Gamers Lounge Ep. 77 - Therapy

[Dracomax]

Proviso: I like M2E generally, but I will still be playing m1E at least some of the time, and it's going to take a lot of convincing to make me, and even more than that to convince my fellow players that M2E is better. Part of this is the number of models not out, granted, but...

I understand why people don't like M2E, and so I have to respond to these.

Yes, you have to spend soulstones on upgrades, but the game has got bigger - so you're effectively getting them for free in the grand scheme of things - how can seemingly intelligent people not get this through their heads!

Except not. the game stayed about the same, but even if it didn't, you have to make upgrades worth it. for the most part, they are currently at either must take, or don't bother. It's generally better to just take another model with at least half of the masters.

This I agree with a little, but you have to admit it was getting fairly ridiculous the amount of special rules, abilities, and other stuff to keep track of during a game - most of which would only get used in a rare edge case.

I actually don't agree with this. I know other people felt that way, and good for them, but being surprised when I saw a new use for an ability, keeping track of these things, etc...It was actually part of the charm. It's part of what made me want to pick up new masters and new crews, to find out all the new things I could do and abilities could interact. It's part of what made the game fun, and for me, and many of my fellow players, it is a lot of what is missing in M2E.

---------- Post added at 10:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 AM ----------

I absolutely respect your right to your opinion and understand you're no fan of M2e, but that's a bit disingenuous.

Surely the key things that make MX different from the other games out there are; the fate deck, strategies and schemes, selecting your force after you know your objectives? These are the things that make MX unique as a game, not paired weapons.

Those were the Key things to the game, yes. That doesn't mean losing the other things didn't make it less, or make the game less enjoyable. I think the abilities, however, are key things to the models--losing them makes the models feel more like other wargames.

[mythicFOX]

Those were the Key things to the game, yes. That doesn't mean losing the other things didn't make it less, or make the game less enjoyable. I think the abilities, however, are key things to the models--losing them makes the models feel more like other wargames.

I understand your point, and why people may feel that way. I was simply pointing out that a list of 'All the cool stuff that made the game unique' should probably mention the fate deck at some point.

To pretend M2e is just like any other wargame and has no unique elements any more is at best disingenuous.

[dgraz]

Except not. the game stayed about the same, but even if it didn't, you have to make upgrades worth it. for the most part, they are currently at either must take, or don't bother. It's generally better to just take another model with at least half of the masters.

This is personal opinion. I agree that there are some that are auto-include and even a few that are a never take (the Echo of Souls ones) but I strongly disagree that they are as black and white as you say.

[Mike3838]

I absolutely respect your right to your opinion and understand you're no fan of M2e, but that's a bit disingenuous.

Surely the key things that make MX different from the other games out there are; the fate deck, strategies and schemes, selecting your force after you know your objectives? These are the things that make MX unique as a game, not paired weapons.

Not only that, but Nighthater is blatantly wrong about the things that he says are "gone"!

Paired weapons? Plenty of models (including some of the obvious ones like Sword Vik and Punk Zombies) get a + flip on the attack. It's not called "paired weapons" any more, but it's still there!!

Spirit? It's now called Incorporeal, and it halves damage from Sh and Ml attacks. Spells still bypass it! There are plenty of attacks which cause damage which "cannot be reduced". Call these "magical" if it makes you feel any better, but the mechanic is still there!

(Also "Magic Weapons are gone so spirits are lame now" makes no sense. Spirits would get *more* powerful if there were no magical weapons/attacks....)

Specific AP? These were most often found on Masters, but they all get 3 now anyway. If you're claiming that in M2E you're not using at least one of your 3AP on an action that you used to use the specific AP for in M1E, you're probably using your Master wrong. You haven't lost any AP. Many minions had +1Melee Expert, but that's been replaced by 2 attacks on the charge. You still get to make the same number of attacks on the charge!!

Slow to Die - ok that one's been replaced by something different. Damn, I guess that's Malifaux broken...

