Pere Ravage - a bit too good?

[Ratty]

I thought Zoraida could hire Wp 4 models from any faction at no additional cost?

It doesn't say at no additional cost... Taking lots of gremlins quickly becomes expensive.

[Hookers]

yeah he is amazing. it's really reckless that makes him that much better than papa loco.

papa loco you can see coming, pere comes out of nowhere (even if you've seen the trick before). 18" is gigantic. you can never anticipate or play around it because it is half of the table. thats not even counting the pulse itself.

[hippieshopper]

Aye, Belles and Crooked Men are pretty good against him. The problem with them is that Pere's effective range is 8" from Ooh, a Girl, then 10" from two walks and then 6" from the pulse. OK, the pulse range isn't quite the same as the other 18" since it's important to go off in a position covering a maximum amount of enemies, so we should probably add only three or four inches from it. All told, his threat range is something like 21-22+"

This in turn means that hiding him behind terrain is usually pretty doable which is certainly something that I would do against Belles. And companion means that the other Lacroix can pave the way for his slingshot.

All that said, I do agree that he is dealable. I just feel that currently he dominates the game too much while he's on the table and some toning down would make for a better experience while still retaining his fun flavour and worth.

The problem with that is my models are expendable, the gremlins...it is not always the same way.

Seamus can companion all his whores at once. Pere is fast but he doesn't have any defense for an 18" lure into severe terrain.

That makes your 20" inch range into 10" and I can lure you more than once...more than twice if companioned.

You can do a lot of damage, but my belles come back. and they have 8 Wds each and are hard to wound.

Pigapults aren't a problem, lock them up with rocket belles and you can only bash me.

I am good at theorycrafting too you guys =P

[Murphy'sLawyer]

I find Pere's biggest ability is his psychological effect while he is on the board. But I will say, killing Pere before he goes Boom! is a lot harder than you think in the right hands. But my opponents have found ways to cuddle him as I know I can take out only one model at a time if the position right.

Though I will admit that the last time I blow him up I took out 16 points of my opponent's crew and wound most of the rest. It even apologized before doing it becuase I felt kind of bad. I mean who charges Seamus' crew clumped up down the center?

[Odin1981]

The biggest reason why pere has reckless is more than likely due to not having any model to obey him to make up for the distance that papa has.

Granted I would probably prefer pere over papa but honestly unless you are playing newbs, pere should never hit more than tops two figures ever. And he is just as likely to be made a mockery of anyone who owns any model that can take a model with any type of obey/lure effect.

I've had papa for like a year now and I have only once ever used him (90 point brawl) and in all honesty papa or pere (pretty much one and the same) are really not that game changing to warrent a adjustment to either of them.

[Math Mathonwy]

Can someone explain how they get Papa Loco to move 18" during a single (companioned) activation and then blow up? Because I'm obviously missing something as people keep saying that they are the same or that Loco is better than Pere.

That threat range means that on most boards I can hide to Ht1 Pere behind something which makes most counter measures a lot harder to do. Lure need LOS. Obey needs LOS. I've yet to play on a board that didn't have ht1 LOS blocking terrain somewhere convenient.

It really has nothing to do with noobness - the game revolves around schemes and strategies and these usually force you to move. OK, apparently everyone else is significantly better in getting to the objectives in a super loose formation where every model is over 14" from another (no matter that there are lots and lots of synergistic abilities that are sorta short ranged) but how do you avoid getting isolated and shot up by the rest of the gremlins in a formation like that?

[Hatchethead]

How can he hide behind Ht 1 blocking terrain? If the model Luring/Obeying is Ht 2 or taller, they have LoS to Pere (according to page 15). He would have to find Ht 2 terrain to squat behind, or even taller depending on the model trying to draw LoS.

I'm not trying to be a dick. Moreso, your statement makes me wonder if I've somehow misinterpreted the LoS rules.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Hatchethead

[Math Mathonwy]

How can he hide behind Ht 1 blocking terrain? If the model Luring/Obeying is Ht 2 or taller, they have LoS to Pere (according to page 15). He would have to find Ht 2 terrain to squat behind, or even taller depending on the model trying to draw LoS.

