Any Advice when facing Pandora?

[Gadrean]

Hi Guys,

A friend of mine and i have recently started Malifaux, i went for Ressers (seamus) and he picked up Neverborn (Dreamer). After getting my head around Dreamers antics and adding Bete to my crew this has always been a pretty close and fun match.

Last week i Picked up my second crew Nicodem along with a Grave Spirt, Crooked Men, Canine Remains and a Flesh Construct. My friend got a Pandora crew, Doppleganger and some other bits and pieces.

We had our first game with our new crews yesterday, i had Nico somewhere i thought he was safe. Pandy had a sorrow or 2 and the doppleganger linked to her and used the push from chain incite's from my minions to move herself to within 3" of Nico.

Then using Project Emotions and burning a soulstone gave me a -flip on my WP duels. Basically it ended with Nico falling back and being smacked for 3-4 damage from WP duels until he was a pile of mulch on the ground. I felt helpless, we realised that zombie fodder was no use and neither was his hard to wound 1 or the armour from the Grave Spirit. We ended the game there as i had no real way of winning at that point.

My question i guess is what to do VS Pandora?

How do you guys play against her?

My plan of using crooked men, decay and punk zombies to blast/indirect hit her didn't really get off the ground and i realised that her The Box Opens ability would mean my Flesh Construct would no longer be immune to WP duels. It is probably worth noting that my control hand was awfull all game and my opponent remarked that his were some of the best he'd had.

Thank you in advance for any advice/tips you can offer.

[PokiePrawn]

There are a couple things I have done against Pandora. The usual advice is blast and aura damage to take her out, but I have not been able to get that to work.

First, my advice is avoid her. Kill off her fast objective grabbing minions, send some mindless junk to slow her down, and complete your objectives. Maybe not the most fun thing to do, but it works.

Second, if you have to kill or engage her, I have always sent a couple fast minions up to her and tried to kill her with volume. Woes are easy to kill, then she can't win all the WP duels, and will burn SS/high cards to do this (this also prvents her from using them to attack). If you bombard her with zombies, punk zombies, necro punks (all summonable) then really only need 2-4 good hits to do the trick. If she is still alive, you may have to send in a SS minion or master, cheat high and hope for a good SS flip. If you do hit, make sure it counts.

That being said... I have never actually killed her, but pushed her on the defensive enough to keep her on her side of the table in contain power (I used Levi and had SPA's, punk zombies try to do the job).

Good luck. She is considered one of the least fun masters to play against, but I have enjoyed the chess like nature of my games against her.

[Blog]

Destroy her crew so she cant get VP. Or blow her up with AOE's (Nico, Crooked Men, etc)

[brib4169]

know your enemy

http://tabletopgeeks.com/wp-content/downloads/malifaux/tactica/PandoraTacticav2.2.doc

[Alviaran]

That despair is normal when facing Pandora.

Also, something to note is that the Sorrows don't follow her when she pushes via Fading Memories. They snap to her when she completes a Wk or ends her activation. Point is, it at least cuts down a LITTLE of what she can do to you when she tries to get that close since she needs to burn another AP to Wk once she has arrived to snap the Sorrows back to her.

[Pierowmaniac]

Drowned + Rogue Necromancy + Molly + Necrotic Machine = Lots of Blasts!

[iamthefly]

Target the sorrows with Nicodem's Decay and place the blast over whatever they are attached to. The attached model just takes the damage with no chance to defend and as Pandora wasn't the original target, you don't need to Wp test.

Spels must be cheated and stoned immediately when cast. If he puts down the suit for her trigger don't lose.

most neverborn minions are pretty easy to damage. Kill them like has been said. Unless he's using the kids who are more resilient, but less Killy.

try using jack daw to stop pandora cheating or stoning her wp duels to target her. Then mess her up good.

Von Schill gives bonuses to wp, not sure if its only to freikorps though.

Remember her models are not immune to influence inside her 12" bubble either.

Punk zombies slice and dice near her is deadly as she isn't targeted directly she is relying on her Df 2.

Most importantly IMO stop her incite or pacify chains. when I play as pandora that totally ruins my plans. It doesn't seem like much, it's her movement that is her greatest asset.