/rant

Back on topic:

Bill, I've listened to the first part of the podcast and will come back with some thoughts later

Edited July 22, 2013 by Mike3838

[DeleteAccount]

This is personal opinion. I agree that there are some that are auto-include and even a few that are a never take (the Echo of Souls ones) but I strongly disagree that they are as black and white as you say.

Have to really echo this, I don't know if I'm lucky or what, but when I'm playing with Nico, I take very much into account what my battle plan is while deciding what my schemes will be, if I want to kill, I'll go more into necrotic crowning and take a more brawly and self sufficient crew to not need to summon too much instead of buffing, or if I want to tank stuff a bit more I'll take the poison heals my guys upgrade and maybe even sebastian to make my healing be stronger and so on. Your battle plan and planned crew should really make you look at what your upgrades bring to the table, and I do feel that a lot of people playing master instead of faction during the whole process has made people sort of forget about all the mindgames associated to the crew making process.

[Helm]

Your battle plan and planned crew should really make you look at what your upgrades bring to the table, and I do feel that a lot of people playing master instead of faction during the whole process has made people sort of forget about all the mindgames associated to the crew making process.

This.

In my last game, my opponent assumed that I'd be bringing Pandora and went for Lady J. She and the Judge had the appropriate Upgrades, with things like improved Willpower and the ability to Pulse damage onto Spirits.

Meanwhile, I assumed that he'd be bringing Sonnia, and my objective was to kill his Master. I had a pairing of Lilith and Taelor with improvements to melee engagement range, ability to damage models bogged down in said engagement range and Nexus of Power to make the pair very survivable while they marched up the board, as well as Lilith being able to throw up Forests to block Sonnia's ranged attacks.

On paper, the whole thing comes out as "Lilith vs Lady J" and the Upgrades to take seem black-and-white and very obvious. When you actually sit down across an opponent with options as to their possible Master, the Upgrade system becomes far more interesting.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Well it's easy for me to say I told people so

Regarding what? Did you mistakenly take this podcast as empirical proof that M2e is a bad game?

[DeleteAccount]

Well, I've finished listening to the podcast and left it simmer for a while.

First off, a gigantic thanks to Spencer and you Bill for doing it thanks to popular demand. I appreciate you have taken your time to present your percieved issues with the whole thing.

As for the show itself... I'll admit a cringed more than a few times. Most of those comes from your issues. I do share a couple (LoS, specially vantage point) but most of what you both hate is huge pluses for me (red joker works, soulstone use, scheme markers). So what you were thinking "bloody madness" I was thinking "bloody genious!", so yeah, I was getting quite a few "what are you guys thinking?!?!" when you raised an issue about the changes I like.

So I won't bother trying to convince you of anything since we are pretty much in opposite sides of the spectrum and on very core rules which there isn't much else to say than "it works like X now".

I do feel though that a big part of your impressions seems to be tainted with your fallout with Wyrd. First off, to make things clear, I have no idea whatsoever what happened there, I did not see the post that warranted the NDA enforcement against you, I have no idea what happened with the old team and why Justin and Mack are the main forces behind the game. So keep in mind I'm pretty blind to the whole process, but it seemed like every time Mack was mentioned, you were almost seething poison there. I mean, the guy was probably assigned to M2, that doesn't mean the guy had a personal plan to ruin Malifaux, he just dug through his own experiences and what you see a lot of misses, I see as a lot of hits (not wanting to undermine Justin's efforts either, but it was mostly Mack who seemed to get you going).

Also, I highly doubt that Mack has not played Malifaux, but that you have played a really big number of times doesn't mean that the impressions you get from the game are automatically the best or that another player's impressions are immediately wrong. It just means he came to different conclusions.

Also, you are talking about a game you loved dearly, which you played many times a week and have I don't even know how many matches under your belt, while not having even reached 8 games in M2, not saying it will magically be the most enjoyable thing ever after those extra couple of games, but you do have some heavy emotional baggage associated to it, so it's no wonder change will be like a kick to the balls to you.

