Future of Ours MalifauX experience

[caen]

Back on topic a bit can someone explain the "old feeling" that's been lost?

For personally the game feels the same. Sure I could pick up on different rules that change the game (soul stones) but it still feels the same to me.

I'm just curious.

The Peoples who have selected this option in the Poll probably think differently – for Them probably something was lost.

[Forar]

Another thought regarding why not many people have posted in the negative; people can see who has voted for what. While this keeps the votes a bit more 'honest', where we might be less likely to have people voting about quitting just because they don't like one little thing, but are totally planning to stick around (or will end up doing so regardless of what they say). It also means that it's instantly recognizable who is making that bold stand, and those who are leaning negative but aren't necessarily 100% sure yet don't want to commit to a full on "peace out, I'm gone" when really they're waiting to see how their friends, stores and play groups react.

Just sayin', the deck may be stacked against anything but a tidal wave of approval here. If nothing else, peer pressure is a hell of a thing.

[Dracomax]

I don't know, but as one of my friends said, M1E was just more fun. You always had something to do other than just 1-2 things on the card every activation.

[i_was_like_you]

I don't know, but as one of my friends said, M1E was just more fun. You always had something to do other than just 1-2 things on the card every activation.

And those seldom used abilities could totally catch your opponent off guard when you did get the opportunity to use them.

[Pierowmaniac]

I voted playing M2E but regretting the loss of Malifaux 1.5.

Now I love M2E (as far as the beta goes) and I understand the reasons why the changes where made (to help make the game more accessible being a very good reason), so I am backing M2E as well as enjoying the games......however I did prefer the 1.5 rule set on a purely personal level.

I should say if I could make multiple selections from the poll, I would also select play both versions as I'm very sure if the opportunity comes along I will still enjoy the chance to put henchwoman Molly and ratcatcher Hamelin on the table.

[Dustcrusher]

My dyslexic friend will have a chance of being able to hold whole cards in their memory rather than painstakingly reading tiny print,

I never considered this, but if it means he can play more easily now, I'd call that a success.

I'm all in on 2.0. I can understand why some folks will stick with Classicfaux- they are the lucky people that can play a 35 stone game in 90 minutes or less. I am not one of them.

The rules cleanup is just far too good for me to want to go back. I don't know the rules 100% yet I still consult the rulebook far less than I did in 1.5.

We've gone from 2-3 hours in 1.5 to ~90 minutes in 2E. I'd venture to guess that even since I've gotten a bit better, a 1.5 game would still take me 2 hours to play unless we stuck with Book 1 masters only.

They even worked in a quick-and-dirty game option. I had come up with the idea of 30-Minute Malifaux ages back, and a couple of other groups (one in the UK and our very own TedPro's group) fleshed it out further than I did. Now it's part of the standard rules- if I want to have a quick match representing Sebastian and Mortimer fighting over the same stash of corpses, I can do it with minimal fuss.

I share the concerns about the upgrade system, but the game plays well enough without it.

In the past couple of years, I've grown to embrace games that have simpler rules yet offer plenty of tough tactical and strategic decisions. M2E is one of those- the rules are simpler, the models' base abilities are fewer, but I can focus on getting good at the game instead of fighting with the rulebook.

[Mehter]

I'm all in for M3E.

[Tuttleboy]

Speaking of the UK scene, I think I'd like to swing out for 4M if you all can do it again next year. Listening to Malifools makes my chops water and eyes glisten when I think of the fun you all will have.

What are the chances of another 4M and letting a Yank in?

[DeleteAccount]

And those seldom used abilities could totally catch your opponent off guard when you did get the opportunity to use them.

Victory because the other guy forgot the mostly useless parts in your card is not victory, it's just abusing a lack of knowledge, I had a lot of these in old warmachine and though you felt really clever when you won with Amon, you knew it was only because the guy wasn't aware what you could do with him.

As for the rest, I'm fully embracing M2. That my last intense match in M1 was vs Pandora certainly didn't help. I also played a friendly tourny M1 tourny and though I did enjoy it, I was being crucified by constant rules questions which I hope will be reduced in M2 and well, the old cards were bloody hell to navigate when compared to getting used to the new format and I remembered how disgusting Izamu was on a Yan Lo crew (I was the yan lo user) which was fun, but completely demoralized my opponent when I resummoned a full wound Izamu (that one is probably getting a love tap...).

Yeah, M1 was fun, but that I literally had crews I couldn't take out because they were buzzkill gave volumes about it and that a lot of cards were full to the brim when most times you used half the card and even then, most of the stuff done was pretty formulaic made notice how much was excessive rules for the sake of it, yes, it's cool, but when it clutters things up it's overstayed it's welcome.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Razhem

[ChaoticaX]

I voted for playing M2E but missing something from 1.5

Personally, i love the new ruleset from what i read and played, its a shame i came on here today to get the latest one down and find its no longer in the beta phase. Everythings more streamlined, soulstones are no longer auto wins against non-users, games play quicker. If i could have the game my way, id happily take the new rules, with the old models complexity. I loved all the skills, i didnt play competitively so i made a point of trying to use every skill that a model could.

