Zoraida and 2 Special Forces

[Fading Memory]

This debate has come up a few times in other threads, but I don't believe it has been its own topic.

Under the rules for hiring models, it says, "The following restrictions apply when hiring Crews." (p71) and then later on says only one special forces may be selected and only two models of that special force may be hired unless a henchman of that special force is hired.

It says nothing about being able to summon Special Forces. Zoraida is able to summon Wicked Dolls. So the question is if Zoraida hires let's say Rami (Sp Kin), can she summon Wicked Dolls once the game starts?

The rule of one special force is unclear when talking about summoning as the rules seem to fall under hiring only; where as, something like Rare clearly stats how many of that model you can have in play at any given time.

[Ciaran]

Zoraida and Ramos are the only two models which have the rule

" In addition to the special forces rules.." (still waiting for book 3, so can't comment on the widow weaver)

So its perfectly clear that every one else has no chance to exceed it.

Weaver Widow can summon Teddies and Wicked Dolls. It's the Wicked Dolls that might "break" a rule possibly.

[sephiroa]

Weaver Widow can summon Teddies and Wicked Dolls. It's the Wicked Dolls that might "break" a rule possibly.

weaver widow can summon teddies,

weaver widow can be hired by collidi,

teddies aren't allowed in a collidi crew because it's not a doll or has affinity(collidi) what about that?

it's the same thing,,

i think it can be allowed because they are summoned, created, it would be weird that you want to create/summon something but you cannot, simply because there is a rule that says that collidi (or zoraida) can only hire dolls (or 1 special forces)

but that would be my opinion

[Adran]

While we're waiting for the ruling this is all idle speculation, but Collidi has a restriction on models he can hire in a crew. (I don't have collodi but the henchmen I do have all state it as a hiring restriction)

Special forces is a restriction on models in a crew, not just hiring.

So they are completly different rules involved.

Zoraida hiring Vonschill and them summoning a wicked doll requires the rules marshalls to explain the text is meant to mean it that way.

Collodi hiring a widow weaver which then summons teddy requires no changes to the rules.

Pandora hiring Vonschill and the Widow weaver which then summons a wicked doll requires the special forces rule to be re-written as there is no possible interpretation of its current wording that would allow that.

[sephiroa]

aah, i've gotta correct myself, collidi indeed can get the teddy from widow weaver,

but that still keeps the summoning problem lets wait for the marshals

[Dolomyte]

Weaver Widow can summon Teddies and Wicked Dolls. It's the Wicked Dolls that might "break" a rule possibly.

Cant a mcmourning player hire for instance von schill, and then summon rogue necromancy? he could also violate it. as can I think nicodem.

[CannonFodder]

Cant a mcmourning player hire for instance von schill, and then summon rogue necromancy? he could also violate it. as can I think nicodem.

still waiting, all this is lumped together waiting for a single ruling.

If forgot about Colodis restriction and summoning a teddy. Though I think that is safe to say is legal. Since Widow Weaver specifically sais summon teddy, and specifically sais can join Colodi crew.

[Ciaran]

Of course, you are correct.

[Fading Memory]

weaver widow can summon teddies,

weaver widow can be hired by collidi,

teddies aren't allowed in a collidi crew because it's not a doll or has affinity(collidi) what about that?

it's the same thing,,

i think it can be allowed because they are summoned, created, it would be weird that you want to create/summon something but you cannot, simply because there is a rule that says that collidi (or zoraida) can only hire dolls (or 1 special forces)

but that would be my opinion

Summoning (non special forces) models into a crew where the Master has hiring restrictions is completely legal. The rules only apply to hiring models before the game, not what happens in game.

This is why the 2 special forces rule is in debate, and this is why I originally created the post because its not completely clear if you can summon in a new special force model mid game. The idea is plausible at the moment considering rule marshalls have to discuss it.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I have to say once again I hope they enforce, or at least clarify their intent to only be able to have 1 group of special forces in your crew.

Obviously the interaction of being able to take a special forces crew and then summon in a member of a different special forces must have been overlooked or we would most likely had an answer relatively quickly. Personally I'm glad Wyrd is looking this over.

[psychocamel]

I have to say once again I hope they enforce, or at least clarify their intent to only be able to have 1 group of special forces in your crew.

