Moon Shinobi vs Pandora

[rgarbonzo]

Okay so heres the situation, a mighty Moon Shinobi has charged Pandora using his tiny green fists. On his attack action it says that this model (Moon Shinobi) chooses whether the target resists with either defense or willpower. Pandora states that she can resist with Wp in any opposed duel. If the Moon Shinobi chooses Pandora to resist with Defense can Pandora then choose to resist with willpower?

[edonil]

Yep, that's what it looks like.

[rgarbonzo]

I was thinking the same thing just checking...

[Ikvar]

I have the exact same problem, and we have played it like that aswell. However I still cant find anywhere in the rules where this is actually explained, so I have never been able to give my players a specific rule when they ask :/

[MrDeathTrout]

Pandora's ability - Applies to any opposed duel where she is defending.

Moon Shinobi's attack - Only applies to one specific attack.

MS's attack only applies to attack actions (instead of all opposed duels) and it only applies to one of his attacks. To me it seems like Moon Shinobi ability is more specific, and so takes priority.

Why do you guys give Pandora the preference here? Is is a timing issue? MS uses his ability to pick Df, then Pandora uses her ability to pick Wp after his ability is completed?

Edited December 31, 2013 by MrDeathTrout

[Ikvar]

Why do you guys give Pandora the preference here? Is is a timing issue? MS uses his ability to pick Df, then Pandora uses her ability to pick Wp after his ability is completed?

That is exactly my question, I have only played it in Pandoras favor as I am the Henchman, and I will always play a rule in my opponents favor if I can not answer the question with 100% accuracy...

Edited January 1, 2014 by Ikvar

[WildRacoon]

This is why I would favor Pandora over the Moon Shinobi. I don't know if I am right though. The MS declares whether it is against DF or WP when the action is declared. So if the MS chooses DF, then it is just a normal MI vs DF dual. Pandora's Expose Fears says "This model may resist with WP instead of DF in ANY opposed dual." I don't see why the MS would make the dual different than any other dual, besides the fact he gets to choose whether he is targeting DF or WP at the start.

[JacktheRipper]

I would agree that timing is the key here. Also, I would say that Pandora's ability trumps simply based on how it is written.

[Joel]

Attacking (active) model applies abilities first, then defender does - this works out in Pandora's favour.

[CrouchingMoose]

Correct me if I'm wrong (don't have cards in front of me), but doesn't Pandora's ability say that if she is defending using her DF, that she may use her WP instead. If that's correct, here's how the scenario plays out.

1) MS attacks Pandora and gets choice to attack against WP or DF (since the decision is made when the attack is declared).

2) MS decides to make Pandora use DF.

3) Since Pandora is defending using her DF, her ability triggers and she gets the option to defend with WP instead.

4) Pandora decides to use the WP to resist instead of DF, also changing the duel from a DF duel to a WP duel on her end (which potentially might allow her to push afterwards).

[MrDeathTrout]

Attacking (active) model applies abilities first, then defender does - this works out in Pandora's favour.

Can anyone tell me where this is stated in the rule book?

[Fetid Strumpet]

The recent FAQ update on Malifaux.com clarifies that Pandora can use her ability even when targeted by an ability that can choose which stat she uses for her defensive stat.

[MrDeathTrout]

the recent faq update on malifaux.com clarifies that pandora can use her ability even when targeted by an ability that can choose which stat she uses for her defensive stat.

ty

[Sharp_GT]

As far as timing is concerned, this ends in Pandora's favor. Pg 35 of rules manual (no idea in full size):

Resolving actions

1. Declare Action and Spend AP

...The model also declares any variable in the action.(choosing which stat target will resist with)

2. Perform Duels (at this point Pandora will have the choice to resist with her Wp instead of Df)

3. Resolve Results

Pandora's ability for reference:

Expose Fears: This model may reist with Wp instead of Df in any opposed duel. This model considers the duel a Wp duel.

[MrDeathTrout]

First off I know this is academic at this point since the FAQ is out, but I'd still like to understand the rules behind it, because at this point is seems very arbitrary to me.

2. Perform Duels (at this point Pandora will have the choice to resist with her Wp instead of Df)

I disagree that Pandora would declare this in step 2. I don't see anything in her ability or step 2 that support this. I cannot think of anything else in Malifaux where the attacker and defender do virtually the same thing in different steps. In every other instance I can think the model with the lowest duel total or the defender has to declare first.

But after rereading pg. 35 a few times I do see support for Pandora's ability happening (during paragraph 5) after MS's (during paragraph 3). Paragraph 5 is when Special Ability's that require a duel are resolved. It could be argued that both attacker and defenders Special Abilities are handled in paragraph 3 and the duels are resolved at this point, but this is the closest I've come to a rule that specifically supports the ruling in the FAQ.

Resolving actions

1. Declare Action and Spend AP

...The model also declares any variable in the action.(choosing which stat target will resist with) (paragraph 3)

...Sometimes a target will have Special Abilities (such a Terrifying) that require a duel in response to being targeted. These duels are handled now, after AP is spent and targets are declared. (paragraph 5)

[Mastershake]

First off I know this is academic at this point since the FAQ is out, but I'd still like to understand the rules behind it, because at this point is seems very arbitrary to me.

"Expose Fears: This model may resist with Wp instead of Df in any opposed duel. This model considers the duel a Wp duel."

Honestly I don't even think the sequence aspect matters. The rule states she may resist with Wp instead of Df, so whatever duel she's engaged in has to be a Df resist in the first place for Expose Fears to even come up i.e. if the Moon Shinobi chooses Df it's now a Df resist and Expose Fears triggers giving Pandora the option, if he chooses Wp Expose Fears doesn't even trigger.

