with the Whisperer behind them. Major then pushes both Warpigs 4" forward, and doesn't move. When he reactivates, he can walk forward up to 5", push one of the Warpigs 4", and presumably push the Whisperer towards himself... but he'll have to do that carefully, in a way that doesn't block LoS between the Whisperer and the lead pig, otherwise it will be subject to Set'er Off. That most likely means the front Warpig can't get the full benefit of the 4" push, because they'll need to be going partially sideways to see the Whisperer. A small nudge from the enemy at that point should put the Warpig out of LoS or range of the Whisperer, which would be bad news for Som'er, the Banjonista, etc.

Even if the Pork Whisper'n aura is maintained on both pigs, one of them is at most 4" outside its deployment zone, and the other is probably about 7". If you want to deny both pigs their entire first activation and the Major's aura, you just need to stay >22" away from the enemy deployment zone (>18" will deny at least one pig an activation). One round of charges each from the pigs is still very nasty, but it's not crew-destroying (they could get up to 6 attacks each, depending on how they choose targets), and the Gremlins don't really seem to have a plan for what to do if they don't slaughter the enemy crew beyond recovery on Turn 1.

Alternatively, the Guild really shouldn't have too much trouble projecting enough force to kill a Df 5 Wd 9 model that's just sitting 7-8" outside its deployment zone, waiting for the rest of its crew to do card-draw stuff.

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23 hours ago, looka said:

the most dangerous thing in this roster is the recklessness of his player) which can allow to deliver a pig at 26 inches for 1 action of the pig itself) preserving +
this is very dangerous) especially if you consider that this is impossible)

)) I think this line you even ignored) or did not believe

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11 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

Yeah, that's a good example of what I mean about careful placement. The Hog Whisperer has to be deployed within 2" of both Warpigs and Old Major to pull this off, which probably means all three pigs lined up on the edge of the deployment zone, with the Whisperer behind them. Major then pushes both Warpigs 4" forward, and doesn't move. When he reactivates, he can walk forward up to 5", push one of the Warpigs 4", and presumably push the Whisperer towards himself... but he'll have to do that carefully, in a way that doesn't block LoS between the Whisperer and the lead pig, otherwise it will be subject to Set'er Off. That most likely means the front Warpig can't get the full benefit of the 4" push, because they'll need to be going partially sideways to see the Whisperer. A small nudge from the enemy at that point should put the Warpig out of LoS or range of the Whisperer, which would be bad news for Som'er, the Banjonista, etc. 

Even if the Pork Whisper'n aura is maintained on both pigs, one of them is at most 4" outside its deployment zone, and the other is probably about 7". If you want to deny both pigs their entire first activation and the Major's aura, you just need to stay >22" away from the enemy deployment zone (>18" will deny at least one pig an activation). One round of charges each from the pigs is still very nasty, but it's not crew-destroying (they could get up to 6 attacks each, depending on how they choose targets), and the Gremlins don't really seem to have a plan for what to do if they don't slaughter the enemy crew beyond recovery on Turn 1. 

Alternatively, the Guild really shouldn't have too much trouble projecting enough force to kill a Df 5 Wd 9 model that's just sitting 7-8" outside its deployment zone, waiting for the rest of its crew to do card-draw stuff.

And what if Major takes saddle, and then pushes only one pig forward ~12", and then follows her, with the whisperer? 6+12+5+9(charge)=32, it's quite far.

And the second pig charges Somer, bowles him over 2 times, pushing 16+as far, as Somer can get with Loudest squeal(about 8" more). So, second pig gets 6+8+16 + 9(charge) = 39"

I mean, the way it explained in the first post is not the only way this roster can attack.

 

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The saddle doesn't push, it places, so Major gets great control over the whisperer placement.

That should mean Perdita can obey a charge against the whisperer provided she activates late enough to have the pigs moved forward. Doesn't work if she went too elite.

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12 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

That should mean Perdita can obey a charge against the whisperer

this will be an attack without +, which most likely will not lead to anyone's death

and even if it leads to it, it will simply bring the next 3 cards into the hand of the sommers

Edited by looka

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6 minutes ago, Platov said:

And what if Major takes saddle, and then pushes only one pig forward ~12", and then follows her, with the whisperer? 6+12+5+9(charge)=32, it's quite far.