Another thing that raised an eyebrow was bashing the whole idea behind using a master you don't usually play in the beta. The point of that is to basically focus on the core rules and avoid getting too hung up on what has changed from before on a by model basis, not because I expect you to play the viks. If you go for your favourite guy, it will tend to make you look at everything from 2 lenses instead of 1, it isn't the core has changed into x but also my fav master has changed into y, and well, getting both impressions at the same time might be a bit too intense.

I also wondered what made you feel stats weren't king before, I mean, that has remained exactly the same, you flip and you cheat, if you weren't a master, it is exactly the same as before, so I fail to see how now it feels "stats and cards" are all that matters when compared to before where stones came into it.

The other one I found strange was the concept that the game was balanced in various SS slots, I can assure you that against most crews, if I go Yan Lo, Izamu, and something else, my opponent will have a horrible day at lower stone games. And I've also played a few M2 games at 40 and 50 with Nico and didn't see a huge upswing or downswing, might just need more testing to actually notice something.

As for Spencer, he seems to be mostly in it for the fluff, so I can see more where his lack of enjoyment comes from since the art has been pretty bipolar and the rules I consider mostly clutter on models did give more character.

I will raise the following question to him though, what was so restrictive about the new iteration of Zoraida that he felt she was soulless?

She lost Bayou Two-Card (which is the really painful one to lose), Invisible Servants and hex but the rest is mostly there, maybe not in the same form you remember it, but you can still become a crow with an upgrade, have the cristal ball in another form that is less curse inducing, an obey that you can use more actively, an autocasted repulsive, she is still making vodoo dolls, she is now 3AP which may not be as fluffy as casting expert but still opens more tactical options than it closes, she can still summon puppets and she gets a couple of upgrades with new options like the hex bag and Tarot Reading.

Yeah, she can't have the crow form and the crystal ball at the same time, but still, I'm just not seeing the chasm of lost opportunities you seem to see there. For me Seamus feels like I can actively do things now instead of sort of shrugging sometimes, so maybe it's a by master thing and that's why I'm blind to it.

I am not patronising you nor pretending to insult your intelligence, and I will keep listening to the podcast, cause I am really interested on seeing what you have to say about the community (the art not so much, but it's been pretty hit and miss). Hope you can find enjoyment in an M2 world and if not, well, lets see what other interesting things are in the market.

Edited July 22, 2013 by Razhem

[Sleeper00]

I am listening to it now, and I only wish there had been a third person on who liked M2E to be a counter point. To me it is starting to sound like two people who can race to see who likes the game least. I don't feel like there is anyone taking any other opinion besides "Overall I don't like that they changed my game". Sorry if that offends, but it is the way it sounds. Even the points of enjoyment about the new rules seem like foils to another dip into the I don't like this. To the point where it feel like they are saying, well I like this, and that proves I am being balanced, and so now lets talk more about the things I dislike.

Now, if anyone is still reading my opinion, I have a quick question. In the beginning you talk about deployment, and that the 12 inch deployment is so much worse then any other deployment, I am just wonder why with more specifics. You say it is because the first person who activates will have such an overwhelming advantage that the second person to go will have a VERY hard time with anything. Considering that at most your opponent will have 2 activations to get something done before you go, and that killing is only marginally important, what is the real issue?

I have found that on the occasions when that pops up, it can lead to more interact markers being dropped, as it is easier to be within a certain distance of the opponents deployment zone, but that it really just removed that 1 round of moving without being in attack range. What other issue do you have with that?

Thanks for listening......or not.....lol

[Judgeman]

I cannot agree with Nix more on every point brought up in this podcast.

[Dorian]

However, if I'm forced to buy an entire Rasputina Crew Box to get the Ice Golem I didn't buy in 1.5 because its rules were awful I will look at Wyrd the same way I look at GW.

This is one thing I don't like about the switch to plastic. However, the box sets dropped in price so it offset it.

Also on the topic of the podcast I enjoyed it. Both parties raised some good concerns, many I agreed with and some I didn't. I can't wait to hear the art style discussion because I feel that is one of my major gripes just about the general direction of the game.

