Rotten Belles - a happier redux

[Clement]

The idea was made off a false assumption, so that has to be taken into consideration. I'd actually created what I thought was an anti-belle list.

- The Waldgeists were to be used to block LOS (found out first turn they don't do that anymore)

- The Captain could run the strat on the front line without fear of luring from Counterspell

- Marcus could down Toshiro without too much difficulty by hiding behind the Waldgeists' forests.

That would do it. The loss of blocking on germinate seems to have caught a few people off guard. It would be interesting to see the game again with whatever you would have replaced the waldgeists with.

[brdparker]

That would do it. The loss of blocking on germinate seems to have caught a few people off guard. It would be interesting to see the game again with whatever you would have replaced the waldgeists with.

 

I've been thinking about it since then. The Counterspell upgrade is Rare 2, meaning I could have taken a second henchy with it, say... Joss, who ignores HtW, or Myranda, who heals (though I'm hesitant to use her when Murder Protege is an option, but I think I'm getting over that phase. She's good as a consistant healing source and out of activation attack obey). Molemen would have allowed me fast, and immobile objective-grabbers. Marcus' more passive limited with Inbued Protection gives the man a Df 8 after he activates, which is plenty against the belles, especially if I take an action to defensive stance. Hey Blaine, wanna rematch?

[Fireuser]

You only have to have a minimum of 25% of your table covered in terrain, 50% at most. That is straight from the book. If you are needing to stack, overload, or specifically choose certain terrain types based on a 5 stone minion....something is wrong.

 

Just wanted to point out, terrain is not necessary for Belles.  Terrain is necessary for everything.  Without terrain all ranged abilities become far more effective than intended.  Guild gun lines love a sparse board.  And while cover may not offer a benefit on the duel against lures, severe terrain will still cut your movement down making the lure less effective.

 

Also defensive stance does not help against lures.  It provides a to Df duels only.

 

PS - their slow almost never actually works for me.

[RagingRodian]

Just wanted to point out, terrain is not necessary for Belles.  Terrain is necessary for everything.  Without terrain all ranged abilities become far more effective than intended.  Guild gun lines love a sparse board.  And while cover may not offer a benefit on the duel against lures, severe terrain will still cut your movement down making the lure less effective.

 

Also defensive stance does not help against lures.  It provides a to Df duels only.

 

PS - their slow almost never actually works for me.

Not sure where defensive stance and WP came into this, but for terrain the arguments were very much of the setting up and choosing pieces deliberately to counter Belles, not to enhance the game in general. Never mind that you are supposed to set up terrain before even declaring factions.

I have seen Slow work just fine but it just hasn't been tried very often, their Lure is just waaaay too useful and relatively easy to get off to bother with Slow.

[brdparker]

Also defensive stance does not help against lures.  It provides a to Df duels only.

 

No, but it does against Pounce. It's handy, just not a catch-all.

[Ratty]

Not sure where defensive stance and WP came into this, but for terrain the arguments were very much of the setting up and choosing pieces deliberately to counter Belles, not to enhance the game in general. Never mind that you are supposed to set up terrain before even declaring factions.

 

Nope none of us are saying that you should set up the terrain "TO STOP BELLES", but the correct amount and mix of terrain does change the whole balance of the game. Playing with too little makes all ranged attacks too good, not enough difficult terrain means that models that are unimpeded are paying points for abilities they can't use, and that things move their whole distance.

 

For example the game I watched this week where you had Misaki vs Seamus, the Belles didn't seem Overpowered at all, they were useful, but the terrain meant there were multiple lines of approach so they had to split. It also meant that models could cross a large proportion of the board safely. And because the Belles had to split they couldn't all pounce the same target. It also meant that Sybelle couldn't get LoS to more than 2 or 3 lure targets the whole game.

 

If you play on an open board, a board with only one line of approach, or with just one type of terrain it is going to be unbalanced.

[RagingRodian]

Nope none of us are saying that you should set up the terrain "TO STOP BELLES", but the correct amount and mix of terrain does change the whole balance of the game. Playing with too little makes all ranged attacks too good, not enough difficult terrain means that models that are unimpeded are paying points for abilities they can't use, and that things move their whole distance.

 

For example the game I watched this week where you had Misaki vs Seamus, the Belles didn't seem Overpowered at all, they were useful, but the terrain meant there were multiple lines of approach so they had to split. It also meant that models could cross a large proportion of the board safely. And because the Belles had to split they couldn't all pounce the same target. It also meant that Sybelle couldn't get LoS to more than 2 or 3 lure targets the whole game.