Its the loss of that wall of text that bothers me. I liked the game being complex. The other thing that bothered me was the objective markers, placing them with models felt messy, and crowded the board a bit. I preferred when they were placed first in 1.5 (though i dont know if this changed towards the end of the beta, havent been on for a month or so).

Im just hoping collette doesnt get dumbed down too much, i loved all the tricks, even if most of them were just hot air and intimidation.

[caen]

If i could have the game my way, id happily take the new rules, with the old models complexity. I loved all the skills, i didnt play competitively so i made a point of trying to use every skill that a model could.

Very true also for me.

[NIGHTHATER]

You also have to assume that the majority of the people that will actually see this poll are for it. The people that hate M2E have probably already abandoned the forums.

True. Quit playing Malifaux is really the only option up there for some of us now. I'm only on the forums now to show my appreciation for peoples painting skill in the Miniature showcase. If people were to sit back and be forced to tell the truth (something so rare in this stupid world) I bet most would just say they wanted a better version of 1.5 with some minor tweaks for balance. M2E is nothing like what I wanted.

Nighthater

[Pagan Wolfe]

Due to mixed feelings in the group I play with I will happily play both until such time, if ever, everyone comes around. The main 'eh..whatever' factor for most at the moment are the fact that the rules (beta) were always changing (yeh I know, beta, but they couldn't be bothered learning and unlearning stuff all over the place) and the fact that many models and crews are not yet supported.

Both of these facts will change with time and more of the players will come around, but I will always play what ever version of Malifaux my opponent is loving.

[Sklertic]

My group (8-9 people or so) all embrace M2E. The old rules were just too complex for beginners, and you really needed 3-4 games before you started to "get it". I find that it's much easier to sell the game to newer players now.

And boy do I like the upgrade system. The old cards were so packed with info, that even after 20+ games with Sonnia, I could still forgot stuff and triggers. Crazy.

And let's be hones, 1.5 was at its core, a semi-broken game. A game where you can namedrop a master or several minions, and have the opponent be completely demoralized, before even starting the game, that means something is wrong

Really looking forward to next phase, have a nice summer all!

[PierceSternum]

I bet most would just say they wanted a better version of 1.5 with some minor tweaks for balance.

That is exactly where I am at. I really like some of the changes made to the rules for M2E like pre-measure, soulstones and red joker.

But, I came to dislike the complete rewrite of every model in the game.

I would rather:

1. Apply those core rules changes I like in M2E to M1E.

2. Clear up wording of the rules

3. schemes were given the attention that the last Gaining Grounds gave to strategies rather than the new way and balanced.

4. OUTLIER MODELS were fixed on the ends of the spectrum of good and bad. (Malifaux Child-Ice Golem vs. Pandora-Tuco)

5. Models not on the far ends of the curve were just given some cost-adjustment attention.

I think those 5 steps could have allowed for us to make a better game than M2E or M1E and I also believe that the entire system and line of models could have been tested and brought into alignment in the same amount of time it took to do just this first wave and I think we would have hit the mark closer than has been done.

There is literally YEARS of thoughts and feedback in these forums addressing every model in the line made by many of the absolute best players in the game in terms of consistent tournament results.

But rather than use that or, as far as I can tell, many of the people that made Book 4, which I still maintain is the best and most complete book in the line, much of the direction and development seemed run by the same person brought in to develop the RPG and the person in charge of Henchman. (But at least Justin had years of Malifaux experience)

Now all things considered, I think they did a very good job. But, I am not grading on a curve with my money and hobby time.

An improved M1E could be the best game on the planet and I am saddened that there was a choice not to do that.

So, I am still torn. There is so much I prefer in M1E. But there is also things I think that I do not want to lose from M2E...

Its not like I am going to sell my models. I think M2E is ok. I just had higher expectations, I guess.

[DeleteAccount]

Linking this again for the nth time for those that love to say the word "complex" like if it automatically meant something is better because of it.

Also, for those thinking "dumbed down", got to disagree, the viks require a lot more finesse than before now that's for sure. The word people are thinking is different and getting used to it.

As for book 4, I love it to pieces, but I played an M1 event tately using Yan Lo and Izamu and felt outright evil doing it, that half of the game was such a balance mess that things that weren't so out there didn't seem so bad doesn't mean that when you look at them from the lens of a tighter system they aren't completely out of wack.