One of the points that struck me was the comparison to WM/H. I get there's a slight bit of that feel but it's nothing major where I'd call them that similar yet. I play WM/H and that has a distinctive battle feel to it while M2E still feels skirmish to me with less emphasis on killing, granted it now has more emphasis in my mind than V1 did.

The concern over the markers struck me as odd. In my games there never were that many scheme markes but you got me thinking if a model doesn't have much to do then just Wk and scheme to throw your opponent off and get extra insurance. Using this tactic especially with swarm, which as you said seems like the next big thing, could clutter the board.

Finally I wanted to put up one question to the both of you. Do you feel like the improvement of swarm over elite crews is a bit of a backlash against how good some of the elite crews were? With the 7+ SS models that were just plain good all over and saw a lot of use? I'll draw a comparison to 40k where assault used to be a very strong phase & now with the new rules it's rarely used except by armies/units purely designed for it.

---------- Post added at 03:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:27 PM ----------

I am listening to it now, and I only wish there had been a third person on who liked M2E to be a counter point.

IIRC Bill mentioned near the end that the next episode was going to be with someone who really likes M2E to provide the counter point.

[nix]

@Judgeman - wow, thank you. Even Spencer did not agree with all my points. *grin* Ever get out to the DC/Northern VA area?

@Sleeper00 - On the 12inch deployment (close deployment) and why I think its the worst and does not work with Malifaux (Classic or V2). This comes from a combination of a number of different aspects.

One of those issues is killing-ness. Having a 12 inch deployment zone means a couple things. First, there is only a 12 inch separation between the two crews if both deploy at/near the edge of the zone. This means that in Classic, where the bulk of the ranges are 10-12 inches, crews are immediately in range to engage each other from the first activation. We already know through seeing the impact of the Chompy Slingshot and Collodi that this can be a bad thing and truly pushes the game into who can activate first (especially with companion). In V2 the ranges have been extended into the 12 - 14 inch ranges with some being even longer. This means that now there is no need to move what-so-ever in order to begin engaging the other models at range. In both editions of the game Melee becomes even more of a powerhouse, as many models are now in range to rush across the very narrow division between zones and tie up the opposing crew, bringing to focus melee combat right from turn 1, on the first activation. In Classic this type of deployment in relation to combat will significantly sway the power-curve toward hard hitting ranged or melee models that can simultaneously activate. In V2 this has a similar effect, although now we look to resilience instead of simultaneous activation.

Now, there is also the situation where both players do not deploy at the edge of the zone but one player holds back. This is almost a worse situation, as the player who deploys first ends up at a severe disadvantage in this type of deployment. This becomes especially true if one of the players plans for a ranged crew. In that situation, the ranged crew will always set-up at about the mid-point of their deployment zone. Ranged combat in both Classic and V2 will both be in range to engage from the mid-point of the deployment zone (~7-9 inches onto the board) into the opponents deployment zone, typically fairly deep.

Next we look at the fact that Malifaux is not about killing but is about objectives and in V2 its about scheme markers. Being able to deploy 12 inches onto the board and thus starting the game 6 inches away from the mid-line of the board throws off the whole idea behind scheme markers and objectives. Objectives for the most part in both Classic and V2 are created to be placed on your opponents half of the board. Now you can achieve that positioning on turn 1 and again we are down to very little positioning. This will also push the game away from a scheme/objective based game to a combat based game. If we are both looking at the mid-line on turn 1, it serves tactics better to engage and tie up your opponents models as fast as possible. This means that the first person to activate (initiative on turn 1 becomes paramount) gets a distinct advantage to drop the first scheme marker (in V2) or interact with an objective (in Classic) and then its advantageous to just engage and detain (tie up) enemy models so they cannot interact. This means that combat becomes the focus because of the close deployment.

Now look at the issues caused with a shift in the game when those two factors intersect. This comes even before we look at the impact of being able to drop aura's and pulses into range on turn 1.

@Razhem - Thank you so much for your response. It is well written and reasoned and has been very well received (by me at least). It does sound like we are just coming at V2 from opposite directions. As you mention, must of what I (and Spencer) dislike are the exact things you like.