If you see an insidious madness, kill it.

Edited March 2, 2013 by iamthefly

[Fetid Strumpet]

Von Schill's WP bonus is only for Morale duels. Pandora doesn't cause any. She can make you count as failing one, but she never actually causes one, so Von Schill's Hard Ass ability doesn't do anything vs her in general.

My advice, at least the way I play her, is to watch her hand and stone count. Pandora's weakness and one of her strengths is that she can take on an entire crew herself. That's a weakness because it means her whole hand is often required to keep her alive. Watch her hand, target her minions and try to kill them. If she doesn't cheat that works for you because you'll kill her minions faster. If she does cheat that's good too, drain her hand and once she is low or out target her with everything. Her best and only defenses are her WP duel and the feeling of hopelessness she herself causes. Once you are through her WP duel she drops fast as her Df is 2 and she only has 8 Wounds.

Target her minions, watch her hand, watch her positioning, and the moment she is weak hit her with everything in your arsenal.

[amor sanguinis]

That despair is normal when facing Pandora.

Also, something to note is that the Sorrows don't follow her when she pushes via Fading Memories. They snap to her when she completes a Wk or ends her activation. Point is, it at least cuts down a LITTLE of what she can do to you when she tries to get that close since she needs to burn another AP to Wk once she has arrived to snap the Sorrows back to her.

I pritty sure they do fallow her.

---------- Post added at 03:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 PM ----------

Oh and get Zorada. Wp10. Nothing like watching her eat threw her hand and ss in three turns.

[EnternalVoid]

Look for a chance to kill the Doppelganger and Sorrow if possible. Necropunks and other faster cheap options are worth considering. Pandora really is not the sort that likes alot of cheap minions that can spread out a bit. She likes expensive SS models that allows her to focus her might against a large part of your crew with only a few spells. Self Loathing on a Necropunk or Canine Remain is not the most rewarding use of her AP. More so her and her models don't like the Overpower or Hunting Dog abilities of these models. A Slow Pandora is one that is losing a fourth of what she can do in a turn *2 general AP, one casting expert, and one (0) Action*. And her Sorrows and Doppelganger don't like it either. Or the -2 Defense on Hunting Dogs, as it drops their Df to a level that even canines can overpower them.

Pandora does not like being out activated either, as she like several masters prefers the ability to get back to back activations. Going last and then First the next turn is very ideal for her.

It is not uncommon for Pandora to have one or no heavy hitters, something that depends on the player. If Pandora lacks a heavy hitter then losing her support pieces leaves her as the only model capable of doing anything. It is why some of the players in our area like having a Mature Nephilim or Coppelius with her to have something that can try and support her if things have swarmed into her face and her minions and she needs some extra AP to clear it out. But often if they have said heavy hitter they had to divert the SS from somewhere else in the list, like reduced support models or the Doppelganger.

---------- Post added at 06:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:56 PM ----------

I pritty sure they do fallow her.

Nope. Link states: "This Model and target model in base contact with it are Linked. After the model this model is Linked to completes a Walk action or ends its activation, Push this model into base contact with the Linked model. Link ends if the two models are not in base contact at the Start Closing Phase."

So if she is pushed, it is neither a Walk or the end of her activation. So if Pandora uses Fading Memory to move on up the field so she can get to someone, like Nicedom in this case, she will not drag her cadre with her unless after getting up there she uses an AP to do a Walk action and pop them to her. She can, namely if she wants the extra damage, but it is an AP she has to use to do it.

[Kalkris]

Might I suggest making use of Seamus to go up against Pandora? As a Pandora player myself, I hate dealing with blasts and other AOE effects. Anything with a high enough WP is a nuisance for me.

Hopefully for the sake of more balanced games, you will find models which might meet such criteria.

~Lil Kalki

[Mehter]

Most of my success comes from using Seamus and Sue.

Having +2 WP while handing out -2 seals the deal on most games. The rest of the list can be made according to personal preference.

[Gadrean]

Nope. Link states: "This Model and target model in base contact with it are Linked. After the model this model is Linked to completes a Walk action or ends its activation, Push this model into base contact with the Linked model. Link ends if the two models are not in base contact at the Start Closing Phase."