Ok understand the people that feel something is "missing" or somesuch, but the thing is that what is now "missing" lets the game actually be accesible and not as cluttered. And sorry, because you played the dreamer crew and it's bajillion rules doesn't mean you are special or a tactical genious, it just means you read the guide about how to play the dreamer and reproduced all the absurd interactions that had to be chained to end with a combo because at the end of it, most of the "complex" stuff people are daydreaming about now were by the book combos. I should know since i played the hell out of Kirai, who was hell to learn, but once you understood her, it required no mental effort whatsoever except those turns you didn't manage to flip a mask.

[nix]

True. Quit playing Malifaux is really the only option up there for some of us now. I'm only on the forums now to show my appreciation for peoples painting skill in the Miniature showcase. If people were to sit back and be forced to tell the truth (something so rare in this stupid world) I bet most would just say they wanted a better version of 1.5 with some minor tweaks for balance. M2E is nothing like what I wanted.

Nighthater

Just wondering why quitting is a better option over playing "Against all odds still play Malifaux 1.5" as the poll has it?

Personally I am a bit disappointed that the local scene around me has opted heavily for 2.0, but that just means the frequency of my games is dropping way (way way way) down from before 2.0. I am even getting in a game of good old Malifaux Classic today.

---------- Post added at 11:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:46 AM ----------

And let's be hones, 1.5 was at its core, a semi-broken game. A game where you can namedrop a master or several minions, and have the opponent be completely demoralized, before even starting the game, that means something is wrong

I am interested in how you feel the new version has changed? Considering over half the models in the game are not even being tested yet I cannot see how anyone has gotten in enough V2 games to say this won't happen again.

[Gruesome]

My 10 year old son competed in Malifaux masters 2 years ago.

People need to stop saying "complex" like it means anything.

v1 is NOT too complex for beginners. At least anymore than v2 in terms of cards, cheating, individual models, etc...

Or did I somehow miss something in that we were ALL beginners... In the beginning...

If you want complexity, ask my son to try to explain scheme markers and pools to a new player.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Gruesome

[dgraz]

Victory because the other guy forgot the mostly useless parts in your card is not victory, it's just abusing a lack of knowledge, I had a lot of these in old warmachine and though you felt really clever when you won with Amon, you knew it was only because the guy wasn't aware what you could do with him.

Quoted for truth.

My group (8-9 people or so) all embrace M2E. The old rules were just too complex for beginners, and you really needed 3-4 games before you started to "get it". I find that it's much easier to sell the game to newer players now.

Same. I've been teaching a new guy to play....first game he tried Mei Feng and last night he tried Misaki.......so, two games.....I didn't really pull any punches last night....I played Lady J whom I haven't yet played in the beta.....and he played me to a draw 5 to 5.

For someone to pick up how to use a crew so quickly really speaks volumes about the new ruleset.......either that or he could be a gaming genius orrrrrrrr....I just suck.....I'll sleep better believing it's the game.

[PierceSternum]

Just wondering why quitting is a better option over playing "Against all odds still play Malifaux 1.5" as the poll has it?

Speaking only for myself, but what I would say is that M2E, for me, really helped crystalize not only what I LIKED in M1E by virtue of some things being gone, BUT ALSO what I DISLIKED about M1E by virtue of getting it fixed in M2E.

So, while I like 10T and mercs being the only cross-faction things in M1E, now that I am used to new soulstones and pre-measure, it is pretty tough to deal with their loss.

So for me, its a little bit more like feeling a game of either can be frustrating because I feel the loss of the things that the other version has that I want.

And I do not want to feel frustrated when I play. M2E really shined a spotlight on M1E's problems to me. Thats the problem as I feel it.

[nix]

My 10 year old son competed in Malifaux masters 2 years ago.

If I remember correctly, he had a great time as well! If I really dig into the haze of my memory, he even played in the 30 person tournament and his 2nd round opponent ended up on the top table at the end of the event.

**snark on**

Your son must be wicked smaht (speaking with a New England accent) to have understood Malifaux V1 that young, considering how inaccessible it was!

*grin*

**snark off**

---------- Post added at 12:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:59 AM ----------

Man, This thread is just too much fun... every time I think I am out, it pulls me back in!

For someone to pick up how to use a crew so quickly really speaks volumes about the new ruleset.......either that or he could be a gaming genius orrrrrrrr....I just suck.....I'll sleep better believing it's the game.

Come on DGraz, after this long we know the truth..... *grin*

---------- Post added at 12:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 PM ----------

Speaking only for myself, but what I would say is that M2E, for me, really helped crystalize not only what I LIKED in M1E by virtue of some things being gone, BUT ALSO what I DISLIKED about M1E by virtue of getting it fixed in M2E.

So, while I like 10T and mercs being the only cross-faction things in M1E, now that I am used to new soulstones and pre-measure, it is pretty tough to deal with their loss.

