Managed to beat nexus 2! With some caveats...

[Maniacal_cackle]

So Radek has been running fixed list Nexus 2 for a couple months I think. He smashed a large tournament in person I believe, and then was rampaging through the world series until I put a stop to him!  Here's what I needed to win:

• I spent a few weeks teching and planning for the matchup.
• I learned to play pandora 2 specifically for the matchup.
• I carefully teched my crew against him - incorporeal and stunned just wreck his crew.
• He didn't tech his crew around mine at all.
• I was attacker and abused that a bit.
• He misread schemes so missed an end point he thought he had set up.

And so I managed to pull the 4-3 win!

So conclusively demonstrated that Nexus 2 is beatable... however, I'm not sure I could have won with any of my usual crews or much else in neverborn.

Granted Radek is an exceptional player, but this one has been terrorizing a few metas.

My take is that Nexus 2 is overtuned on any pool where AP matters... and that's a lot of pools xD I think for many masters it is just an unwinnable game at times.

What are your reckons?

[trikk]

The sheer amount of free wounds, healing and parasite debuffs are just way out of line

[Kelto]

Could you post his list? 

In my meta i did not see nexus 2 as unbeatable.

[cktAvatar]

I think it might be the one listed here (

)?

[Maniacal_cackle]

Stanley

Eyes and ears

Archivist

Creeper

Triple botanists

Just so many actions to deal with and everything is so tanky.

And I didn't even have to worry about the defense trigger! Video will be up soon.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Results so far for the event:

• Radek loses with Nexus 2 to me (4-3)
• Nexus 1 beats Molly 1 (5-4)
  • They were worried about lethe's caress
• Radek wins with Nexus 2 vs Zoraida 1 (7-2)
• Nexus 2 beats zipp 2 (7-2)
• Nexus 2 beats misaki (7-6)
• Nexus 2 beats Euri 1 (5-2)
• Nexus 2 beats Tara 2 (7-6)
• Von Schtook beats Nexus2 (6-3)* 
  • Both players mid tables
• Nexus 2 beats dashel1 (8-2)
• Nexus 2 beats Mccabe 2 (8-4)
• Nexus 2 beats zoraida 1 (7-5)
• Radek nexus 2 beats Yan lo 2 (7-1)

So that's 12 nexus games in the event so far, and other than the two games listed above, there's 10 games. Some were close enough I assume it could go either way, and many were absolute blowouts.

Nexus is also the big threat on the block so people are pretty well prepared for it. Only one event, of course, but I think Longshanks and World Series data reflects similar results.

[Adran]

11 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

So Radek has been running fixed list Nexus 2 for a couple months I think. He smashed a large tournament in person I believe, and then was rampaging through the world series until I put a stop to him!  Here's what I needed to win:

• I spent a few weeks teching and planning for the matchup.
• I learned to play pandora 2 specifically for the matchup.
• I carefully teched my crew against him - incorporeal and stunned just wreck his crew.
• He didn't tech his crew around mine at all.
• I was attacker and abused that a bit.
• He misread schemes so missed an end point he thought he had set up.

And so I managed to pull the 4-3 win!

So conclusively demonstrated that Nexus 2 is beatable... however, I'm not sure I could have won with any of my usual crews or much else in neverborn.

Granted Radek is an exceptional player, but this one has been terrorizing a few metas.

My take is that Nexus 2 is overtuned on any pool where AP matters... and that's a lot of pools xD I think for many masters it is just an unwinnable game at times.

What are your reckons?

Just out of interest, once you have learnt how to tech against the list, do you think it is as overpowered? How easy are the tech options for several factions? And if you are expecting to play in a high Ap game, would you plan to create a list designed to hamper Nexus 2 at keyword selection?

If a crew is vulnerable to tech picks, then once people realise that, they will make those tech picks all the time. ( just like if you are a Hoffman player you expect your opponent to hire several anti armour options, and your crew is priced expecting that your opponent has hired tech against you). 

[Maniacal_cackle]

26 minutes ago, Adran said:

Just out of interest, once you have learnt how to tech against the list, do you think it is as overpowered? How easy are the tech options for several factions? And if you are expecting to play in a high Ap game, would you plan to create a list designed to hamper Nexus 2 at keyword selection?

If a crew is vulnerable to tech picks, then once people realise that, they will make those tech picks all the time. ( just like if you are a Hoffman player you expect your opponent to hire several anti armour options, and your crew is priced expecting that your opponent has hired tech against you). 

Yes and no.

If I know in advance that my opponent is a Nexus player and the exact list they're playing, I can beat them with Neverborn potentially. If my opponent had built an anti pandora list with Nexus 2 I think I would have been in trouble, but hard to say for sure.