There is a lot to cover in what you typed up, but I wanted to pick out one of the items to respond to. The whole idea behind balance at specific levels was something that Spencer and I talked about exploring in a future episode. I followed the V2 open beta closely and was really intrigued (as I mentioned in the podcast) with the perception that the game was no longer "balanced" outside of the "target" level of 50ss. I was even more surprised that this is such a focus that the designers felt it necessary to insert a "designers note" into the core rules to tell people where to play. In all my years of playing Malifaux I have never heard this concern before. I have heard that larger games let you take "all your toys" so you did not have to make decisions. I also heard that some models just did not work well at lower point totals (taking Nekima in a 25ss list as an example). Until V2, I had never heard that the game was "balanced at a specific point total". This is something that completely baffles me and also leaves me with the opinion that whatever has changed in V2 to create this situation is a change for the worse. As I mentioned in the cast, I have never once run into a situation where I felt the game was unbalanced at any different point level and have played Scraps of 25ss up to 60ss. Now, that said, I also noticed that much of the balance discussion in V2 (in relation to point levels) also intersected with the summoning changes and discussions. I plan to discuss a comparison between Classic summoning and V2 summoning in a future episode (With Cheated Fates Joe of all people).

---------- Post added at 03:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:29 PM ----------

Finally I wanted to put up one question to the both of you. Do you feel like the improvement of swarm over elite crews is a bit of a backlash against how good some of the elite crews were? With the 7+ SS models that were just plain good all over and saw a lot of use? I'll draw a comparison to 40k where assault used to be a very strong phase & now with the new rules it's rarely used except by armies/units purely designed for it.

Spencer needs to get off his but and get involved in the conversation... lol....

*grin*

I see the "swarm issue" (which is really just my opinion at this point) to be a direct response to the intersection of a couple changes. First of those changes is the increase in overall size of the game while some specific models were kept at a low point total. A couple of those models (Gremlins, Archnids, Guild Guard, etc) kept their significant status so work with Schemes and strategies very well. Basically, you can buy more and they are just as effective at objectives). Second is the near elimination of extra AP. This means that many/most elite models have less AP to do things in game and need all their 2 AP to position and achieve their goals (attacking, casting, board control, etc) in game. Third are the changes to the core rules around Schemes, Strategies, cover/LOS, and movement combined with the simplification/streamlining of the models.

Basically, it is now (in V2) even more important to have more AP that your opponent as more AP translates to more capability on the board. As models are simplified/streamlined to achieve only 1 or 2 purposes and not others they need thier limited AP to do those things. If those things are not dropping scheme markers (such as what Silurid are very good at) then it is better to take more models to get that AP.

[caen]

One of the points that struck me was the comparison to WM/H. I get there's a slight bit of that feel but it's nothing major where I'd call them that similar yet. I play WM/H and that has a distinctive battle feel to it while M2E still feels skirmish to me with less emphasis on killing, granted it now has more emphasis in my mind than V1 did.

.

I also have my doubts about this comparison - WM&H is my primary system since 2006 and I really do not see similarities between M2E and WM&H as far as gameplay and scenarios is concerned. However I see similarities in number of rules on cards – average Solo/Warjack/Beast in WM&H has as many rules as Henchmen or Master in M2E (before upgrade).

What is really interesting is that in WM&H Player have much more models with similar “depth” to control than in M2E – and so far I do not hear voices that WM&H is too complicated – just opposite point level is steadily increasing from initially 35 to 50 or even 75 points.

Edited July 22, 2013 by caen

[Mister Shine]

@Windlordryu

Looks like at least some minions will be available outside the box set https://twitter.com/ericjgames/status/359162224826253312/photo/1

[Joel]

Well, I've finished listening to the podcast and left it simmer for a while.

First off, a gigantic thanks to Spencer and you Bill for doing it thanks to popular demand. I appreciate you have taken your time to present your percieved issues with the whole thing.

