Crooligans vs Necropunks

[Twisted Metal]

For some reason I am having a very difficult time trying to decided between the Crooligans and the Necropunks. As a result I started to basicly write out the pro and cons of both in a poor attempt to make up my mind. I would love to hear any thoughts, criticisms, or comments. Awyway…

Stats: Both have almost an identical stat line with the exception of 1" less of charge and 1 less Cb on the crooligans. The Crooligans have a mask on their cast. Their melee range and wounds are the same. I think the Crooligans win this category despite their short comings. This is because mask on the cast is far more important than the extra charge distance or Cb.

Damage: The base damage is the same except the Crooligans have poison and have the potential to do an extra point via malignant rot. The Necropunks can flurry and have the rot trigger which gives the potential to inflict more damage overall. I think Necropunks win this category hands down. I feel that the crooligans can use their knife as a last resort to finish something off but a Necropunk that gets off flurry can not only finish something off but take down a whole model by its self.

Defense: Both models have strong defenses however both are radically different. The Necropunk has the incredibly annoying combo of hard to kill and slow to die. This allows him remain at one wound regardless of the amount of damage he just suffered. This means that your opponent has to dedicate at least two standard attacks to get rid of him. If the attacker is slowed from the overpower ability then more likely than not those two attacks will have to come from two different sources. Once you finally remove the necropunk's last wound he still has one final AP to either punch you with or to do some other 1ap action such as bring in Kill Joy.

The Crooligans have a very different defense which also has several components to it. Where the Necropunks have the ability to survive an attack the Crooligans defend themselves by denying the attack from happening. At the forefront of their defense is a spell called The Mist. It generates a 3” aura which counts as Obscuring. Basically they live by the moto you can’t shoot something you cant see. In addition when the Mist is active they gain a bonus to their walk and to their defense stat. So not only can you not shoot them because of they are obscured but you will have a difficult time hitting them in melee as well. The final piece to their defense is a trigger called the mists embrace. This trigger grants the crooligans the spirit characteristic until the end of the turn. This will reduce the wounds suffered from additional attacks by half (unless its magical) I think the one advantage the Necropunk’s defense has over the crooligans is that it is always active. The Crooligans need to cast the mist in order to be safe. Until they do they are vulnerable.

The winner of this category is the Crooligans. The need for the mist should just be an incentive to activate this model asap. Just hope to flip a high enough card or plan on cheating.

Mobility: The walks are the same but from this point the similarities between these two stop. Although they are both very mobile both move around the board in very different ways. The Necropunk’s have the potential to get leap which will allow them to basically fly 7 inches in any direction as a 0 action. This however requires both a 6 Masks or higher which is far from a certain thing. If you combine leap with a double walk and the models arachnid ability this model could potentially move up to 15” while ignoring most terrain penalties. The crooligans on the other hand have a more deceiving form of movement. If a crooligan has the mist active he will gain +2 to his walk giving him a walk of 6. In addition the crooligan can take a free walk action after it interacts with an objective. The problem lies in that no matter how you try and work it the A SINGLE crooligan could only ever travel a max distance of 8 inches (4+4 from a double walk). However the Crooligan’s movement becomes almost limitless if you have more than one on the board. By using the action “curiosity” calls the Crooligan can basically teleport itself to another Crooligan that is affected by the Mist. There is no range restriction to this ability. Furthermore their ability “from the shadows” will allow them to deploy closer to the objectives. This will help make up for their lack of ground pounding abilities. Over all I think the mobility category is a tie. The Necropunk can cover great distances by himself and in some instances still have the ability to interact with an objective. The crooligans require at least two to get their true mobility but their mobility via walking is limited. However when using Curiosity calls the distance they can tavel is unmatched. I guess what it really comes down to is what you need the mobility for.

Cost: Necropunks 3 : Crooligans 4. It doesn’t really seem like that big of a difference but there is a slight catch. Since you need two Necropunks for the over power trigger and two crooligans for the curiosity calls ability I’m am almost always going to be taking either of these models as a pair. If that’s the case then the difference between them is 2ss. Can I afford to spend the extra 2 ss for the crooligans and if I do what sacrifices am I going to make elsewhere in my list.

Verdict: Still undecided!!! I think the biggest thing that is keeping me from proclaiming Crooligans as the winner is the extra 2ss that I am going to have to find in my lists. Besides that I love their abilities and think that over all they have more options and more of an annoyance factor about them. I would love to hear your thoughts.

P.S. This is why I love Malifaux. It is rare that a choice is clear cut and simple.

[gnam]

I'll also throw in the added comment about Crooligans being a Special Forces model, so they limit what else you can hire.