Yeah, true that. Had a brain cramp - of course the Obey-user is at least Ht2. Still, at least our tables have Ht2 (and higher) terrain to hide behind all of the time. I mean, a table with LOS all the way through everywhere is a pretty rare sight (and luckily so).

What I'm trying to say is that since Pere has such a huge threat range, hiding him is a lot easier than hiding Loco and in my book that makes him better.

I'm not trying to be a dick. Moreso, your statement makes me wonder if I've somehow misinterpreted the LoS rules.

You haven't - thank you for pointing my mistake out .

Edited July 12, 2011 by Math Mathonwy

[Odin1981]

Can someone explain how they get Papa Loco to move 18" during a single (companioned) activation and then blow up? Because I'm obviously missing something as people keep saying that they are the same or that Loco is better than Pere.

That threat range means that on most boards I can hide to Ht1 Pere behind something which makes most counter measures a lot harder to do. Lure need LOS. Obey needs LOS. I've yet to play on a board that didn't have ht1 LOS blocking terrain somewhere convenient.

It really has nothing to do with noobness - the game revolves around schemes and strategies and these usually force you to move. OK, apparently everyone else is significantly better in getting to the objectives in a super loose formation where every model is over 14" from another (no matter that there are lots and lots of synergistic abilities that are sorta short ranged) but how do you avoid getting isolated and shot up by the rest of the gremlins in a formation like that?

Assuming that three models (perdita, abuela, and nephilim have los and our in range while the "string" being within 6" companions chosing to have neph go first, then dita , then grammy then papa then nino) including a 10 or higher card and a 7 and a 8 of masks in hand with a 13 for papa's spell:

Neph activates obeys papa charges 7-8" (unsure of charge range one of the two don't really use him ever) dita activates obeys him 7-8" again, gramma obeys 7-8" papa goes moves 5" then takes ya with me boom works out to be in a perfect situation assuming a 7" charge on papa a 26" threat range if 8" a 29" range plus the aura/pulse is I believe 4" so his overall threat range assuming a perfect scenario is between 30 and 33" depending on what papa's charge stat is (I believe it is 7" but it might be 8" I'm unsure I have only used him once).

However the "perfect scenario" requires a 10 to be flipped/cheated then a 8 mask or better for grammy and a 7 mask or better for dita then a 13 to be played on papa's spell so it is fairly card intensive and will require you to be positioned to set up pretty much a full alpha (activating everything you take) to set up including say nino to kill papa after papa has activated. and then the opposing crew will then essentially full alpha you right back.

In reality though you would probably only need two obeys (say its 14") plus 5" walk then take ya with me for a 19" "walk" range plus a 4 or 5" pulse so a 23 or 24" threat range not to mention that a two obey alpha delievering papa is generally a little easier to pull off and much less card intensive.

Edited July 12, 2011 by Odin1981

[Silveri]

Freikorps trapper is the easiest way to deal with him. Even if you don't kill him you stop any chance of him going off twice, and cause your opponent to rethink his troop placement out of fear of collateral damage.

Freikorps trapper costs 6 ss, when taken in a Marcus crew, he costs 7 ss. Again, 5 vs 7 ss tradeoff benefiting the gremlins, but with the trapper, he probably has a bit more use than just taking Pere out, so that's the best idea I've received so far. He also MIGHT be good fluffwise too.

But this one is the only good suggestion (IMHO) for Marcus crews thus far, anything else?

[Math Mathonwy]

Freikorps trapper costs 6 ss, when taken in a Marcus crew, he costs 7 ss. Again, 5 vs 7 ss tradeoff benefiting the gremlins, but with the trapper, he probably has a bit more use than just taking Pere out, so that's the best idea I've received so far. He also MIGHT be good fluffwise too.

But this one is the only good suggestion (IMHO) for Marcus crews thus far, anything else?

I was sorta convinced by Sholto's defense of the Shikome. It takes quite a bit of forethought, but a well positioned Shikome with Pere as her prey seems like it could work.

[Silveri]

I was sorta convinced by Sholto's defense of the Shikome. It takes quite a bit of forethought, but a well positioned Shikome with Pere as her prey seems like it could work.