 

If you play on an open board, a board with only one line of approach, or with just one type of terrain it is going to be unbalanced.

While terrain discussions have not been as prevalent in this thread as the last one specifically placing, using, and choosing terrain as a counter to Belles has been part of the discussions about whether Lure needs to be toned down. It is a given that you need some cool looking stuff on the table to fight over. Once you start talking about setting up the table so you can counter Lures before you even declare factions (or deliberately, knowing what your buddy is going to use) you are doing something other than just making a cool battlefield.

From practical experience, the only terrain that really helps against Lure is blocking pieces that remove sight lines. Otherwise, you are going to get hit and pulled out of position. Repeatedly. You have to come out eventually, because you generally can't win games by hiding from zombie hookers, and terrain isn't helping anymore. Plus, using blocking terrain like this starts messing with your own charge lines and ability to take objective points.

It is important to note that there is no comparing using terrain vs Lure and using terrain vs shooting in general. Lure is all or nothing, against shooting you can partially use terrain, better use your own LoS lines, and claim cover bonuses against incoming fire. If playing against Seamus I am also sure people are aware of what starts happening if you start using lots of blocking terrain and removing sight lines on Seamus himself...

You get to see the terrain before you hire your crew. If you take Unimpeded troops when there is no difficult terrain on the board you only have yourself to blame if you can't use that ability.

I can't really speak towards the Misaki game that you watched, there just isn't enough information there. I would be interested how this board was set up so however many Belles were hired and potentially summoned later couldn't see multiple models at an 18 inch range....and why they simply didn't move so they could. It also doesn't explain why they were having to rely on Pounce so heavily. Pounce is a nice perk but it is rarely a game winner.

[RagingRodian]

I think the important thing when facing Belles is activation control.. the enemy is wanting to drag out your big model and destroy it. The later in the turn you give them a decent target the less they can do.

 

Case in point a game I played earlier in the week, He had asked me to play Seamus as he hadn't faced him yet. I was running 2 Belles. 1st thing he did was activate his rail golem, power it up and charge it across the board.. That meant I could lure it in and had the entirety of my force left to activate to take it apart.

 

Now if he had activated his smaller stuff first, I could have lured them in, but then his Rail Golem would be free to move, or I could wait, in which case I would have to hope I got initiative so the Rail Golem couldn't activate and bash up my crew.

The lesson here isn't really activation control and Belles.

This is more "don't fling your big shiny golem out front turn 1 to get killed"....and 2 Belles is not spam.

More than 2 belles opens up more Lure horribleness, and even if all you get out of it the first turn is a dead 3 stone enemy model you have still deprived the enemy out of an activation, you have forced his crew to actively hide to avoid the 18 inch ranged Lures (messing with his ability to move even if you don't get a Lure off), and if what you killed drops a corpse counter (and most things do...) you get to summon another Belle with Seamus. These are all good things. Sure, a Rail Golem may come to visit on the second turn but you now have an edge when facing him...and if it kills one of your 8 wound hard to wound Belles you can just make another one from her corpse!

Multiple Belles also lets you move one to a flank or relatively "dead" area, allowing her to Lure the Rail Golem into her rather than the middle of lots of other targets that can be given Burning, minimizing AoE damage. The Belle will probably die but it will bog down the Golem but.....she drops a Corpse counter so you can just resummon her again to continue bogging down the Golem, or Lure it back to her if it tried to walk away (because you can still use a Lure even when Slowed).

[kross1]

I am still trying to understand the problem with belles, they lure thats about it. Take terrifying models, or multiple models that love being in melee or better yet take distract or cursed object everytime the scheme shows up and give it to that nasty belle. There are so many ways around the "op=ness" of the rotten belle. Remember you don't declare your schemes until after you see there crew. Relax, design your crew to kill off belle spam a couple of times and your opponent will go "Hmm, my belle spam no longer works, I think I will adapt and change my ways". If not you have an easy win! By the way no one has said in either this one or the prior thread, to use terrain to "counter" belles, they have said there might not be enough or the right terrain on the table. Hell, I play Seamus and my regular opponents would eat me alive if I played belle spam, try 5 Flesh Construct Mcmourning lists or 3 Teddy Dreamer lists, then compare that to the humble belle.

Just my 2 Guild Scrip, hopefully no offense, I just find the argument laughable. Good luck.