If you bring Crooligans you can't summon a Rogue Necromancy unless Molly is also in the crew. Also, the Crooligans keep you from bringing Von Schills or the Carrion Effigy.

Overall I like the Crooligans, but like anything else they are situational to your build and the strategies/schemes you are dealing with. However, if I had to pick one, it would likely be the Necropunks as they are cheaper and don't limit what else you can take.

[rancor709]

I have both types of models as well as Night Terrors. When playing Nico I've been tending towards using necropunks simply because of the raising restricitons and the punk can still operate fairly well if only 1 is on the table. If your opponent kills 1 of your cooligans their ability is significantly cuddled. However the idea of advance deploying 2 3in obscuring templates early in the game is interesting as well as snagging objectives rapidly. I'll have to play around with the cooligans more to see if on the table they perform as well as the trusty rusty necropunk.

[Dustcrusher]

I'd want to take 3 if I use them, so I'd probably use them mostly with Molly. Without her, it'd depend on the situation as to whether or not 2 Crooligans are worth my Necropunk trio.

[fritz the cat]

I've been looking at the special events and special terrain alot of late to add more depth to my games, and I think their inclusion makes the crooligans a very tempting include. The number of extra things to (1) interact with that have both interesting and valuable effects make the crooligans seem like a superior choice. At the end of the day it really comes down to the strategies for me. If its something thats going to require (2) actions to pull off the necropunks seem way better, If its a large number of (1) interactions I think crooligans are a better choice.

[DeadFingers]

The necropunks are much faster, cheaper, more damaging, always leave corpses (crooligans will almost always have the spirit characteristic when they die), don't restrict your troops choices, and don't rely on molly for early game movement.

The crooligans are more endurant but once your opponent figures out how to get around the mist (attacks that ignore Los, some derivative of dispel magic, etc.) they get dead real fast. Endurance can be a big deal, but if that's what you're looking for in a 3-4ss model the night terror outshines both options.

As an objective model the crooligan's tricks usually don't help much, you'll never be interacting enough for always on the move to make a big difference and the extra wk from the mist is situational as you usually want to keep them in one area to give your crew cover, and providing cover would be the only reason I wouldn't totally write off the crooligans. The mist is a fantastic spell that can block Los to a huge chunk of your crew for a few turns while you move up the board, and that is something that can win you games with the melee-heavy resurrectionists.

If you're looking for an objective grabber/troop model the necropunks are the better option and night terrors are even better still. One or two crooligans to block Los can still be a viable choice, just make sure you know what to expect out of them.

[Q'iq'el]

If you bring Crooligans you can't summon a Rogue Necromancy unless Molly is also in the crew.

I believe this is wrong. You can hire up to 2 Special Forces models (if you skip Molly, which I'm not sure why would you do ), and you can have only one Special Force in the crew, but that doesn't limit you from summoning more than 2 SF minions.

As long as you Summon (and not hire) the Rogue Necromancy, you're OK.

Also, the Crooligans keep you from bringing Von Schills or the Carrion Effigy.

That's true.

I had no practical experience with Crooligans yet, but I think it's safe to say Necropunks are slightly better fighters.

As to mobility, I think the OP greatly underestimated Crooligans. Teleportations are immensely powerful in Malifaux, especially if you play on terrain intensive table or Terraclips. Ability to zap back to the other Crooligan or to teleport back to the crew's Leader when attacked are simply crazy.

7" leap is not as good - in theory they move faster, in practice terrain and other models will get in the way and cut some distance from the movement (not to mention never getting the right cards when one really needs it).

At least on the tables I've been using recently (almost exclusively Terraclips), I think Crooligans will perform much better in their role.

[fritz the cat]

Hrm, on the point of terraclips terrain with crooligans... how does the Ht3 fog interact with multiple floors? does the floor stop it, or can it effect multiple levels?

[Mawdrigen]

well judging by the answers I got on my summoning questions I would say it forms an infinitely high (above and below) cylinder 3" out from the crooligan.

The ability doesn't mention "On this elevation"

[gnam]

I believe this is wrong. You can hire up to 2 Special Forces models (if you skip Molly' date=' which I'm not sure why would you do ), and you can have only one Special Force in the crew, but that doesn't limit you from summoning more than 2 SF minions.[/quote']

This has been discussed in the rules forums, and to date there is not official ruling on whether or not you can summon additional special forces models.

The Rules Manual states "A crew may include up to two Faction or Mercenary Model with the special forces characteristic per leader in their Crew."

It says nothing about hiring (which is does refer to in other places), it says contains which could include summoning.

So ya, until this is resolved, I'd be very careful of building strategies around summoning a Third SF model into a crew without the henchman.

