Zoraida and 2 Special Forces

[Fading Memory]

This debate has come up a few times in other threads, but I don't believe it has been its own topic.

Under the rules for hiring models, it says, "The following restrictions apply when hiring Crews." (p71) and then later on says only one special forces may be selected and only two models of that special force may be hired unless a henchman of that special force is hired.

It says nothing about being able to summon Special Forces. Zoraida is able to summon Wicked Dolls. So the question is if Zoraida hires let's say Rami (Sp Kin), can she summon Wicked Dolls once the game starts?

The rule of one special force is unclear when talking about summoning as the rules seem to fall under hiring only; where as, something like Rare clearly stats how many of that model you can have in play at any given time.

[Buhallin]

The Special Forces description on page 10 says nothing about hiring. It simply says a crew cannot contain members of more than one special force.

[Fading Memory]

The Special Forces description on page 10...

Who reads the beginning of the book?:crap:

[Ferb]

The Special Forces description on page 10 says nothing about hiring. It simply says a crew cannot contain members of more than one special force.

Actually it mentions hiring three times:

Up to two models with the Special Forces characteristic may be hired by a Master. A Crew cannot contain models from more than one Special Forces group. Some models lift the two model hiring limit when included in a crew, but the limit of one Special Forces group remains (see Hiring Crews, p.72).

Granted the sentance you quote doesn't mention hiring but it is qualified in the last sentance where its says the limit is specified in the Hire Crews section. So I would agree that you can't start with more than one special forces group but I still think you can summon models from another special forces group as they are not part of your starting crew.

This has come up in other threads and we're still waiting on a rules marshall ruling one way or the other. I can see your point but don't agree with you :-)

Ferb

[Calmdown]

This has come up in other threads and we're still waiting on a rules marshall ruling one way or the other. I can see your point but don't agree with you :-)

Ferb

Im not sure why you need a rules martial for this. Just because it mentions hiring in some sentences does not mean that you would ignore the fact that it doesn't say hiring in another.

"A Crew cannot contain models from more than one Special Forces group"

That is a hard and fast rule, as written.

Of course they could decide that was not the intent, but according to the book it's not legal.

[Ferb]

That's taking the sentance out of it's context. The context is all about hiring crews. The limit clearly comes from:

the limit of one Special Forces group remains (see Hiring Crews, p.72).

So taking the rules as they are written it only applies to hiring.

However I don't expect to change anyones mind on this :-) people strongly believe otherwise and that's ok.

But our group will play it this way until we see a ruling otherwise. I'm sure other groups will play it differently which is their right :-)

Cheers,

Ferb

[magicpockets]

Just to throw this in there - Z can hire multiple special forces (MS&U Assets, LaCroix and Freikorps) in one list (35ss = Raphael, Rami, Trapper, Silent One, Gunsmith) if WP<5

[Calmdown]

That's taking the sentance out of it's context. The context is all about hiring crews. The limit clearly comes from:

So taking the rules as they are written it only applies to hiring.

However I don't expect to change anyones mind on this :-) people strongly believe otherwise and that's ok.

But our group will play it this way until we see a ruling otherwise. I'm sure other groups will play it differently which is their right :-)

Cheers,

Ferb

I dont think you're quite understanding this (unless you're choosing to houserule this because you want to...).

In rules terms, when a sentence is written with a full stop at the end, there *is* no context. The rules is specific and is not related to the sentences before and after it. If a rule says "A crew cannot contain models from more than one Special Forces group", then that's that. It's a rule alone.

The fact that Zoraida's rule references back to this sentence is not intended to change the sentence, it is just intended as a clarification that despite the fact that she can ignore the 2 doll limit, it doesnt mean she can get something else as well as dolls. The fact that the bracket involves the word 'Hiring' is just referencing you to a rules section, not a license for someone reading the rules to suddenly make wild interpretations

But how you play the game is up to you, as long as you realise that you're purposefully ignoring a game rule. I might try this next time I play and try ignoring the Wk values on my models because I dont like them...