[AgrilusHunter]

By the way no one has said in either this one or the prior thread, to use terrain to "counter" belles, they have said there might not be enough or the right terrain on the table.

This!

[RagingRodian]

I am still trying to understand the problem with belles, they lure thats about it. Take terrifying models, or multiple models that love being in melee or better yet take distract or cursed object everytime the scheme shows up and give it to that nasty belle. There are so many ways around the "op=ness" of the rotten belle. Remember you don't declare your schemes until after you see there crew. Relax, design your crew to kill off belle spam a couple of times and your opponent will go "Hmm, my belle spam no longer works, I think I will adapt and change my ways". If not you have an easy win! By the way no one has said in either this one or the prior thread, to use terrain to "counter" belles, they have said there might not be enough or the right terrain on the table. Hell, I play Seamus and my regular opponents would eat me alive if I played belle spam, try 5 Flesh Construct Mcmourning lists or 3 Teddy Dreamer lists, then compare that to the humble belle.

Just my 2 Guild Scrip, hopefully no offense, I just find the argument laughable. Good luck.

Let me clarify a few points then. There has been a mess of discussion about terrain and Belles, both on this board and around the game tables. You could say "we aren't specifically talking about terrain as a counter to Belles". But consider a few things. First, you don't have to have a third of the table covered, you can have as little as a quarter. The type of terrain is not specified, nor is the placement, technically a warhammer table of a couple of hills, a few trees, and a building may be a bit boring to play on but it can be a perfectly legal set up. You can also not clog the middle of the table with terrain and have a perfectly legal. You also, and this is important, are setting up a battlefield witth no idea what factions are fighting on it.....could be Gremlins, could be Guild, could even be double Ressers....and if Ressers they may or may not spam Belles.

Once you start saying you need specific types of terrain, or using the "right" terrain, in specific areas, in high(er) amounts when you are discussing if Belles are too powerful you are starting to talk about terrain as a counter to Belles. I mentioned it earlier, but it is worth mentioning again: this is not the same as talking about needing terrain to keep ranged crews from being too powerful. Remember that terrain only blocks Lure if it completely blocks LoS to the model- for ranged crews if you are partially visible but in cover you at least get defensive bonuses. Then remember the ranges involved- Lure actually has the base range of sniping rifles, which is farther than the pistols and rifles in the game. You can't really make a comparison between the terrain needed to block Lure and what you need to keep a ranged crew in check.

You also cannot design your crew to kill off Belle spam, that isn't really a viable option. You aren't supposed to know that you are facing Belle spam when you are hiring your crew. If you do, cool, you will have an easier time of things, but as written even if your opponent declares Ressers you should expect half a dozen Masters, with who knows what Upgrades, leading a large variety of troops, possibly hiring mercs, who maay summon completely different models into play as the game progresses. For all you know you may grab your Belle killing list...and end up facing that 5 Construct McMourning list, wishing you had taken different models....

Distract and Curse Object work both ways. Remember, you don't have to kill the model once you Lure it in- you can also take that opportunity to Distract or give away Cursed Objects.

[rgarbonzo]

That's why I always design crews for killing. Makes it easier to counter shenanigans lol. 

[dgraz]

So........if you talk about terrain anywhere else, it's just terrain designed for creating a fun and balanced game......but if you talk about it in this thread then it's specifically for anti-Belles?

 

Yeah, okay.

 

If anyone at my LGS was A-hole enough to set up a WarmaHordes style terrain board and try to force people to play on it because they played with ranged stuff, well they would probably never get a game. And anyone that's setting up a tournament is going to care enough about having balanced tables so will set it up as well as they can.

 

What I think is wrong about this discussion is the complete disregard of any suggestions or comments about dealing with the Belles. Like saying that only blocking terrain helps against the Lure........whereas someone just said that severe terrain will reduce the movement a Lure can generate....impassable terrain will force models to go around.......thus reducing the effectiveness of Lure.

[RagingRodian]

So........if you talk about terrain anywhere else, it's just terrain designed for creating a fun and balanced game......but if you talk about it in this thread then it's specifically for anti-Belles?

 

Yeah, okay.

 

If anyone at my LGS was A-hole enough to set up a WarmaHordes style terrain board and try to force people to play on it because they played with ranged stuff, well they would probably never get a game. And anyone that's setting up a tournament is going to care enough about having balanced tables so will set it up as well as they can.