Edited November 10, 2011 by gnam

[Q'iq'el]

@Gnam

I think you are confused as to the nature of the problem.

The Manual says (page 10):

"Up to two models with Special Forces Characteristic may be hired per Master"

It also says:

"A Crew cannot contain models from more than one Special Forces group."

This is absolutely clear. It works exactly like your Soulstone pool. The first sentence forbids you to hire more than two. The second forbids from having more than one Special Force in your crew.

Just like you can gain more Soulstones than the initial limit, during the game, so can you summon more Special Forces models. That limit is only for hiring.

What people, as far as I know, have doubt about, is the ban on having more than one Special Force group in the crew. Some people believe, they still can summon a model from another Special Forces Group during the game. IMHO the rule is explicit and you cannot do it, but I suppose that part could use a ruling.

I highly doubt there's any problem with hiring limit - it's clear that's nothing more than a hiring rule.

Page 72 is worded a bit differently, but that's because that part is about the "hiring" stage of setting up the encounter. It, IMO, has nothing to do with things that happen later - the rules from page 10 are the basic rules and those should be followed during the game, once you finish hiring stage.

[Ratty]

well judging by the answers I got on my summoning questions I would say it forms an infinitely high (above and below) cylinder 3" out from the crooligan.

The ability doesn't mention "On this elevation"

Well the Ability says Ht5, so it's not infinitely high.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Ratty

[Math Mathonwy]

At the forefront of their defense is a spell called The Mist. It generates a 3” aura which counts as Obscuring. Basically they live by the moto you can’t shoot something you cant see.

Note that 3" isn't enough to block LOS to the Crooligan himself at it's exactly 3" and "Models can draw LoS up to 3" across [...] obscuring terrain" (RM, page 15).

(crooligans will almost always have the spirit characteristic when they die)

"Almost always" seems like an exaggeration.

Well the Ability says Ht3, so it's not infinitely high.

I believe the original intent behind the question actually was whether floors block it or not.

[Ratty]

It's an Aura, so I would assume that the normal rules for auras would apply. So unless all parts of the 3" aura were covered by the layer above, the aura would seep through and affect the layer above.

This is a long thread about how Auras are affected by other terrain.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=281478&postcount=23

But it basically boils down to if there is no way to trace a route between the Crooligan and the level above within the 3" area of the aura then the aura would not seep onto the next level. If there is any gap it would be able to enter that level and would spread out to fill the whole circle of the aura.

Edited November 10, 2011 by Ratty

[Ratty]

And everything is better with a diagram.

[Math Mathonwy]

That is one sweet diagram! And it explains the thing perfectly - thank you!

[fritz the cat]

that is a super sweet diagram, thanks ratty :3 and that opens up some fun ninja shenanigans for crooligans, and at the end of the day, more options make them a more likely choice for me

[Fetid Strumpet]

This is absolutely clear. It works exactly like your Soulstone pool.

Actually Q, it is not totally clear as there was a long thread that cannonfodder started which asked the RM about this very issue, and Weirdsketch said it was being discussed by the RM. If it was a totally clear issue the RM would have issued a ruling right there and then and not taken any time to discuss it.

As it stands there has still been no finalized ruling on this issue, so I'd say that it is actually still a grey area.

[Adran]

Cannonfodders thread covered several other special forces questions as well. Until we hear something back, I think its pretty safe to go with the rules as written in the manual. Which are you can only hire 2 special force minions and your crew can only contain from 1 type of special forces.

(notice the difference between Hire and contain)

Rumours have suggested that the next book is a special forces book, so they might revise rules to fit into what is going on with that, which is my personal guess as to why we've not heard more.

Personally I think Crooligans will get better in larger numbers. the ability to move to any mist on the board has some great possibilities when you have 3 or 4 different mist sections to get to. its just that hiring that many can be problomatic in other ways

[Fetid Strumpet]

True, but the Crooligans movement shenanigans require a casting of The Mist, and that means for every mist you want you are going to need an 8+ so I don't know how many auras you will have up each turn.

[Adran]

To be fair an 8+ is more likely than the 6:masks the punks need for their leap, but you are right you can't garentee it.

Although Molly can "borrow" the spell and cast it herself, or with the necrotic machine if you are looking for more mist fun.

[Mawdrigen]

AHA! Missed the ht3 bit, would that also hold for summoning?

[Lucidicide]

AHA! Missed the ht3 bit, would that also hold for summoning?

Would what hold for summoning?

[fritz the cat]

AHA! Missed the ht3 bit, would that also hold for summoning?

summoning in regards to...their teleport? in the sense of being able to teleport above them?

[Q'iq'el]

Would what hold for summoning?

Curiosity Calls is b2b, so I don't think that'd come in play.