And the second pig charges Somer, bowles him over 2 times, pushing 16+as far, as Somer can get with Loudest squeal(about 8" more). So, second pig gets 6+8+16 + 9(charge) = 39"

I mean, the way it explained in the first post is not the only way this roster can attack.

Totally, there are plenty of interesting possibilities!

Unfortunately, the further forward you push the lead pig, the easier it is for the enemy crew to respond and kill it before you can get started. And your Som'er-bowling pig has already burned one of its activations and left your Master way upfield and lacking either Wds or soulstones...

I'm sure there are lots of cool ways that this list can get across the board if it needs to, but they all have costs and consequences - and no matter what, if someone shuts down one Warpig in any way you've lost a huge amount of punch, and there's no backup plan. It's not a brainless list to play, is ultimately what I'm getting at, I suppose. You'd need to be clever and careful (and a little bit lucky) to make it work, because small positioning errors or enemy interference will wreck its delicate machinery.

I'd really like to see it on the table, honestly. It would be a really interesting challenge to pick it apart in actual play.

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6 minutes ago, Platov said:

And what if Major takes saddle, and then pushes only one pig forward ~12", and then follows her, with the whisperer? 6+12+5+9(charge)=32, it's quite far.

And the second pig charges Somer, bowles him over 2 times, pushing 16+as far, as Somer can get with Loudest squeal(about 8" more). So, second pig gets 6+8+16 + 9(charge) = 39"

I mean, the way it explained in the first post is not the only way this roster can attack.

 

Ooh I like the Sommer trick, that's a nice touch I hadn't thought of. 

There are quite a few ways the Gremlin list can do its placements, but that does also suggest that the placements are quite important. At least important enough to be an area that the list can be ruined with, and if you suspect you opponent might do that, you're now buying the Saddle upgrade and spending a little more care on activation order and model protection. 

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6 minutes ago, looka said:

this will be an attack without +, which most likely will not lead to anyone's death

Killing the whisperer serms higly unlikely but the pig is up a fair bit on the duel and has some pretty nice triggers like slow or charging again straight back through the crew. Pretty decent result for a single obey even if it just causes a couple of damage points on something and a few cheated high cards from Som'er.

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1 minute ago, Kadeton said:

Totally, there are plenty of interesting possibilities!

Unfortunately, the further forward you push the lead pig, the easier it is for the enemy crew to respond and kill it before you can get started. And your Som'er-bowling pig has already burned one of its activations and left your Master way upfield and lacking either Wds or soulstones... 

I'm sure there are lots of cool ways that this list can get across the board if it needs to, but they all have costs and consequences - and no matter what, if someone shuts down one Warpig in any way you've lost a huge amount of punch, and there's no backup plan. It's not a brainless list to play, is ultimately what I'm getting at, I suppose. You'd need to be clever and careful (and a little bit lucky) to make it work, because small positioning errors or enemy interference will wreck its delicate machinery.

I'd really like to see it on the table, honestly. It would be a really interesting challenge to pick it apart in actual play.

Somer-bowling is 1 AP. You first push him with bayou and banjonista, and them charge him with pig, 2 attacks from charge push you up to 16", and then you still have 1 AP, to do 2 more charges within 1st activation. Normal+Stampede one. And Master in the enemy deploy, well, it doesn't matter if you table opponent. And if he counters pigs - you are done anyway. It's kinda all-in surprise-attack list. You either table opponent turn 1, and he surrenders, or you surrender yourself.

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3 minutes ago, Adran said:

Ooh I like the Sommer trick, that's a nice touch I hadn't thought of. 

it looks like you have become a bit closer to understanding the danger of this roster ))

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2 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Killing the whisperer serms higly unlikely but the pig is up a fair bit on the duel and has some pretty nice triggers like slow or charging again straight back through the crew. Pretty decent result for a single obey even if it just causes a couple of damage points on something and a few cheated high cards from Som'er.

If you trigger stampede, you can, actually, kill whisperer. Stampede tells us, that pig should charge closest model it is not engaged with. And that would be whisperer, cuz friendly models do not engage each other, as far as i remember. Correct me if im wrong.

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The order of Som'ers trigger in relation to the pig one isn't 100% set in stone. Please weigh in on my rules question posted for that interaction. It is possible that "after step five" is before "after an attack against this model is resolved" since the step five triggers are listed under the resolution of an attack.

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