 

What I think is wrong about this discussion is the complete disregard of any suggestions or comments about dealing with the Belles. Like saying that only blocking terrain helps against the Lure........whereas someone just said that severe terrain will reduce the movement a Lure can generate....impassable terrain will force models to go around.......thus reducing the effectiveness of Lure.

To your first point, yes. But it is a fine line. You can talk about creating a fun and balanced terrain without it being about Belles. When you start talking about needing to add on more terrain, picking out the "right" terrain and arrange it to make Lures more difficult...you are starting to make it about Belles.

To your second point, who is to say that the guy playing against the ranged crew guy can't simply take a ranged crew himself? This is assuming he somehow has complete control over how the board is set up? Although by the sounds of it the board isn't the problem, the problem is the guy is an A-hole....

To the third point, terrain that completely blocks LoS is the only terrain that will stop a Lure from being able to land. Once it lands, severe terrain will slow the victim down....but that may very well work in the Belle's favor as they can pull a key model out of position and dump him in the middle of the swamp. Impassable terrain that also allows LoS is rare, but if you have it and a Lure worthy model is hiding by it they usually end up just stepping around the side of it or you need a second Lure to finish the job (assuming you didn't just want that first walk only to begin with). Unfortunately, Lure can be spammed at a long range. Or someone else just gets Lured instead.

Part of the perceived disregard is simply due to people assuming that they know what they are fighting ahead of time, and can plan accordingly. This can happen in some circles, and can result in some fun games. However, the rules are written so you do not know what you are facing ahead of time, minimizing much of the Theoryfaux that can be applied. It kills anti-Belle list counters and "bring a Belle spam list to an event and see if people can beat it" discussions pretty quickly.

[admanb]

To your first point, yes. But it is a fine line. You can talk about creating a fun and balanced terrain without it being about Belles. When you start talking about needing to add on more terrain, picking out the "right" terrain and arrange it to make Lures more difficult...you are starting to make it about Belles.

To your second point, who is to say that the guy playing against the ranged crew guy can't simply take a ranged crew himself? This is assuming he somehow has complete control over how the board is set up? Although by the sounds of it the board isn't the problem, the problem is the guy is an A-hole....

To the third point, terrain that completely blocks LoS is the only terrain that will stop a Lure from being able to land. Once it lands, severe terrain will slow the victim down....but that may very well work in the Belle's favor as they can pull a key model out of position and dump him in the middle of the swamp. Impassable terrain that also allows LoS is rare, but if you have it and a Lure worthy model is hiding by it they usually end up just stepping around the side of it or you need a second Lure to finish the job (assuming you didn't just want that first walk only to begin with). Unfortunately, Lure can be spammed at a long range. Or someone else just gets Lured instead.

Part of the perceived disregard is simply due to people assuming that they know what they are fighting ahead of time, and can plan accordingly. This can happen in some circles, and can result in some fun games. However, the rules are written so you do not know what you are facing ahead of time, minimizing much of the Theoryfaux that can be applied. It kills anti-Belle list counters and "bring a Belle spam list to an event and see if people can beat it" discussions pretty quickly.

 

So the Belle player both wants to pull models across the field and also doesn't want to pull models across the field simultaneously? They also have infinite lure activations to apply to (maybe), (eventually) kill a model, while their apparently unconscious opponent has zero ranged attacks, movement tricks, or anything else to apply to in any way mitigate the threat.

[kross1]

So the Belle player both wants to pull models across the field and also doesn't want to pull models across the field simultaneously? They also have infinite lure activations to apply to (maybe), (eventually) kill a model, while their apparently unconscious opponent has zero ranged attacks, movement tricks, or anything else to apply to in any way mitigate the threat.

+1

[sharpobjects]

Designing your crew to counter one very specific crew from one faction is not the answer and never will be the answer. I have no idea why it must be continuously repeated that crews are constructed in secret at the tournament level. If your opponent announces resers and you only design your crew in hopes of facing a belle spam that would not be very smart.

 

I do agree that at the local level if you had a player who played the belle spam list all the time then I would definitely hire a list to counter it and try to break his habit of bringing the same list all the time to the LGS.

 

No one at Adepticon ran a Belle spam list. So to comment that it didn't win or finish in the top tier is disingenuous. We only had one player from the Chicago area play Resser and he played Tara with 2 Belle's and finished 3-1-1. It has already been pointed out that 2 Belle's is not a spam. The one player who excels at the spam list was not able to attend the tournament. Even if he attended he would have been in a no win situation anyway.