I think that's good as a general rule, but I also think that things designed to get around hiring rules should also be able to get around this rule.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I agree, in which case the individual model itself should have the exception written onto its card. I think in the case of Zoraida it was a case of Wyrd going ..."whoops". I think this is the case because if it had been the original intent they wouldn't have to be examining the situation. They would have been aware of it from day 1 and had a comment.

I personally think it should be a hard restriction, but I do have to credit Wyrd for examining the issue to see if it is truly an disruptive rule, and I think more importantly how it will effect design decisions in the future. For example currently they don't have to look at how any special forces member interacts with any other special forces member of a different faction. If they open this one up they will have to examine that interaction on all their designs going forward. Just as one example.

[CannonFodder]

I personally think it should be a hard restriction, but I do have to credit Wyrd for examining the issue to see if it is truly an disruptive rule, and I think more importantly how it will effect design decisions in the future. For example currently they don't have to look at how any special forces member interacts with any other special forces member of a different faction. If they open this one up they will have to examine that interaction on all their designs going forward. Just as one example.

I agree that they should look closer and make sure it does not break their intent moving forward, but its been 6 weeks since we first posted the question in a different thread. and over a week since we got a response saying its being looked at, and they'll be getting back to us in a couple days.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Still in discussion.

September 12th.

I agree that they should look closer and make sure it does not break their intent moving forward, but its been 6 weeks since we first posted the question in a different thread. and over a week since we got a response saying its being looked at, and they'll be getting back to us in a couple days.

September 15th.

It's been 3 days since you got your last response.

[psychocamel]

Hehe some people are overly anxious to get the answer.

[CannonFodder]

Since the hiring rules aren't part of Summoning I'm not quite sure why folks are latching onto those pages over what's stated on page 10.

Nevertheless, I'm going to talk with the other Marshals on this and give you something more official sounding in the next day or so.

Sept 1.. over a week.

[psychocamel]

Sept 1.. over a week.

These are very important rulings that can have a big effect on the game, they need to be discussed in length, thought carefully about and probably playtested as well.

We know they are working on it, just be patient.

[CannonFodder]

:peep:

[CannonFodder]

:noevil:

[XboxVrtigo]

The longer the delay in response the more intrigued I get.

What other possibilities are being considered? Impact on other masters/special forces/dolls/? ?

I play Ramos and Zoraida so the thought/dream/hope of a future special forces doll construct that could be used by both masters gets me excited!

[Tograth]

To be honest, I would think the best solution is restrict Special forces to one per for hiring purposes, but beyond that remove the restrictions.

One thing you could do in fact, to balance the effigies is to give each effigy Special forces [faction]. So for Brutal he would gain SF: Elite forces, Magical would gain SF: M&SU Assets, Hodgepodge wouldnt need one (since it ignores restrictions on hiring etc anyway), and the Carrion would gain SF: Horrors. Mysterious wouldnt gain anything, as its already got the neverborn special forces, and gives enough bonuses to neverborn masters anyway (with aetheric connection etc not affecting them).

[CannonFodder]

:marshmell

[Dolomyte]

Since the hiring rules aren't part of Summoning I'm not quite sure why folks are latching onto those pages over what's stated on page 10.

Nevertheless, I'm going to talk with the other Marshals on this and give you something more official sounding in the next day or so.

Dr. Kel Theos stepped into the quantum leap acccelerator and VANISHED. He woke to find himseld trapped in the past facing forumites who were not his friends and driven by an unknown force to change history for the better. His only guide on this journay is sketch, an observer from his own time who appears in the form of a hologram that only Keltheos can see and hear. Hoping each time that his next leap will be the one where people just forget and stop bumping all of these unanswered threads!

[Dracomax]

Dr. Kel Theos stepped into the quantum leap acccelerator and VANISHED. He woke to find himseld trapped in the past facing forumites who were not his friends and driven by an unknown force to change history for the better. His only guide on this journay is sketch, an observer from his own time who appears in the form of a hologram that only Keltheos can see and hear. Hoping each time that his next leap will be the one where people just forget and stop bumping all of these unanswered threads!

You sir deserve a cookie. As this is malifaux, however, We are setting the guild hounds upon you.

[Dolomyte]

You sir deserve a cookie. As this is malifaux, however, We are setting the guild hounds upon you.

I just have a wierd scott bakula affinity. I think its because necessary roughness was the first movie when I was like holy god that woman is smoking hot (a young kathy ireland)

[CannonFodder]

:stitched

Does not Die