So if she is pushed, it is neither a Walk or the end of her activation. So if Pandora uses Fading Memory to move on up the field so she can get to someone, like Nicedom in this case, she will not drag her cadre with her unless after getting up there she uses an AP to do a Walk action and pop them to her. She can, namely if she wants the extra damage, but it is an AP she has to use to do it.

Ah neither of us realised that, thats good to know for future games. If she was Lured by a belle for example would her Linked entourage be dragged with her then? as it is outside of her activation. I'd also used a belle to lure Nico up the table too so i guess that it should have broken the Grave Spirits link to him also?

Thank you all for your advice when facing Pandora, im looking forward to having another stab at her and trying some of the useful tips you have given me.

[SoulG]

Congratulations! You picked one of the Rezzer's best answers to Pandora. The key models to beating Pandora are, in no particular order: The Drowned, Crooked Men, Sue, Vultures, Von Schill, Freikorps Trapper. You may not want all of those in the same list.

The priority target is not Pandora per say (it is, kinda, but kinda not). The priorities are the Doppelganger and the Totem. Thankfully, you have an ample supply of blasts and you won't actually have to worry too much about picking your target.

The first key is the Eyes and Ears ability. It lets Nicodem target people through the Vulture. This is important because the person doing to the targetting can be more than 12" away from Pandora, meaning her defenses don't trigger. This means she's open to being chain-paralyzed every turn. This is priority #1. A paralyzed Pandora is a sad Pandora. Then you can lay down blasts on her Crew from relative safety. Eat the -2 to Ca, spend all of your high cards, spend all of your soulstones. Accept that Nicodem will die later on.

The Drowned are surprisingly effective when boosted by Nicodem, and have a plethora of abilities that can harm Pandora and clusters, which Pandora relies on.

Crooked Men have Wp 9 and access to Blasts. They replace whatever as your shock-troops. Note that this won't actually stop Pandora, but it will force her to spend Soulstones. Crooked Men are surprisingly effective against most of the Neverborn, by the way.

Sue can provide willpower (de)buffs and is a solid attack model.

Another person to consider is Von Schill. He won't help against Pandora herself, but he has a decent Willpower, Use Soulstones, and the ability to snipe the Doppelganger. Sniping the Doppelganger is priority #2, after paralyzing Pandora.

The Trapper can snipe Pandora from outside of her aura. He won't be particularly effective, but given the right terrain he can be used to split the opponent's forces.

[Mike3838]

The first key is the Eyes and Ears ability. It lets Nicodem target people through the Vulture. This is important because the person doing to the targetting can be more than 12" away from Pandora, meaning her defenses don't trigger

I don't follow. I think her defenses all still work. The only difference is that Nicodem doesn't take a Wd if he fails to penetrate them.

---------- Post added at 10:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 AM ----------

Ah neither of us realised that, thats good to know for future games. If she was Lured by a belle for example would her Linked entourage be dragged with her then? as it is outside of her activation. I'd also used a belle to lure Nico up the table too so i guess that it should have broken the Grave Spirits link to him also?

That's sorta correct.

Moving by *any* means except the (1) Walk action means that the linked model does not move with you.

This includes all sources of push, and Lure.

After Nicodem was Lured, if you activate him and he walks (later in the same turn) then Link hasn't yet broken (it only breaks in the End Close Phase) and so the GS would push into B2B. Likewise if the GS moved up next to Nico, the Link would be maintained.

[EnternalVoid]

Ah neither of us realised that, thats good to know for future games. If she was Lured by a belle for example would her Linked entourage be dragged with her then? as it is outside of her activation. I'd also used a belle to lure Nico up the table too so i guess that it should have broken the Grave Spirits link to him also?

Thank you all for your advice when facing Pandora, im looking forward to having another stab at her and trying some of the useful tips you have given me.

