is anything considered overpowered?

[Fetid Strumpet]

I see it as a big deal because its an advantage they didn't pay for. I have less of an issue with assassinate as there are several hard to kill masters, and it isn't impossible to get points from the scheme, it's just VERY hard to get full points. Cursed object and distract are obvious loopholes that should be closed.

[The Godlyness]

except for hamelin though right? cause he needs to be immune to cursed objects cause hey he is cursed. or how bout being distracted he does not need that he is solely focused on winning the Tyrant game.

[Cats Laughing]

If you suspect you opponent is going to play the Dreamer or Leveticus, it’s not a good idea to take assassinate. 

 

 

FWIW, you know your opponent's crew before you select schemes, so if your opponent is taking Dreamer or Levy and Assassinate is in the pool, then you know if will be difficult/impossible to get full points for Assassinate before determining which scheme to take. 

 

It will, however be too late to hire Void Wretches at the point where you know your opponent has either of these masters.  But if assassinate is in the pool, and you suspect these masters will be taken, and you can hire Void Wretches, then maybe it's worthwhile to do so...

 

 

EDIT: On the cursed object/distract front, I'm not sure it is a huge issue.  Both schemes can be achieved by targeting other models in a Levy/Dreamer/Hamelin/Nix crew, and don't rely on being able to target the Master.  In the Levy/Dreamer bury situation, they are not completely immune to the scheme either, and instead just have an easy way of clearing off the condition.

 

Assassinate I see as a bit more of a problem with Levy, as you can't target any other model in this crew for the scheme and he's almost immune to giving up 3 vp to that scheme (baring a very specific enemy model).

[moxypoo]

 

 

FWIW, you know your opponent's crew before you select schemes, so if your opponent is taking Dreamer or Levy and Assassinate is in the pool, then you know if will be difficult/impossible to get full points for Assassinate before determining which scheme to take. 

 

 

Absolutely this.  If you know your opponent is playing the Dreamer or Leveticus, then don't choose assassinate.  Cursed Object and Distract can target any model in a crew so having the Dreamer or Leveticus having easy ways to clear the conditions isn't a big deal.

 

In this case, there's also the interesting tactical consideration of forcing the opponent to bury his master.  Lets say the Dreamer player doesn't want LCB to come out this turn, but you Distract/Cursed Object the Dreamer.  Does the Dreamer player change his strategy or potentially give you a VP?  What if you Distract/Cursed Object Leveticus?  Does the Leve player sacrifice one of his finite number of Hollow Waifs to avoid giving you a VP?  If the Leve player does choose to bury and clear the condition, does this advance your plans?

 

There's a lot more strategy than, "these masters are immune to a specific scheme."

[Fetid Strumpet]

It doesn't matter if there are other targets. The rules overall should be applied equally to all masters. Masters that are difficult to kill are balanced in other ways, so I don't have much of a problem with assassinate, but it is beyond painfully obvious that those schemes are only not applicable to those masters through a loophole. The master of the opposing crew is often THE best target for such a scheme because they are one model that the enemy will be the least likely to just kill to get under the requirement, and they are theod whose actions you most want to tie up if you force them to remove it.

Many masters during the first beta were changed because they interacted with the schemes or strats in an odd way, and these should be as well,

And fact that these master Don't pay for the extra ability to prevent certain scenes from working is not good design, and the fix is exceptionally simple.

Either prevent the conditions in question from being able to be cleared in anyway other than their proscribed manner, or make both those schemes unable to affect any master in the game at all.

[Drool_bucket]

I see it as a big deal because its an advantage they didn't pay for. I have less of an issue with assassinate as there are several hard to kill masters, and it isn't impossible to get points from the scheme, it's just VERY hard to get full points. Cursed object and distract are obvious loopholes that should be closed.

Do you also feel that A&D and Murder Protege should be addressed?

 

I feel it very unfair that my 13 SS model has only Df6 and 9 Wounds to hide behind.

 

Fetid, I usually agree with most of your observations, but this one I gotta disagree with.  Levi and The Dreamer are not the only models in the game that interact (no pun intended) strangely with Scheme rules....  its part of this wide, deep game we have.

 

As long as we continue to choose Schemes after opposing Crews are revealed, then I don't see the issue.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Yeah, if Murder Protege is possible, I never hire Ashes and Dust. Period.

 

Similarly, if I'm facing Leveticus, I don't take Assassinate. Void Wretches and Karina can kill Leveticus for good from buried in theory, but even then it's quite unlikely.

 

And if Make Them Suffer is in the pool, I take mostly big models and avoid Minion-summoners.

 

It's just how the game rolls, really.

[Uktena]

Yes there is one thing that is overpowered Rasputina's Overpower trigger

Eat it and like it, Gremalos

[Woo]

Hi Fetid Strumpet,

 

I'm curious as to how you arrived at these conclusions, so I thought I'd post a few thoughts and see if you could help me.

 

"It doesn't matter if there are other targets. The rules overall should be applied equally to all masters."

