Avatars, anyone use them?

[tremere47]

I am new to the game, using Rasputina mainly and working on Kirai. I really love the Avatar models for both these ladies and was wondering if anyone uses Avatars in their crews on a regular basis? As I understand it there is no cost to taking the model. I plan to not deliberately try to get the Avatar in every game, but if I get close to fulfilling the requirements I might try to go for it. I don't mean just these 2 Avatars, but in general.

Is there any real downside to having the Avatar?

[Dumb Luck]

You have to pay two stones for an Avatar.

As for weither or not manifesting is a downside, there are only two downsides to them. Firstly, some require two turns of set up (ARamos and ASomer) which gives the foe time to move across the board. Secondly, some just aren't as good as the base master.

[DeleteAccount]

I do, but it's mostly agreed that all of the resser avatars are pretty damn spiffy (aKirai being the least liked, but I still love using her)

[Toonook]

I've used kirais avatar but didn't get much out of it, though that was probably just through lack of experience. Raspy's seems like an insurance policy for if she gets swamped in melee, avatar up and change focus.

[Bruglyother]

I use aViks and aRamos. I don't use them all the time, and I probably don't use them the same as many others as I tend to go for a later game manifest on aRamos. But, for certain strategies they can be quite useful. As has been mentioned, a lot will depend on whose avatar you are discussing. Some do seem to be less than the original master. Others are clear improvements. Some just amplify what the master already does. Perhaps the most frustrating though are the ones that completely change the tone. If you build your crew around the base master, the avatar does not work, but if you build around the avatar, you are hindering the base master. I guess ultimately it will be a matter of opinion.

[Omenbringer]

As has been mentioned, a lot will depend on whose avatar you are discussing. Some do seem to be less than the original master. Others are clear improvements. Some just amplify what the master already does. Perhaps the most frustrating though are the ones that completely change the tone. If you build your crew around the base master, the avatar does not work, but if you build around the avatar, you are hindering the base master. I guess ultimately it will be a matter of opinion.

This is so true in a lot of circumstances. The only thing that I will add is that working to manifest as fast as possible is also usually a losing proposition with them (as Dumb Luck hints at, it removes your Master from the general game by dictating what he will do for at least a few turns)

[Gruesome]

I almost always include Avatars with Nicodem, Seamus and McMourning. (I do not own Kirai's yet)

I used to try to manifest pretty quick with all of them.

This was not good, IMO. (And probably most people's opinion)

Manifesting is a 2 soul stone tool to keep in your pocket for when its needed. You can be the sort of person that saves it for an emergency or you can be the sort that looks to setup a situation where the event will surprise your opponent and/or mess them up.

There are all sorts of opinions on what avatars are best, middle, worst, etc.

There are all sorts of opinions on whether you should take them always, sometimes, never.

I think you will learn where you are by just playing.

Personally, I cannot think of 2 points better spent for the potential for change, even if its never used, its still a threat... But that's just my view.

[Korrosion]

Personally, I cannot think of 2 points better spent for the potential for change, even if its never used, its still a threat... But that's just my view.

Avatar Levi? Completing the requirements on turn 2 means a turn 3 manifest at the earliest. Then a 2 action to summon a rider means the soonest Alevi does anything is turn 5. Good job, you made the deadliest master less then useful for 4/6 game turns.

[Dumb Luck]

This is so true in a lot of circumstances. The only thing that I will add is that working to manifest as fast as possible is also usually a losing proposition with them (as Dumb Luck hints at, it removes your Master from the general game by dictating what he will do for at least a few turns)

Although I would say ASomer out of all the Sit-There-For-Two-Turns Masters is the most viable since he can gain Reactivate and the crew can get him in the action fairly quick.

[LupusFerreus]

aSonnia is pretty damn tasty. Although yes, it does make me do certain things for a few turns. Am I right in thinking you can manifest at any point in the turn you fulfill the requirements?

[Adran]

You can manifest at any point in the models activation (after turn 1) as long have you have done at least one of the requirements and have the action points (or 0 action) left to do the Manifest action.