I understand it's a moot point to argue and I understand this ruling can seem arbitrarily favorable, but the way Pandora's ability is worded it will only trigger if the duel resists with Df in the first place, so even without the ruling I'd have to fall on the side favoring her over the Shinobi.

It's never pointless to figure out where a ruling comes from especially with active Beta testing going on.

[MrDeathTrout]

Mastershake,

I see your point, but I think the sequencing does matter. Consider these two scenario's. They have the opposite effect based on what order the special abilities are resolved in. I have found very little in the rulebook to support either scenario.

Secnario 1.

MS attacks Pandora

Pandora uses Wp for defense.

MS chooses Df for Pandora's Defense.

Scenario 2.

MS attacks Pandora

MS chooses Df for Pandora's Defense.

Pandora uses Wp for defense.

Consider this example using triggers.

MinionX attacks MinionY.

MinionX declares a trigger "After resolving target gains +2 Burning"

MinionY declares a trigger "After resolving this model removes any one condition"

The order here is critical. If minionX is first then the condition can be immediately removed. If minionY is first then the Burning cannot be removed by his trigger. Is see this and the Pandora v. MS debate as the same, two models with conflicting abilities triggered at (arguably) the same time. Luckily with triggers we have a rule that states when two triggers happen at the same time the defender goes first.

With the attack the rules are not nearly as clear. The common consensus seems to be that MS must declare Df or Wp when attacking, then Pandora declares her ability to change it to Df or Wp. This makes logical sense, but the same logic would dictate that MinionX's Burning would happen with the attack, then MinionY's defense would nullify the Burning, which is opposite of the rules. The Declare Action and Spend AP (pg 25) does support favoring Pandora since resolving Special Abilities with Duels happens after the attacker declares targets (and I'm assuming other variables), but Breaking the Rules (pg 19) states "In the rare instance that two special abilities contradict each other, the more specific of the two rules takes precedence." Pandora's "any opposed duel" is less specific than MS's one specific attack, favoring MS. Without any rule clearing showing the timing I would consider these two special abilities that contradict each other and give precedence to the more specific.

FYI - In case anyone is wondering I do not use (or plan to use) Pandora or MS.

Edited January 3, 2014 by MrDeathTrout

[Mastershake]

Secnario 1.

MS attacks Pandora

Pandora uses Wp for defense (since all attacks default to Df)

MS chooses Df for Pandora's Defense.

Where is that ever mentioned? In the Attack Action section it even says the attack has to state what stat you use to resist. The resisting stat is determined by the action, there is no default mentioned anywhere in the rulebook.

You have to tell Pandora what to resist with, if your action is normally a Df resist or you choose Df when you have the option, Expose Fears triggers.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Mastershake

[Hagisman]

I find it odd.

Is there any situation where Pandora has to use her defense?

[Mastershake]

I find it odd.

Is there any situation where Pandora has to use her defense?

Currently no, probably intentional. Weirdly enough if you had her resist with some of the wierd stats (a few things resist with Wk or even Ht) she can't use her Wp.

[MrDeathTrout]

Where is that ever mentioned? In the Attack Action section it even says the attack has to state what stat you use to resist. The resisting stat is determined by the action, there is no default mentioned anywhere in the rulebook.

You have to tell Pandora what to resist with, if your action is normally a Df resist or you choose Df when you have the option, Expose Fears triggers.

You are correct sir. Massive brain fart on my part. I'll edit my last post.

[Gorbad]

In an opposed duel? No, not that I can think of. Of course, if its not an opposed duel she can't use Expose Fear.

[MrDeathTrout]

You have to tell Pandora what to resist with, if your action is normally a Df resist or you choose Df when you have the option, Expose Fears triggers.

I see the logic here, I just don't see a rule supporting it. The same logic could be applied to the Burning trigger example in my earlier post. But I think you are right, I think that is the best justification we will get for the FAQ ruling.

[The Godlyness]

In an opposed duel? No, not that I can think of. Of course, if its not an opposed duel she can't use Expose Fear.

Standing next to a friendly or an enemy with fears given form. Sad days for her.

[Cats Laughing]

I find it odd.

Is there any situation where Pandora has to use her defense?

Fears Given Form (Neverborn Upgrade)

(note wording from July 5th wave 1 beta rules, but I believe the important part is unchanged in the final published rules)

"Models that begin their Activation within this model’s Engagement range must succeed on a Df 14 Duel or suffer 3 damage."

This isn't an opposed duel, so Pandora takes this on her Df and hates life.

There are a few other occasions where an opponent can pseudo-attack her Df by using un-opposed Df duels.

Wong's two (0) actions currently (as of the 12/30/13 update) will "attack" Pandora's Df, with no chance for her to use Wp, as they are also un-opposed simple duels using Df and having a TN she needs to beat.

There may be other ~attacks~ that can target her Df.

Of course, to do so, these "attacks" cannot use an opposed duel, so the ~attacker~ won't be able to do much to influence Pandora's ability to pass/fail the duel...

[Mike3838]

Scenario 1.

MS attacks Pandora

Pandora uses Wp for defense.

MS chooses Df for Pandora's Defense.

But now Pandora is involved in a Df Duel and

This model may resist with Wp instead of Df in any opposed duel.

So Expose Fears kicks in, even though it didn't kick in earlier in the Duel process.

There's no "point of no return" in the Duel process after which Expose Fears is "too late" to work, which seems to be where the confusion lies.

ANY opposed duel where Pandora finds herself using her defense, she can use her WP. As soon as a Duel meets that criteria, she can use her WP