As for the show itself... I'll admit a cringed more than a few times. Most of those comes from your issues. I do share a couple (LoS, specially vantage point) but most of what you both hate is huge pluses for me (red joker works, soulstone use, scheme markers). So what you were thinking "bloody madness" I was thinking "bloody genious!", so yeah, I was getting quite a few "what are you guys thinking?!?!" when you raised an issue about the changes I like.

So I won't bother trying to convince you of anything since we are pretty much in opposite sides of the spectrum and on very core rules which there isn't much else to say than "it works like X now".

I do feel though that a big part of your impressions seems to be tainted with your fallout with Wyrd. First off, to make things clear, I have no idea whatsoever what happened there, I did not see the post that warranted the NDA enforcement against you, I have no idea what happened with the old team and why Justin and Mack are the main forces behind the game. So keep in mind I'm pretty blind to the whole process, but it seemed like every time Mack was mentioned, you were almost seething poison there. I mean, the guy was probably assigned to M2, that doesn't mean the guy had a personal plan to ruin Malifaux, he just dug through his own experiences and what you see a lot of misses, I see as a lot of hits (not wanting to undermine Justin's efforts either, but it was mostly Mack who seemed to get you going).

Also, I highly doubt that Mack has not played Malifaux, but that you have played a really big number of times doesn't mean that the impressions you get from the game are automatically the best or that another player's impressions are immediately wrong. It just means he came to different conclusions.

Also, you are talking about a game you loved dearly, which you played many times a week and have I don't even know how many matches under your belt, while not having even reached 8 games in M2, not saying it will magically be the most enjoyable thing ever after those extra couple of games, but you do have some heavy emotional baggage associated to it, so it's no wonder change will be like a kick to the balls to you.

Another thing that raised an eyebrow was bashing the whole idea behind using a master you don't usually play in the beta. The point of that is to basically focus on the core rules and avoid getting too hung up on what has changed from before on a by model basis, not because I expect you to play the viks. If you go for your favourite guy, it will tend to make you look at everything from 2 lenses instead of 1, it isn't the core has changed into x but also my fav master has changed into y, and well, getting both impressions at the same time might be a bit too intense.

I also wondered what made you feel stats weren't king before, I mean, that has remained exactly the same, you flip and you cheat, if you weren't a master, it is exactly the same as before, so I fail to see how now it feels "stats and cards" are all that matters when compared to before where stones came into it.

The other one I found strange was the concept that the game was balanced in various SS slots, I can assure you that against most crews, if I go Yan Lo, Izamu, and something else, my opponent will have a horrible day at lower stone games. And I've also played a few M2 games at 40 and 50 with Nico and didn't see a huge upswing or downswing, might just need more testing to actually notice something.

As for Spencer, he seems to be mostly in it for the fluff, so I can see more where his lack of enjoyment comes from since the art has been pretty bipolar and the rules I consider mostly clutter on models did give more character.

I will raise the following question to him though, what was so restrictive about the new iteration of Zoraida that he felt she was soulless?

She lost Bayou Two-Card (which is the really painful one to lose), Invisible Servants and hex but the rest is mostly there, maybe not in the same form you remember it, but you can still become a crow with an upgrade, have the cristal ball in another form that is less curse inducing, an obey that you can use more actively, an autocasted repulsive, she is still making vodoo dolls, she is now 3AP which may not be as fluffy as casting expert but still opens more tactical options than it closes, she can still summon puppets and she gets a couple of upgrades with new options like the hex bag and Tarot Reading.

Yeah, she can't have the crow form and the crystal ball at the same time, but still, I'm just not seeing the chasm of lost opportunities you seem to see there. For me Seamus feels like I can actively do things now instead of sort of shrugging sometimes, so maybe it's a by master thing and that's why I'm blind to it.

I am not patronising you nor pretending to insult your intelligence, and I will keep listening to the podcast, cause I am really interested on seeing what you have to say about the community (the art not so much, but it's been pretty hit and miss). Hope you can find enjoyment in an M2 world and if not, well, lets see what other interesting things are in the market.