 

Many models in Malifaux have abilities that create exceptions to the rules. It seems as though the rules are being applied and then an ability on the model is changing how that rule works. Isn't this the same for Lilith with her Master of Malifaux ability, Pandora's Expose Fears, or Zoraida's Enthrall? They all change the way in which the rules are applied.

 

"The master of the opposing crew is often THE best target for such a scheme because they are one model that the enemy will be the least likely to just kill to get under the requirement"

 

They often are, but sometimes there is something that makes them not the best choice which seems to be the case here. The observation has been made on the forums that trying to Assassinate Pandora is a pain in the bum. When she can change the rules by resisting with Wp instead of Df in any duel via Expose Fears and then use Fading Memory to push up to 4" any time she wins an opposed duel, she is difficult to pin down and kill. To me, this would seem to make her a poor target for the Assassinate scheme. What is it that makes one ability a "loophole", while others were planned?

 

"Many masters during the first beta were changed because they interacted with the schemes or strats in an odd way, and these should be as well"

 

I would have thought that if such issues had arisen during the beta testing of these models, changes would have been made. It seems odd to think that different sets of criteria would have been applied to the first beta and the testing of these models. 

 

Cheers,

Woo.

[The Godlyness]

What if make them suffer is in the scheme pool and I don't take any minions or peons. Or murder protege is there Also and I take ashes knowing full well o am going to kill him my self. That's 6 points I can't get back. Cleary the game is broken.

[hypoking]

Well, the former would mean you're forfeiting three points off the bat...

[thebarbalag]

Edit: Never mind.

[Drool_bucket]

Void Wretches and Karina can kill Leveticus for good from buried in theory, but even then it's quite unlikely.

Even when Levi is buried and dies he then just clears all conditions and heals all wounds.... And remains buried.

I am unaware of a rule that states buried models aren't able to use their abilities..

You can never get 3 VP from Levi with assassinate.

[CougDyver]

Even when Levi is buried and dies he then just clears all conditions and heals all wounds.... And remains buried.

I am unaware of a rule that states buried models aren't able to use their abilities..

You can never get 3 VP from Levi with assassinate.

 

Pg 47 of the M2E book...

 

"It is possible for models to be killed while they are buried, albeit somewhat rarely.  If a model that is buried is killed, it will not benefit from any abilities that happen on a model's death (like Finish the Job)."

 

Makes me think that you can kill levi while buried to get full points, but that is my interpretation.

 

Also, in reference to the general discussion of certain masters finding "loopholes" on certain schemes... I'm of the opinion just don't pick those schemes... If i'm against levi, i don't take assassinate (unless I am just playing for fun and want a challenge)... It would be like taking make them suffer and not hiring minions, or hiring ashes and dust when murder protege is an option... It's merely a poor strategy.  if you want to do it, fine, but realize it is a bad idea.    Just my 2 cents.

 

On an aside, I would like to take personal credit for Moxypoo's hatred of the Rail Golem and Ramos... Mwahaha.

[Ausplosions]

Even when Levi is buried and dies he then just clears all conditions and heals all wounds.... And remains buried.

I am unaware of a rule that states buried models aren't able to use their abilities..

You can never get 3 VP from Levi with assassinate.

No. He dies.

And you can.

[DeleteAccount]

Seems this is mostly a non issue, I find infinite triggers/actions/abilities a lot more problematic than 2 masters maybe being able to screw a distract or cursed object. Maybe it's me that I'm crazy, but I try to never commit to putting a cursed object unless the enemy model has already activated, with Distract I follow a similar logic the first time I apply it, so I just don't see it being that problematic and less when I can go for Alice or a Copelius for example. Hell, if I put Distract on Lelu, doesn't Lilitu also get it instantly? More Crazy shenanigans right there.

[Baalbamoth]

said it about other games as well... a good game cannot be completely balanced. if the game was completely balanced, you would be playing the skirmish version of world of warcraft, every mini would do everything, exactly as well as every other mini with no unbalancing aspects. it would also be boring as hell.

 

Think some things need cuddles, even slight ones... but I dont see anything so far that is soooo overpowering if somebody brings that army to the table any sane player just packs up his minis and goes home. 

[Icemyn]

Ok, I get that certain models interact oddly with certain schemes and we can sit here all day bringing up examples of this. 

Yes Ashes is really really bad when Murder Protege is in the pool, good news is the model is utterly insane the other ~90% of the time. 

 

The issue I have with Dreamer and Levi having this backdoor "immunity" to Cursed Object and Distract is that it's fairly obviously unintentional. Both of the schemes infer that they can only be removed in one way, but obviously the designers didn't have the foresight to say "actions or abilities". 

 

I have no problems with certain schemes being good or bad vs certain models or masters so long as its seemingly intentional. This doesn't seem intentional to me. Now don't get me wrong as a Levi player I will certainly make use of this oversight, but Levi doesn't need the help.