You could forfill both requirements in turn 1 and then not manifest until turn 4 if you wanted (or not ever manifest). The Action doesn't need to be in a turn you did a requirement

[Toonook]

McMourning's is a funny one, it is brutal and since he needs to be out there carving people up he gets the requirements just by being him. Only problem with it is that by the time you've hacked up enough enemies to manifest you've usually already got the game in the bag....

[Huang Da Wei]

I have recently got aSeamus, love the model and all the fluff that goes with the crazy guy.

He can only summon belles and that goes away when he manifests so I think you have to be careful when he 'comes out'. But when he does arrive it is loads of fun.

[Gruesome]

Avatar Levi? Completing the requirements on turn 2 means a turn 3 manifest at the earliest. Then a 2 action to summon a rider means the soonest Alevi does anything is turn 5. Good job, you made the deadliest master less then useful for 4/6 game turns.

uh... ok?

Don't manifest him then?

collodi sucks

[AdrianMills]

Used aLilith, aZoraida regular and aPandora for claim jump. Played my first game with aMcMourning last night and it is brutal looking forward to aNicodem coming in the post soon.

Got aHamlin and aLevi assembled and ready to paint but not played any games with them yet

[Twisted Metal]

Bringing another rider into play is hardly a waste of AP. Also if you have better thing to do then don't summon one.

[Forar]

In my group of 7 players thus far we have 2 avatars, and only one has seen table time (once, two weeks ago); aRasputina. I wasn't playing against her, but it seemed to be an interesting aspect to the battle.

The other thus far is aSonnia, whom I have not fielded yet.

There is interest in getting others, but the expense and trade offs have kept their availability and use down. Personally, as a Guild player, I'm not entirely sold on aHoffman or aPerdita, in terms of what they give up versus what they gain. I only rarely use Lady Justice, so I doubt I'll get that anytime soon, given that one of our other players uses her pretty much exclusively.

I know our local Neverborn player is interested in a few of those ones, but far as I know has yet to pull the trigger on any.

[CannonFodder]

Some avatars are definitely worth rushing to manifest, and building your crew around.

• Ramos
  
• Seamus
  
• Nicodem
  
• Levi
  

Others are good models to have, and when you can manifest, to go for it. You don't rush for it, but well worth taking.

• McMourning
  
• Zoraida
  
• Sonia
  
• Somer
  
• Hamelin
  
• Vikis
  

Others are models you pay to have an optional plan B if things go bad late game.

• Raspy
  
• Kirai
  

Lastly are avatars that were made because they needed to make one for each master and they wanted something different for people to try for the sake of it and do something different.

• Collette
  
• Perdita
  
• Hoffman
  
• Dreamer
  
• Lady J
  
• Marcus
  
• Lilith
  
• Pandora
  

I consider the first 2 list worth buying the avatars, the second are if your feel like it. But won't see play regularly.

[WaywardSun13]

It seems like every Sonnia player I play against always rushes to get her on the board (which is why I rush to deprive them of that opportunity).

I've had some luck with aJustice, but I've never actually tried running aViks. I did the minis up to be complete, but for those masters I usually find the two SS spent somewhere else. aJustice is pretty situational, so I usually run her in Claim Jump or something that requires a little more resilience. I think a lot of the avatars are like that, other than the ones people are always trying to get out early (ex aRamos, aSonnia). I certainly think that you can win (or enjoy) just as many games without the avatars as you can with them.

It'll be interesting to see if we get another round of avatars and if they'll be any different.

[nix]

I only have 3 avatars painted up currently, and 4 more in the "To Paint" box for some point in the future.

aSonnia and aJustice I use a lot. I would not agree with Cannonfodder on where I place aJustice. She is one of the avatars I would put in the second list. While not at the same level as aSeamus/aRamos/aSonnia, she certainly sees play and brings an excellent dynamic to her crew.

aZoraida is painted and I have used her, but its an off and on type of deal. She is a fantastic avatar but she is a shift from Master Zoraida. I rarely see instances where you would go wrong adding her, but equally rare are the instances where you would go wrong not adding her. She is fun to use, and I carry her in my case and toss her in lists regularly.