Again, I didn't say that one couldn't get rid of Pere with a Shikome. I had previously stated that I could have probably gotten rid of Pere with a well placed Sabretooth (for instance, I could have leapt to the terrace, kept the kitty in hiding and when Pere was close enough, another leap and then charge - or if distance is enough with just the leap, move, devour (devour was a (1) action IIRC) and 2 strikes).

The trouble is that BOTH options cost 8 ss, and after taken Pere down would probably get killed before achieving anything else, which would mean that they would most likely not achieve their points' worth.

The Trapper would have much higher chances of containing Pere without getting himself killed and thus would probably be at least worth the 7 ss he would cost.

Of course, then there's nitpicking on whether Ophelia's crew initially has a strategícal advance over Marcus' crew when a 5 ss model in Ophelia's crew would dictate more than 5 ss worth of models in Marcus' crew? Ie would a known Shikome/Sabretooth in a Marcus crew change the composition of your Ophelia's crew? If not and with the assumption that Pere does dictate the opponent's crew composition up to a point (at least when playing with Marcus) AND the known response (be it Shikome/Sabretooth/Trapper) doesn't cause changes in your Ophelia's crew construction, I would state that Ophelia's crew has a marked strategical advantage over Marcus. Probably not other crews, but again, these are issues of balance and very difficult ones at that.

[Rathnard]

Pere is great, but he's never bothered me and I certainly don't think he's undercosted.

There are plenty of ways to take him out without him doing too much damage. There's Alpha from Marcus and I mentioned obey - with a voodoo doll Zoraida could even do it from across the board. Snipers and other long-ranged minions could also kill him from range - even a Ht1 model can't stay hidden forever and just having the sniper in a good position will limit Pere's mobility.

Any models with some resistance to Pere's attacks can deal with him up close as well. The other day I took Pere out with two Guild hounds (Evasive 2 IIRC). Other models with evasive, armour or the spirit trait could also take care of him, not to mention the freikorps and potentially even cheap and/or expendible models like terror tots and canine remains. Killjoy and the executioner will just recover any wounds pere deals from his death, Finally, the fact that he'll normally be isolated (unless your opponent likes getting his own crew roasted) makes him much easier to deal with without getting attacked back by the rest of the gremlin crew.

[Math Mathonwy]

Again, I didn't say that one couldn't get rid of Pere with a Shikome. I had previously stated that I could have probably gotten rid of Pere with a well placed Sabretooth (for instance, I could have leapt to the terrace, kept the kitty in hiding and when Pere was close enough, another leap and then charge - or if distance is enough with just the leap, move, devour (devour was a (1) action IIRC) and 2 strikes).

The trouble is that BOTH options cost 8 ss, and after taken Pere down would probably get killed before achieving anything else, which would mean that they would most likely not achieve their points' worth.

I'm pretty convinced that losing an 8SS minion into dealing with Pere is something of a bargain, unfortunately. Plus, if you can do it in the middle of the Gremlins and get him to blow up, then it's game-set-match pretty much right there.

The Trapper would have much higher chances of containing Pere without getting himself killed and thus would probably be at least worth the 7 ss he would cost.

True that.

Of course, then there's nitpicking on whether Ophelia's crew initially has a strategícal advance over Marcus' crew when a 5 ss model in Ophelia's crew would dictate more than 5 ss worth of models in Marcus' crew? Ie would a known Shikome/Sabretooth in a Marcus crew change the composition of your Ophelia's crew? If not and with the assumption that Pere does dictate the opponent's crew composition up to a point (at least when playing with Marcus) AND the known response (be it Shikome/Sabretooth/Trapper) doesn't cause changes in your Ophelia's crew construction, I would state that Ophelia's crew has a marked strategical advantage over Marcus. Probably not other crews, but again, these are issues of balance and very difficult ones at that.

I am of the opinion that Pere's effect on the game is overtly great, no argument there.

A bit to the side from your point, note that Ophelia's crew is really, really difficult to customize to any meaningful extent. You can switch around Young LaCroix and basic Gremlins and decide whether you want to take one or two slop haulers, but that's pretty much it. You might include a Taxidermist if you're feeling particularly adventureous but that doesn't seem like an optimal choice against pretty much anything. So they need to be able to handle all-comers (though there are some very nasty match-ups - Dreamer and Hamelin seem almost impossible to deal with).