[Geckilian]

That restiction however is in the hiring crews section, which stipulates, at the beginning, 'The following restrictions apply when hiring Crews:' The special forces section is one of the subheadings under this, and as such subject to it. Anything mentioned in that paragraph applies 'when hiring crews'. Not during the game, not after the game, just 'when hiring crews'.

That's why it can be seen as an issue.

[Calmdown]

That restiction however is in the hiring crews section, which stipulates, at the beginning, 'The following restrictions apply when hiring Crews:' The special forces section is one of the subheadings under this, and as such subject to it. Anything mentioned in that paragraph applies 'when hiring crews'. Not during the game, not after the game, just 'when hiring crews'.

That's why it can be seen as an issue.

Nope, its in the characteristics section, on page 10.

[Geckilian]

Hmm. Seems so then, since the reference to hiring crews is only at the end in another sentence. I stand corrected, and feel slightly sorry for Zoraida.

[CannonFodder]

Hmm. Seems so then, since the reference to hiring crews is only at the end in another sentence. I stand corrected, and feel slightly sorry for Zoraida.

Actually the hiring reference is on the top of 69 or 70 which refers to all info below it. Now Page 10 is the same wording (copy & paste) but does fall under the hiring comment.

This is why we need an official ruling.

I'm upset on the lack of response we are getting, I've raised this issue without trying to provoke a response. I though it was me because I admittedly trolled a bit before hand. But seeing its not just me and in the last couple week virtually no official response. I was hoping with responses like this we'd see an improvements on ruling, but at this point with rules wrangler posting on other threads but rules threads I think this is intentional.

[magicpockets]

Could just mean it's being discussed and/or playtested. Some rules are easy to clarify, some go to the very core mechanic of the game (like this one) and no doubt take time to decide on.

[CannonFodder]

3 weeks for a ruling on this topic?

The lack of response started before then.

[karn987]

3 weeks for a ruling on this topic?

The lack of response started before then.

Gencon man. It's well known that when Gencon hits, a few weeks before and after it the company gets very busy. They'll be back in full form soon enough I'd bet.

Just don't sweat it, this is just the bad time of year for questions and rulings. But like last year, they will come back and handle them all. The guys are only human, they are doing what they can I'm sure. Plus you never know what else may be going on.

[nilus]

The guys are only human

So they claim

But what Karn said. They got something like 3000 Gencon web sales, not to mention the con itself(and some of the staff attended another con last weekend). They are busy, once things slow down I am sure your questions will be answered.

[CannonFodder]

I under stand a lull a week before Gencon and after, but things should be heading back to normal soon. If I didn't see wranglers posting on other thread for fun I would be fine. But seeing them on the forums sometimes leaves me frustratrated.

I do IT support management for a living, and if my clients asked for help and didn't get a response I'd be shot. If over loaded we at least give an ETA so they know when to expect a response. Here we're forced to sit and wait, and no way to say for sure when we'll get a response. I made a post hoping for some sort of feed back but got none.

FYI: Frustrated is fairly low on my anger scale. for me it goes Normal ==> Frustrated ==> Upset ==> Angry ==> Venomous ==> Violent. I doubt any game would get me past upset. Sometime its hard to judge people threw only words.

One of those things that I had to listen to in a team building exercises is "tell people what they can expect from you and deliver it.". This is actually something that stuck with me and works. Here we are expecting to be able to post questions and have a response in a reasonable time frame. Now that's not happening, if someone spent 2 seconds and posted a note saying that due to Gencon order shipping we are not responding to questions until _________. I think a lot of people would be happy about it.

[Adran]

The rules for special forces are in two places, page 10 and page 72. Certainly you can claim that the page 72 restrictions are only for hiring, but that does not happen on page 10.