Mike3838 has it, Link is not broken tilll the end of the turn. So as long as you Lure, push, or move how ever, then you activate and either walk or end the Linked models activation you can still snap to said linked model. Example:

Your Belle had moved first turn and now second turn, you want to move Nico up the field so he can get as many paralyze attempts in as he can. Nico being the slow man he is though does not want to waste the AP walking so you use Lure Twice to get him that extra range. At this point the Grave Spirit does not snap to him, as he did not take a walk action or end his activation at this point. If your opponent attacks Nico at this point he does not have the +2 Armor.

Now Nico activates and launches some spells. If he did not take a walk action the Grave Spirit can't snap to him at this time till you declare that Nico's activation is done, at which case the secondary clause for Link kicks in and you can snap the Grave Spirit to him.

A good way to mess up a Pandora cadre is to, after Pandora has activate, lure or push the pieces so they are no longer together. If you can pull Pandora great, as you can remove all the link at once possibly, but more likely you are stripping pieces of her group off as they are easier to target and push around. If they don't get back by the end of the turn they will break link this way. The best one to do this too is the Doppelganger if they have it linked to her, as it takes the most to get it linked back on and that means a turn of it not copying offensive or defensive abilities.

[Letux]

Take Von Shill and 8 stones. Use the stones on the wp duel to shoot her. Works really well if you find the red joker.

[Clement]

I flattened her over I think a single activation using Nico by bouncing Decay off of a Woe/Mindless zombie.

1) Decay into the woe, cheat high and ss if you're paranoid. You need severe damage and the empty vesel trigger (remember woes are living models). This gets 3 damage on Pandy and replaces the Woe with a zombie.

2) Cast decay again, this time on the MZ. Since it's uncontrolled you just need to hit an 11 on the cast to get a straight flip or 16 for the extra flip. Take the Empty Vessel trigger again because you will likely kill the zombie, replacing it with another zombie. This gets another 3 damage onto Pandy.

3) Do it again! You just need moderate damage to finish her off.

[Ryu]

Ryu's 3 step guide to killing Pandora:

1) Shoot her

2) Is she dead?

3) If not, shoot her again

In all honesty though, what I'd add to the conversation is obscuring effects: Vent Steam, Creepy Fog - make Pandora a sad panda.

[Pierowmaniac]

Most of my success comes from using Seamus and Sue.

Having +2 WP while handing out -2 seals the deal on most games. The rest of the list can be made according to personal preference.

Oh yeah I forgot I had Sue in my Seamus crew when I beat Pandora

As well as the WP buffs mentioned above, Sue even has a spell that shuts down pandoras Incite/Pacify tricks.

[marful]

As a Pandora player, let me discuss her strengths and glaring weaknesses.

First off, as was previously stated, if a Doppleganger is on the board, kill this first ASAP.

As to Her strengths, as far as her staying alive, it is via Expose Fears, where anyone targeting her has to win a WP duel or the action ends. This is the only defense she has. Her actual Df is a 2 (I believe the lowest in the game?).

So, the simple solution is: don't target her.

Her other main defensive ability is tied to Expose Fears called Fading Memories which allows her to push up to 4" when winning a Wp duel. This allows her to get out of melee by pushing out of it.

You can easily control this by positioning/summoning models to block where she can push too, or dropping Cave In markers around her making her not want to use Fading Memory.

Another thing to remember is that her primary means of mobility is via Fading Memories triggering off of either Incite or Pacify which she can keep casting (all for that same 0 action) until she fails the Wp duel. So, cheat high to stop her from triggering Fading Memories. The Pandora player has to make a choice of cheating a high card from their hand, or burning a stone, else you've just shut down the Pandora player's attack run for that turn.

Either way, you win. As I'll explain below:

Rezzers have several amazing tools at their disposal that can kill Pandora with ease. The first of which is the Crooked Man which can kill Pandora via one of two ways.

The main way is to target a model near Pandora, say a Sorrow in base contact with her, or even one of your own models and have the Crooked Man cast Cave In. With :blast on the moderate damage and :blast on the severe, it's supper easy to touch Pandora even up to 3.94" to 5.9" away (for reference a 50mm base = 1.96"). With a Wd of only 8, Pandora will die quick.