I find myself agreeing with most of the above. A very well-thought out and reasoned post.

[HaggisMcMutton]

glad to have the gamers lounge back in action! Havent listened to it yet, but looking forward to hearing your perspective on m2e. As a fan of the Gamers Lounge, I really hope M2E can get you excited with Malifaux again, once all the dust settles from the switch to a new edition. There will be alot of things about 1.5 that I will miss. There's plenty of good and bad, but for me it still feels like Malifaux, altho in a different form.

[OtherSpencer]

Thanks for the jabs Bill. Not all of us are so lucky to "work" from home .

first off: my comparison to wm/h is its streamlining of rules to make it easier to understand and thus make it a solid Ruleset for a competitive environment. I feel not only it an aim for m2e to be open to new players but also have a Ruleset that could be competitive. For me is rather have my fluffy game and use my hordes armies for the other.

2nd: the issue of hordes vs elite is very interesting to me. I'm unsure if the Intent was to counter the str of elite crews or just how it panned out after setting up the new strats and schemes. It's definitely a topic id like to return to after more games.

3rd: thanks for everyone's comments so far. I plan on continuing to get more games of m2e and talking about my experiences. Maybe something will click for me too.

[DeleteAccount]

Since I don't want to turn this into a "quote huge posts, the vengeance", I'll state that I'll be commenting on Bill's answer about the whole balance on different soulstone levels thing.

OK, basically, I haven't played nearly enough to feel if there is any form of disparate when playing in various SS sizes in M2, most of my relevant games (as in, I knew what the hell I was doing) have been 40 and 50 SS and I haven't noticed any extremes there. My most extreme game was vs Mei Feng playing an experimental 3 monk list in Reckoning and well, the pacifist route didn't go as well as planned. The rest have been more or less close.

Anywho, since I haven't been playing around with that, I can't judge. I can only say that in 40 it felt all my stones were going to support models and then midgame is when I would bring out my summoning power to get my hitters. Maybe it would be extreme in a 20 stone match game, though paying 11 stones for mortimer with corpse bloat at that level seems like a very bad plan too and if it did pan out, I don't see how it can be worse than going on a 25 stone match with Yan Lo, Izamu and some night terrors/other toys to do schemes for example.

I also agree with you that nobody ever complained that the game was broken at lower or higher SS values, though 30-35 being the golden standard makes me believe very few people actually went out of those limits and well, when you had masters like old Pandora, Hamelin and Kirai who made games at the "optimum" value be pretty horrible, I'd say that being able to play 25 stones between Rasputina and Seamus was the last thing people actually had in mind.

I do think they have come out and actively stated this mostly as a "cover yer backs" thing. It doesn't mean that the game goes from perfect balance to a sad pathetic mess of suck if you play 10 stones up/down, it's just them admitting that pretty much all the efforts of testing have been localized within the 50 SS boundary. So even though initially nothing should be out of wack, they don't guarantee that some things will get edges in those sizes. Hell, playing a game with 3 models and having a hand of 6 is a lot different than playing a match with 12 models per crew with those same 6 cards.

Now, will a Ramos 25 stone crew vs a Marcus 25 ss crew mean Ramos will always win since he summons for example? Well, I haven't played it, so I have no idea, I don't initially feel like it will be the case, but who knows? As long as it doesn't reach some of the extremes that could be found in M1 even in 35 SS matches, I'll be pretty satisfied there. So yeah, they may admit not balancing there, but as long as it's still more balanced than M1 in it's unbalance, I'll give it a toast.

[Rameses]

I can't say over all I loved episode 77 of the Gamers Lounge (but then you don't need me to.) I enjoyed listening to Bill's and Spencer's side of the coin. And I did take away a lot of things that I hadn't noticed in the M2E rules set thanks to this episode. I did at one point have the feeling that the song played at a break should have been "50 ways to say Die" by Train. Because their was a ton of veiled (not so much?) hostility.

More importantly the ONE thing I took away from this episode is SADNESS.