There are plenty of ways to take him out without him doing too much damage. There's Alpha from Marcus

Could you run this step by step as I see no way for Marcus to Alpha Pere effectively unless the Pere player is dumb as bricks.

As an aside, that pink on white is hell to read - holy crap!

[CannonFodder]

The December Acolyte has bearskin armour. He is immune to the . he can also help deal with him. Not as good as the trapper, but cost one point less and does not eat a merc slot. (I really like Desperate Merc for 2 pts). Also does not force Freikorps as merc restriction.

[Silveri]

Evasive doesn't help with pulses, or have I understood something wrong?

[magicpockets]

Evasive doesn't help with pulses, or have I understood something wrong?

Yeah, I thought it was only blast damage?

[Necromorph]

Whoa whoa whoa...I only read the first page...but are we really gonna sit here and say something for Gremlins is too powerful....ROFL.

He's a 1 trick pony, and I don't think there's anything wrong with him. I don't think they should make Oopsie a (2), that would make him slow and gimpy (considering his cb isn't all that high with his weapons). If anything they could knock the range of Oopsie's pulse down by 1" or something.

As has been said, he's only that destructive if the enemy lets him be. Spread out, use low ss models to block the way to your main force, obey, austringers (as much as I hate the f***ers), etc,etc. It's really a very simple trick, and people need to try and adapt their strategies first before we start looking at changing models' stats/abilities.

[CannonFodder]

Evasive doesn't help with pulses, or have I understood something wrong?

Elusive ==> reduce

Bearskin armour ==> ignore damage (not effects)

[CannonFodder]

Actually rereading the December Acolyte now and he is getting more and more interesting vs gremlins. The bearskin armour is good because it ignores . (Take note bayou gremlins ya'll watch this ability technically is not a ). he also has Devour which could eat any gremlin in 1 shot.

VS Pigapault and stuffed pigs it can just ignore half the damage.

[Guy in Suit]

Pere is the weakest of the Kin - IMO - mainly because he is very weak against all the Willpower/obey/lure type crews gremlins already struggle against. In a fixed-list environment I would never take him - too big of a gamble.

[Rathnard]

Evasive doesn't help with pulses, or have I understood something wrong?

Huh, well how about that... I guess you learn something new every day.

Being a (2) action, Alpha is not easy to get off, but so long as Pere is in 10" and LoS it's acheivabe. You just (0) Wild Heart for Serpent, (0) charge Pere, hit him to trigger Primal Reaction and (2) Alpha to take over Pere's activation for a turn.

It's not foolproof plan (nothing is in Malifaux), but it's a potential tool for Marcus and it's yet another 10" zone that Pere needs to keep out of.

[Hookers]

Oooh a girl 8", walk twice, 10", recklessly Oopsie, huge threat range

[Math Mathonwy]

Being a (2) action, Alpha is not easy to get off, but so long as Pere is in 10" and LoS it's acheivabe. You just (0) Wild Heart for Serpent, (0) charge Pere, hit him to trigger Primal Reaction and (2) Alpha to take over Pere's activation for a turn.

It's not foolproof plan (nothing is in Malifaux), but it's a potential tool for Marcus and it's yet another 10" zone that Pere needs to keep out of.

Why would Pere be withing 10" of Marcus?? His threat range is over twice that! *eyes... bleeding... from the pink on white... whyyyyyyyy*

[Cornelious1424]

Pere is the weakest of the Kin - IMO - mainly because he is very weak against all the Willpower/obey/lure type crews gremlins already struggle against. In a fixed-list environment I would never take him - too big of a gamble.

Meh, you can literally sit him behind your line and wait for the opportunity to use him. There isn't a single Strategy in the book where your opponent doesn't have to make an attempt to come towards you in some way. Just wait it out until the moment is right. Only 1 master in the game doesn't need LoS for Obey, but her totem does in order to use Conduit in the first place and if a reser player wants to Lure Pere, by all means =D. For 5 points he is totally worth it...and if he does blow up in your face, that's gremlins!!! The only crew I've ever had a problem with using him in, was against VonSchill, because he just makes Pere's best abilities useless.