Another way for the Crooked Man is to drop multiple Shafted markers right at her feet. With a damage spread of 1-7 = 3 Dg, 8-13 Paralyze, Joker = Dead, Pandora ain't going anywhere. Combine this with a Rotten Belle spamming Lure for a few turns and you've either locked down Pandora + that area of the board and you will eventually win a Wp duel with the Belle and Pandora will take a step and die. A Belle with 8 wounds has 9 tries to get this right before it dies (8 wounds to lose + Slow to Die). And if it does die, so what. You're a rezzer, summon a new one and do it all over again!

Punk Zombies are another great model that can kill Pandora and everything else around her with ease via Slice and Dice since it's a and never targets Pandora specifically and thus bypasses Expose Fears.

My favorite (and I do this a lot against highly defensive models) is with Nicodemus and Necropunk Zombies, Canine Remains or even mindless Zombies. Simply target these models with Decay, thus allowing you to cheat down their resists, getting a positive flip on damage and then blasting onto Pandora for 3 Dg.

Seamus can use Thrall of Fear to drop Pandora's WP from 7 to 5, and then use a Belle and a Crooked Man to do the pit of death again (summon 2 Cave Ins with the crooked man, and cast Lure a few times = dead Pandora).

In the case of McMorning, just cheat+soulstone the WP duel and destroy her in melee with Dissection. Anything with use soulstone has a good shot of just destroying her particularly with a damage spread of 1/5/10. Remember, her Df is only 2 verses McMorning's Ca of 7, that is a +5 advantage to McMorning. With a cast of 15 + soulstone, the Pandora player is going to need a seriously high card to cheat and seriously high card to soulstone, or she is dead.

And remember how the Pandora player burned stones or cheated high to keep their Pacify / Incite chain going by moving around with Fading Memories? Yeah, now she is out of high cards or low/out of soulstones. You have a +5 Advantage due to the difference in Ca vs. her Df. Kill her.

I hope this helps!

Edited March 7, 2013 by marful

[Spifferson]

I have yet to face Pandora so thank you everyone for the advice.

What schemes would you recommend taking against a Pandora crew?

I have yet to face her but I would be tempted to hire a Canine Remains and place -Frame for Murder- on it. Keep the dog hidden and safe until it can run up to Pandora and lose a wp duel with her, die and net 1-2 VP's

[CrouchingMoose]

I have yet to face Pandora so thank you everyone for the advice.

What schemes would you recommend taking against a Pandora crew?

I have yet to face her but I would be tempted to hire a Canine Remains and place -Frame for Murder- on it. Keep the dog hidden and safe until it can run up to Pandora and lose a wp duel with her, die and net 1-2 VP's

Thats actually a great trick for taking pandora and is one of the few times id suggest beating your own dog. There is also no reason not to announce it since it can keep your opponent away from you if they dont want you to get the points, or otherwise you get 2 easy vp.

[Mordeqai]

I'm not sure if it works, because I've never tried it, but you could technically get the Dead Rider more than 12" away, but within 13", and charge her (10" charge, 3" melee). He keeps his Immune to Influence since he's over 12", and since he IS Immune to Influence, he does't take the Wp > Wp duel to target her (Since the targeting happens at > 12")

---------- Post added at 05:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:22 PM ----------

I'm not sure if it works, because I've never tried it, but you could technically get the Dead Rider more than 12" away, but within 13", and charge her (10" charge, 3" melee). He keeps his Immune to Influence since he's over 12", and since he IS Immune to Influence, he does't take the Wp > Wp duel to target her (Since the targeting happens at > 12")

[Ausplosions]

I'm not sure if it works, because I've never tried it, but you could technically get the Dead Rider more than 12" away, but within 13", and charge her (10" charge, 3" melee). He keeps his Immune to Influence since he's over 12", and since he IS Immune to Influence, he does't take the Wp > Wp duel to target her (Since the targeting happens at > 12")

---------- Post added at 05:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:22 PM ----------o

I'm not sure if it works, because I've never tried it, but you could technically get the Dead Rider more than 12" away, but within 13", and charge her (10" charge, 3" melee). He keeps his Immune to Influence since he's over 12", and since he IS Immune to Influence, he does't take the Wp > Wp duel to target her (Since the targeting happens at > 12")

Immune to influence wouldn't prevent that test anyway because he is not the defender....