 

If he won the whole thing his detractors would have just said well that's just one guy and that's just one tournament. Or they would have said he is more than likely an excellent Malifaux player and could have won with almost any list he set his mind to. Or the terrain was too conducive to his crew and didn't offer his opponents a chance to counter. And on and on and on.

 

If he would have not won the tournament or finished in the top tier then detractors would have said, see, see its not too op. These individuals would have completely disregarded their own argument that one tournament doesn't mean anything.

 

Those of you who have either played Malifaux competitively for years OR have played anything competitively in your life should realize that there is a lot of factors that go into winning a tournament. Often things just went your way for that day(s) besides factoring in your skill level and your competitors as well.

 

My personal opinion regarding this game and how the models are generally designed from a rudimentary standpoint often refers to a basic question. How reliable can a model do X and how does that ability equate to the cost of the model? That is not the only question that comes to mind when looking at a model or designing a model to be balanced but it is a very basic question that needs to be answered before you move onto more complicated questions concerning the models place in the world.

 

The Belle at CA 8 on its lure, 18 inch range, suits built in and low TN is too reliable of an attack action. At CA 6 it would still be very good but offer an opponent more of a chance to resist. Comparatively as I have stated in the Mech Rider thread, it's tactical action to summon a model with a 6 suit turn 2 and just a 6 turn 3+ is too reliable. Everyone is dug into their opinion and at this point cant see the trees for the forest.     

[dgraz]

 Everyone is dug into their opinion and at this point cant see the trees for the forest.     

Pot. Meet Kettle.

 

Just like.........Belles pull you across the table..........but if you have severe terrain you don't go as far.......yeah but the Belles only want to pull you a little way at first.....yeah but if you have impassable terrain, you have to go all the way around......yeah but the Belle is making you move out of position.......yeah, but then they aren't pulling you across the table......oh, don't worry, they'll do that too......but I thought they only wanted to pull a little, when they pull you far they pounce on you...........yeah but when the terrain is balanced, LoS lines are broken and they can't just sit in a group to Lure......yeah, but then they just pull you out of position.......

[Mako]

Ok, this thread is starting to go into that old familiar 'everyone tells everyone else they're being difficult and not listening' territory. Lets stay out of it please!

[Kadeton]

I find it hard to believe the thread is still going at all. Hasn't everyone moved on to talking about whatever this week's "It breaks the game and the world's going to end!" thing is yet?

[RagingRodian]

I find it hard to believe the thread is still going at all. Hasn't everyone moved on to talking about whatever this week's "It breaks the game and the world's going to end!" thing is yet?

This discussion started months ago. This is the third thread about Belles being too good for their cost that I know of since the official release of the new rules.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Well as just as another anecdotal piece of evidence, I used no belles and Jaakuna Ubume in their place last week in a Molly List, and I personally can say that Belles would absolutely not be worth their cost, or even close to it if their Lure were reduced to 6 without a potential total rebuild, as I never successfully got a single lure to actually land with Jaakuna even once. She was still worth her cost for everything else she brought to the table, but at a stone less for MUCH less utility if Belles ever get errata'd it would need to be a pretty much total rebuild from the ground up in my opinion.

 

It's a moot point as Justin has said repeatedly that Belles will not be getting an errata, barring major proof that they are breaking the game presenting itself, and no such proof has been forthcoming at this point in the game.

[RagingRodian]

So the Belle player both wants to pull models across the field and also doesn't want to pull models across the field simultaneously? They also have infinite lure activations to apply to (maybe), (eventually) kill a model, while their apparently unconscious opponent has zero ranged attacks, movement tricks, or anything else to apply to in any way mitigate the threat.

The Belle player can both want to pull models all the way across the board and not want to pull them all the way across, both have tactical uses and both are possible with Lure. Lure is a very flexible power. All the way across the board is great for isolating models to either kill them or bog them down into an engagement that isn't in the victim's favor- such as redirecting a melee monster or making models that explode or cause AoE damage to not be able to use that damage to maximum effect. Part way across the board, perhaps just a few inches, is all that it may take to keep a model from scoring VPs, to get a Pounce, to pull a model into charge range or and engagement with one of your heavy that is ready to strike, to drag a model into severe terrain, or to simply make an enemy model have to waste APs during its activation to move back into position to take advantage of synergy effects. It isn't a one or the other situation.