Edit: I don't actually care about the Dreamer having this "immunity" as he cannot just bury at will.  

[moxypoo]

Pg 47 of the M2E book...

 

"It is possible for models to be killed while they are buried, albeit somewhat rarely.  If a model that is buried is killed, it will not benefit from any abilities that happen on a model's death (like Finish the Job)."

 

Makes me think that you can kill levi while buried to get full points, but that is my interpretation.

 

Also, in reference to the general discussion of certain masters finding "loopholes" on certain schemes... I'm of the opinion just don't pick those schemes... If i'm against levi, i don't take assassinate (unless I am just playing for fun and want a challenge)... It would be like taking make them suffer and not hiring minions, or hiring ashes and dust when murder protege is an option... It's merely a poor strategy.  if you want to do it, fine, but realize it is a bad idea.    Just my 2 cents.

 

On an aside, I would like to take personal credit for Moxypoo's hatred of the Rail Golem and Ramos... Mwahaha.

 

CougDyver is correct with his reference.  I believe the rule he quoted is under the "Dead and Buried" section on p47.  It's definitely possible to get 3VP from Assassinating Leve, just extremely difficult. 

 

One thing I love about this game is the level of strategy involved in picking your crew with the asymmetrical schemes in play.  You have to consider not only how to accomplish the schemes you've selected, but how to prevent your opponent from scoring with his (possibly hidden) schemes.  These considerations begin in the crew selection stage.  As Razhem mentioned, one doesn't hire Ashes and Dust if Murder Protege is on the table.  If Cursed Object or Distract are on the table, I might consider taking Ashes and Dust, Hamelin, and Nix since these models are all immune to those schemes.  By taking these models in this situation, you might force your opponent to select schemes s/he may not have wanted. 

 

As another couple of examples, I wouldn't take Hamelin's themed crew with Reckoning as the strategy.  I don't try to Assassinate Seamus since he's very difficult to kill, and it takes an extraordinary number of AP to take him down for good.  I generally don't take Distract if I'm running a predominantly ranged crew.

 

In my eyes this level of strategy enhances the game, and I don't think it's overpowered (or underpowered) that different models are better or worse at certain strategies and/or schemes.

 

@CougDyver:  I still have nightmares about the Rail Golem beating half my crew to death every turn haha

 

 

EDIT:  In response to Icemyn:  I think you're right that it's probably an unintentional oversight.  I've never had either of these situations come up despite being an avid Leve player and having a Dreamer player in my group.  Just doesn't seem worth it to errata unless it's actually causing problems.

[Drool_bucket]

CougDyver is correct with his reference.  I believe the rule he quoted is under the "Dead and Buried" section on p47.  It's definitely possible to get 3VP from Assassinating Leve, just extremely difficult.

I understand the rule on pg 47, its how you would get points for The Dreamer... bury him and then kill him.  He has no "heal all wounds clause."

 

What I am failing to see (and I probably just dont' know the rule) is how Levi, when buried, is not allowed to access his ability on the front of his card which clearly states, "When this model is killed or sacrificed...."

 

If he's buried and takes all his wounds from some source...  does he not just remove all conditions, heal all wounds and bury?" 

 

Now, I can see some confusion at the last part, then the Failure Clause kicks in, which is a rule I don't have my head 100% rapped around between the edition changes.

[hypoking]

"If a model that is buried is killed, it will not benefit from any abilities that happen on a model's death."

 

Levi's stuff wont trigger while he's buried.

[LunarSol]

I don't think a master being strong to immune to a single scheme is necessarily a problem, but I can see issue with them being largely immune to multiple.  Forgetting at the moment which schemes are mutually exclusive, but if a master is in a game where they are immune to 2 or 3 of the available schemes, it's a pretty significant advantage.  Sure, the opponent still has 2 to choose from, but narrowing them down that greatly certainly allows you to build and play to counter their remaining options.  Trying to beat Levi through Line in Sand sounds awful anyway.

[Bengt]

The fact that you can't distract or curse object the Master doesn't make the crew immune to them though. How many models that are immune to all conditions can you get in a crew?

[Fetid Strumpet]

As Icemyn pointed out, it isn't that there aren't other targets, its the fact that it is an oversight in the rules, and that the most desirable target is the enemy master. 

 

I think it needs to be errata'd because precedent in this edition shows that the developers are going to be far more, ... focused, in their making certain the game follows intent rather than focusing on and allowing unintended rules interactions from proliferating, see the interaction between not Needing versus not being able to Ignore in the Lilith vs Silirid example.

 

Honestly I think I'm done with this discussion. Granted I don't get as much to play these days with work and a newborn, but I have and will continue to just rule this in the intended way in any events I run or serve rules judge for. If you disagree and wish to rule it another way in your events that's cool too.

[dgraz]

I hesitate to claim that this is a loop-hole. It certainly could have come up during PT and it was simply decided that it wasn't game breaking so was left alone. I've seen things before that seemed like loop-holes but weren't..........of course there have been several that were.......so how are we to know.