I also have aKirai, aRaspy, aDreamer, and aCollette. I will play aCollette in fun games, but I think she is an actual down-grade to her Master. She is mostly there for a laugh and to toss into lists for giggles.

aDreamer is one I am interested in seeing on the table, but mostly due to my love of Dreamer. I am still of the opinion that getting aDreamer out ends up in a situation where you already have the game in hand and then you manifest him. I do not believe he is bad in any way, just not an absolute improvement over his Master form. With the right opponent I think the games will be fun, but with the wrong opponent I think he can be a NPE.

aKirai and aRaspy I have almost no experience with. aRaspy I agree is an O'Crap avatar that you manifest in bad situations. aKirai is probably similar, as she appears to be more of a late game manifest.

[Forar]

As I've noted several times in my group, the rules for avatars specifically say that you have to state you have attached an avatar to your master, but not which one. Obviously, right now it's pretty clear, but it seems like a nice idea that they built into the mechanic well in advance; that one day we might have multiple avatars per figure.

It'd be a possible route to go with for Book 5; round out the 'standard' things missing from the 10 Thunders (avatars, an effigy, a henchman, etc) and a second round of avatars for everyone (of course, 34+ avatars might be a bit much in terms of varried mechanics and a balancing nightmare), along with a few figures per faction.

Though it might not fly due to the release schedule necessitating 3-4+ avatars per month, which I can only imagine could be a production nightmare, especially with how large and complicated they can be.

[notmikehill]

I love the idea of avatars. I love that it's a shift in power and less of a power upgrade for masters. I think the overall internet mentality of the avatars is that most of them are under used, under powered, and usually a waste of a desperate mercenary.

I think that in most ideas the models themselves have yet to be explored because of their bad reputation. One player just recently wrote a nice summary of how he misjudged Avatar Marcus as whole and how he can be devastating in hit and run attacks.

I think that my personal opinion is I honestly don't know with Avatars. I love them and how they work but I'm weary towards the idea of adding them. Can I build a list around Apandora? Will Adreamer be more valuable than another daydream I may need? How do I build around Azoraida to a great success for the objectives I'm trying to succeed with?

It adds another level of gameplay and I don't think many of us have explored it yet.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I think it's safe to say that the reaction to Avatars has been mixed at this point. For those that aren't really wowed by them, what could be changed to bring you around?

[MudgeBlack]

I really like the idea that, as someone on here put it so well (sorry can't remember who it was), "Avatars are less of a step up than they are a step sideways". They often totally change how the master plays (like changing a support caster to a melee beastie). Now I only play ASeamus so far (just because I can't decide which avatar to get next, keep changing between APandora, AViks, ACrid, etc. I WANT AVATAR OPHELIA!!!!) so my opinion might be a little biased but I think they are a great OPTION, not a requirement.

[dgraz]

For those that aren't really wowed by them, what could be changed to bring you around?

Isn't there a character limit in each post? I don't think I could fit the 'book' that would be needed to answer that in one post.

They are far too hit or miss. Some are good some aren't (respect to the guy that wrote that glowing review of AMarcus....but I couldn't disagree more). Some are auto-include and some aren't. Some augment what the master already does and some shift their abilities 180 degrees.

My biggest issue is as Bruglyother said above about needing different crews to work for the Avatar and the base master. This game has so much synergy in it, that if you aren't taking models that work well together then you're handicapping yourself (Marcus' biggest problem IMO). A few of them need no change at all.....Sonnia's crew is the same as ASonnia's crew.....the disparity between them is an issue.

This problem augmented by their cost to game ratio takes many of them right off my list. If I'm going to buy a $40+ model, I want to put it on the table....sometimes you get killed before you manifest, sometimes it isn't worth manifesting (because it would put you in a worse position), and sometimes you don't manifest until late game...I just don't feel like I get my money's worth out of them.

I know that playtesting things like this can be extremely difficult, so I'm not knocking any of the people that worked on the Avatars....testing a varied list of models is tough enough, but Avatars are high power and probably require more testing than usual.

I think there should be test groups going at all times.....just to work on problem models. I don't know the answer to when you release new rules/fixes....as you finalize them? or do you wait for an entire re-write?

A lot of my thoughts on them goes much deeper than I can adequately express here and each one should be looked at individually. I'm not bashing them, I just feel that some hit the mark better than others and that most of the problem ones just need a few tweaks to get there.....there are only a couple that need more than that.

Edited November 16, 2012 by dgraz