You don't get infinite Lures, of course not. But every Belle has the ability to take 2 of them every turn at an 18 inch range, plus any Belle summoned onto the table can still Lure while slowed that turn. If you only take a humble 4 Belles that is 8 potential Lures.....that is a lot!

There is a side effect from spamming Lures that is also being left out of the discussion.....they have a trigger built in that makes the victim have to discard a card. Seriously. When you are spamming 8+ Lures a turn chances are you are going to top deck or cheat in a couple of Crows so you will be bleeding cards off from the victim's hand. That is a huge perk.

Lure doesn't have to result in the victim being killed to be useful. Naturally the opponent isn't unconscious. But you cannot deny that Lure is allowing the enemy to move his models for him, and as Belles come with Companion they can chain activate...so the victim may very well be just sitting there for a bit while two Belles have their way with his model(s). Yep, Belles have Companion too!

Sure, the opponent may have ranged attacks. Keep in mind a few things. First, ranged troops often do not want to get into engagements, it restricts their potential targets and they are often somewhat soft in hand to hand- and Lure is excellent at forcing models to get into engagements. The range on most ranged attacks isn't all that great, 10-12 inches....which also happens to be very close to the range where you can be charged or simply Lured into engagements. Finally, shooting becomes less and less useful as unengaged models start finding that their potential targets are ending up within 2 inches of the enemy, and very few models can actually shoot into engagements without the danger of hitting their friends. Trying to leave the engagements becomes tricky if the Belles get Embraced off, which is a trigger on Belle melee attacks that actually prevents you from declaring walk actions for the rest of the turn while engaged.

You mentioned movement tricks. Keep in mind that Lure itself is a movement trick, and can be used on your own troops to nasty effect. One other thing that is fairly consistent with movement tricks is that they require synergy and position to take full advantage of them- Lure very specifically disrupts that. Not saying it can't be done, but they are not nearly as efficient as they should be, and the key players themselves are actually plum targets for a Lure.

Nobody is saying that Belles cannot be mitigated. What is being said is, if you aren't specifically taking an anti Belle crew (and you are not supposed to be able to), you are spending way more resources than you should countering Belles. For a 5 stone minion they are simply too good.

[RagingRodian]

Well as just as another anecdotal piece of evidence, I used no belles and Jaakuna Ubume in their place last week in a Molly List, and I personally can say that Belles would absolutely not be worth their cost, or even close to it if their Lure were reduced to 6 without a potential total rebuild, as I never successfully got a single lure to actually land with Jaakuna even once. She was still worth her cost for everything else she brought to the table, but at a stone less for MUCH less utility if Belles ever get errata'd it would need to be a pretty much total rebuild from the ground up in my opinion.

 

It's a moot point as Justin has said repeatedly that Belles will not be getting an errata, barring major proof that they are breaking the game presenting itself, and no such proof has been forthcoming at this point in the game.

As a counter piece of anecdotal evidence, I have used Oiron about a half dozen times and have never get their Lures off- but then again, they do not have all of their suits built in like Belles do, and is usually what hurts them.

So a five stone model, who can still Lure with all suits built in at an 18 inch range, who can be summoned, that can chain activate, has 8 wounds and hard to wound, a trigger that forces discards, Pounce, a trigger that prevents the victim from declaring walk actions while engaged, and can give out Slow at a 12 inch range with their needed suit already built in isn't worth 5 stones if they have the Ca on Lure dropped from an 8 to a 6, which is still higher than the average Wp in the game?

Not quite sure what proof you would want besides actual field testing experiences, done repeatedly, and correctly acting without the knowledge that you are playing against Belle spam. This is what we are already offering.

[dgraz]

Not quite sure what proof you would want besides actual field testing experiences, done repeatedly, and correctly acting without the knowledge that you are playing against Belle spam. This is what we are already offering.

One or two meta group's experience does not equal proof.

 

Your counter points to 'Luring across the table and not Luring across the table' saying that it's a very flexible ability is true, but I'm confused by how you make this point.

 

Belles can pull a single model across the table or they can pull a short distance to pull to deny VP or mess with synergy....I get that. One of the anti-Lure tactics is to use positioning with the available terrain to mitigate the effects......so if I'm using that tactic on a model that you want to Lure across the table, then the Lure isn't as effective. You're saying that you can use the Lure any way you want and it will be effective.....but I know which models you are going to want to Lure.....so I use one of the anti-Lure tactics mentioned in this thread on that model. 

 

So, yeah it's flexible, but you can't Lure a model a couple of inches that you wanted to pull across the table and say it's just as good.