Up to two models with the special forces characteristics may be hired per master. A crew can not contain models from more than 1 special forces group. Some models lift the two models hiring limit but the limit of 1 special forces group remains (see page 72 Hiring).

How can you read this paragraph to say anything other than a Crew can contain only 1 type of Special forces.

It refers to two different things, both hiring and containing. So a crew can normally only hire 2 special forces models. If they have a way of summoning a third they can. So over the course of a game a neverborne crew can hire two wicked dolls (per master), and may summon further wicked dolls. But it still can only contain 1 type of special forces.

None of the posts in this thread or any of the other times you have asked have justified a claim that the wording on page 10 would allow you to mix different types later in the game.

Personally I would rather the rules marshalls spent their time on other questions. Ones which weren't clear in the rules.

[magicpockets]

I think the question is whether Z's wording about hiring any number of Doll special forces overrules the rules you have posted (as card rules override book rules). For example she can hire LaCroix as they're WP<4 which would give her more than 1 special forces due to her own special rules - so the question is whether this is the same.

[CannonFodder]

I think the question is whether Z's wording about hiring any number of Doll special forces overrules the rules you have posted (as card rules override book rules). For example she can hire LaCroix as they're WP<4 which would give her more than 1 special forces due to her own special rules - so the question is whether this is the same.

I think everyone agrees that you can't hire 2 different spec forces, but can she hire KIN then summon a Doll.

[Fulgrima]

I think everyone agrees that you can't hire 2 different spec forces, but can she hire KIN then summon a Doll.

What is the current precedent for summoning a rare model over its initial limit? As that is something not allowed in the hiring process but if you are allowed to summon additional during the game it would be the same for Z and her doll I guess.

[magicpockets]

Rare is a fixed limit for hiring and in game. But Z has a rule referencing dolls which could overrule the main rule (if you know what I mean)

[Calmdown]

What is the current precedent for summoning a rare model over its initial limit? As that is something not allowed in the hiring process but if you are allowed to summon additional during the game it would be the same for Z and her doll I guess.

Its explicitly forbidden by the rulebook. Same for unique models.

And just to Devil's Advocate a second, it is very explicitly forbidden (it actually says hire and/or have in play, something to that effect - too busy to look up right now) so you could argue the same doesnt go for Z's special forces.

[CannonFodder]

What is the current precedent for summoning a rare model over its initial limit? As that is something not allowed in the hiring process but if you are allowed to summon additional during the game it would be the same for Z and her doll I guess.

1)The Rare# is enforces in game and at hiring and in game.

2) 2 spec forces models being hired is enforces at hiring for sure(without leader or Ramos or Zoraida), summoning past 2 in game is still up for discussion.

3) Mixing 2 types of spec forces at hiring is not allowed at hiring, with possible exception to Ramos and Zoraida.

4) Zoraida and Ramos have rulebook abilities that let them hire as many spec forces (MSU \Dolls) as they want, does this supersede the 2 types of spec forces at hiring (90% sure no), does this let them summon (if capable) a different spec force mid game causing the spec forces to mix. This is the main item up for discussion because zoraida can summon Wicked dolls which are spec forces (Dolls) and she can hire Spec forces (MSU/Kin) already because of WP4 or less.

[Adran]

Except that the Zoraida special rule is that she may hire any number of dolls. Since the special forces rule already tells us that some models are allowed to hire more than 2 this is fine, but it then explicitly tells us that even in these cases the crew can not contain more than 1 type.

[CannonFodder]

Except that the Zoraida special rule is that she may hire any number of dolls. Since the special forces rule already tells us that some models are allowed to hire more than 2 this is fine, but it then explicitly tells us that even in these cases the crew can not contain more than 1 type.

The wording in the book sais "In addition..."

I had that stance before also, and someone brought that up to me. There is just enough ambiguity in the rule book to cause a circular argument. At quick look is sais no, but if you look deeper you see loopholes. Check out this thread where I think you'll see more info.

Which is why we're posting in the rules section for clarity.