So for me, its a little bit more like feeling a game of either can be frustrating because I feel the loss of the things that the other version has that I want.

And I do not want to feel frustrated when I play. M2E really shined a spotlight on M1E's problems to me. Thats the problem as I feel it.

That makes a lot of sense.

[Gruesome]

If I remember correctly, he had a great time as well! If I really dig into the haze of my memory, he even played in the 30 person tournament and his 2nd round opponent ended up on the top table at the end of the event.

**snark on**

Your son must be wicked smaht (speaking with a New England accent) to have understood Malifaux V1 that young, considering how inaccessible it was!

*grin*

**snark off**

His teachers beg to differ.

And yes, he had a blast. Yearly Adepticon for Malifaux has been a family vacation for us 3 years running. (Although I got mugged by Zombiecide this year)

[dgraz]

Come on DGraz, after this long we know the truth..... *grin*

:facepalm:

I would have lost respect for you if you hadn't taken that shot.

[Mako]

I was going to stay out of this, but it amazes me how many of the people that don't like M2E are determined to insult those that do, or claim that they actually mean they want 1.75 but are somehow unable to express it. Or the other favourite, insult the designers personally.

Lets begin with the claim that being good at 1.5 means you're really clever. It doesn't (but of course it's not mutually exclusive). It's a totally different skill set, involving (but I'm not saying it's limited to) memorising a slew of complex corner cases and stats.

Second, the fact that I prefer M2E does not make me wrong, just as preferring 1.5 doesn't make people wrong. I like depth but with lower complexity (I enjoy playing Go, by the way). 1.5 may have a bit more depth (though it's not a huge difference to my mind, I'll accept that it is there), but it comes at the cost of massive complexity. That's not my thing - if it's yours then fair enough, but that doesn't make either of us wrong.

I wouldn't even consider playing 1.5 after playing M2E, even though I've had my share of ass kickings and surprises in M2E. As Pierce said, the changes have really made me see what I didn't like about 1.5. I was surprised to find out how much there was on that list, honestly. The list of stuff I'll miss is pretty much bare, and the few things on it are under the bracket of 'I'll happily give X up to have Y changed'.

So, in summary: Could 1.5 have been rewritten and adjusted to be preferable to M2E? For me, no. It was too complex for its depth, and even streamlining the rulesets wouldn't have fixed that for me (Again, I'm not saying that people are wrong for saying they'd prefer that, but be fair - accept that I have the right to my opinion as well).

Is M2E perfect? No, of course not. But (my opinion) it's a huge improvement on 1.5, and benefitted greatly from being rewritten.

Wyrd made a decision to go in this direction, and it works really well for me. If it doesn't work well for you, that's unfortunate - I mean that genuinely, it must suck to have the game go a different direction to the one you'd have picked. But personal preferences vary, and Wyrd picked what they felt was best for the game and the company. Hopefully you either come to enjoy M2E, find a group of 1.5 enthusiasts (though supporting the old edition would be an unusual choice for a company, so I suspect you'll potentially not have that), or find another game that gives you what you want.

But please stop telling people that like M2E (or, for that matter, 1.5) that they're wrong and/or stupid. It doesn't help your argument.

Edited July 13, 2013 by Mako

[Dustcrusher]

True. Quit playing Malifaux is really the only option up there for some of us now. I'm only on the forums now to show my appreciation for peoples painting skill in the Miniature showcase. If people were to sit back and be forced to tell the truth (something so rare in this stupid world) I bet most would just say they wanted a better version of 1.5 with some minor tweaks for balance.

Poor choice of words, man. I am telling my truth, so I'll make it more blunt without being hostile to anyone:

Playing 1.5 was a chore for most of us here, even at the 25 stone level. We had a tournament a while back and I think maybe one game was finished in the entire tournament (we were alloted 90 minutes each round). I almost quit the hobby, thinking that I just couldn't wrap my head around miniatures games.

I discovered some other games that are simpler to play than 1.5, and oddly enough I started having fun with the hobby again. I felt like I was actually improving with each game, win or lose, and not losing because I forgot the 5th spell on that one model's stat card (as Razhem mentioned).

Is M2E perfect? No. I've gone over at least some of the reasons why. Thing is, we're having fewer rules disputes, new players are interested again, and we're actually enjoying it now. Your mileage clearly varies, and that's OK.

M2E is nothing like what I wanted.

That's a fair statement, and there's nothing wrong with your feeling that way. I just don't appreciate being told that my like of M2E is solely because I'm too chicken to say otherwise.

---------- Post added at 11:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 AM ----------

Also, if nothing else, I think Wyrd deserves kudos for making M2E a definitive change over 1.5, as opposed to some other companies I know who have been using the same tired, unwieldy, broken mechanics for years and have the nerve to just fiddle with things and call it a new edition.