Sadness that two such PROMINENT voices of Malifaux have taken such a dim view of the latest edition of Malifaux, maybe "dim view" is the wrong term. But certainly a "loss of love." is accurate. And that is something I find disheartening.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Rameses

[Justin]

The 50 ss recommendation is purely there to help people transition from 1.5.

In 2.0 we adjusted many ss costs and added upgrades. For people to purchase upgrades, they would need a few extra ss. We knew that people would probably play right off at the old 35 and then comment that they couldn't afford all of the models they could before since they wanted some upgrades, so we added the 50 ss recommendation.

[rgarbonzo]

I'll preface this by saying that I enjoy standard deployment and abhor the corners. The "tetris deployment" can make things interesting, and the close can be a fun game. The thing is is that you cannot look at deployment types in a vacuum. They must be weighed against the current strategy and any available schemes. Close deployment is great for all the strategies because you know what the strat is and all available schemes before you hire your crew. This can make model selection very important. That model that can't move very fast but hits like a ton of bricks is now a more viable option in the close deployment setting. Models that start out fast are even better because they can run across the board on turn one. You still have to play to the strategies and schemes you just are closer to each other, basically negating turn 1 (or as I like to call it, lots of stuff moves and not much else happens). How is the initiative flip one turn one and different than the initiative flip on turn 2 after most crew have moved into position? It seems like close deployment just skips the movement turn (or substituting deployment for turn 1) and goes directly to accomplishing strats and schemes. How is this a bad thing?

[mattbird]

I've listened to lots of podcasts, and been around for lots of rules edition changes in other game systems.

Gamer's Lounge guys- this podcast was not the way to handle whatever your dissatisfaction is/was with the game.

A) you're way overreacting. The game is basically the same game it was before. The same kinds of tactics are still there, the fluff is there, the models are there. There are rules changes. Get over it and get on with it.

as an "ambassador" of sorts for Malifaux, you are really giving a poor impression of the game to potential new listeners—and after listening to your podcast for an hour or 2, you never really say WHY. You just repeated ad infinitum "it's horrible" and gave no overview of the changes or why they were horrible that was accessible to new listeners who did not know what the changes were.

Basically, if you hate the new game so much, I'd recommend you step away for a while. This is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby, so spending so much time complaining about it is counter-productive.

Edited July 23, 2013 by mattbird

[fishtank]

I must have missed the meeting that said people who were unhappy with the changes had to stay silent and absolutely not release material that dared not kiss the collective posteriors of Wyrd.

Bill and Spencer are unhappy with the changes made to the game. As both have resigned as Henchmen neither owes Wyrd a damn thing.

You don't have to agree eith them but you sure as hell don't have the right to moan about them not saying what you want to hear. They were open from the first minute with how they felt - if you get your panties so bunchec up over their opinions why did you listen.?

[LupusFerreus]

I can't believe the important thing has been missed, is Spencer really of "former Cheated Fates" radio? Has he left CF?

/cry

[Pierowmaniac]

Basically, if you hate the new game so much, I'd recommend you step away for a while. This is supposed to be an enjoyable hobby, so spending so much time complaining about it is counter-productive.

Considering Nix's previous output of episodes for a good number of years up towards the Beta test, Id say he has already taken that step away for a while and as he mentioned it was other people that had requested to hear his thoughts (myself included).

Although I agree some parts where a bit cringeworthy (Ie the obvious dislike of Mack) I found the episode a good listen in regards to understanding the thoughts of people who do not like the changes as much and have untill this point been very active within the community and have contributed numerous times to things such as 'tournament' and 'story encounter' rules. Nix's Story pack and acheivement league documents were (and still are) a great help to many Henchmen behind the scenes.

Perhaps Nix did get a bit too close because of that?

Either way their was plenty of things I dissagreed with and somethings I whole heartedly agreed with and thank both bill and spencer for taking the time for having the discussion.

Im now looking forward to listening to the Andrew Wakelin interview and the follow up Art/community discussion (wonder if your going to get a mention now )

PS to Nix

Try to avoid talking about Mack next time

Edited July 23, 2013 by Pierowmaniac