Ressers are a bit easier as we have a horde hard counter (Kirai).

It is also a bit easier because ES really only has two game-warpingly strong masters (Nexus and maxine), so if you declare a master that can deal with those two, you can handle the rest (as opposed to ressers who feel like they have several game-warpingly strong masters).

Is a master balanced if you can only prepare for it by accurately predicting your opponent will pick it? Maybe.

Is a master balanced if you can only prepare for it if you know the exact list your opponent is running? Probably not so much.

I do think faction strength should be taken into account. If my opponent declares ES, I have a solid idea of the most dangerous things they might declare. If my opponent declares Ressers or Outcasts, it feels like there are many ways in which they can destroy me.

ES has more raw power potentially, but I also believe flexibility is a key consideration. How easy is it for opponents to be prepared?

I don't know what the target level of power level is, but for me I feel like cadmus is crossing the line from what I've observed. Only played 3-5 games against though,  so grains of salt.

You can also argue botanists are what break Nexus, but... I don't want to see another versatile nerfed for them.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Or to put it more succinctly...

A few masters in each faction can stand a good chance when both players are teching? Probably strong but balanced.

Only 1 or 2 masters per faction can stand a good chance when both players are teching, or the Nexus player isn't teching? Probably too strong.

A faction has multiple masters so strong you can only win if you declare the right master? Super broken.

Explorer's Society is definitely not in that third category anymore.

[Adran]

Then we are getting to " why didn't the Nexus player tech?" Is it because they were complacent and didn't bother? Or is it because they thought they were using the best list for the game ( possibly because it was the list they understood best, not necessarily because it was the best list in theory). 

If a list is a strong " rock" list ( it will beat other lists until it faces a " paper" list) then it's going to seem too strong to begin with but if people can switch to "paper" lists after they know what to do and after master declaration,  and the master doesn't have an answer then it may even be that the master turns out to not be good enough. 

It's a lot easier and quicker to learn how to play a master well than it is to learn how to counter it, but you ideally want to balance it at the level when both players know what they are doing, even if it means for a while the master seems too good. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

10 minutes ago, Adran said:

Then we are getting to " why didn't the Nexus player tech?" Is it because they were complacent and didn't bother? Or is it because they thought they were using the best list for the game ( possibly because it was the list they understood best, not necessarily because it was the best list in theory). 

If a list is a strong " rock" list ( it will beat other lists until it faces a " paper" list) then it's going to seem too strong to begin with but if people can switch to "paper" lists after they know what to do and after master declaration,  and the master doesn't have an answer then it may even be that the master turns out to not be good enough. 

It's a lot easier and quicker to learn how to play a master well than it is to learn how to counter it, but you ideally want to balance it at the level when both players know what they are doing, even if it means for a while the master seems too good. 

In this case I think he was getting complacent from the raw power. I think if we played the matchup again a few times, he'd start winning it.

To me that's what you're trying to reveal - if people know the matchup properly, are predicting things as much as they can, are adapting their lists as much as they can, etc, who wins out?

And my suspicion is that it is Nexus, but that's a really hard thing to demonstrate.

[Maniacal_cackle]

A simpler form is tournament winrate data, as you can generally assume that in tournaments these factors are accounted for (people are trying to win so are properly preparing).

Except... Tournament data is so small it's really hard to draw conclusions. Even the 10/12 games listed above is such as small number and is one event.

[hydranixx]

6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Results so far for the event:

• Radek loses with Nexus 2 to me (4-3)
• Nexus 1 beats Molly 1 (5-4)
  • They were worried about lethe's caress
• Radek wins with Nexus 2 vs Zoraida 1 (7-2)
• Nexus 2 beats zipp 2 (7-2)
• Nexus 2 beats misaki (7-6)
• Nexus 2 beats Euri 1 (5-2)
• Nexus 2 beats Tara 2 (7-6)
• Von Schtook beats Nexus2 (6-3)* 
  • Both players mid tables
• Nexus 2 beats dashel1 (8-2)
• Nexus 2 beats Mccabe 2 (8-4)
• Nexus 2 beats zoraida 1 (7-5)
• Radek nexus 2 beats Yan lo 2 (7-1)

So that's 12 nexus games in the event so far, and other than the two games listed above, there's 10 games. Some were close enough I assume it could go either way, and many were absolute blowouts.

Nexus is also the big threat on the block so people are pretty well prepared for it. Only one event, of course, but I think Longshanks and World Series data reflects similar results.

Did you include round 3 where Radek piloting Nexus2 beat my Maxine2 7-3 into this list of wins? Can't see it above. 

I added some specific tech pieces to try reach parity with Nexus2 but still got demolished pretty easily. I guess that probably adds to the 'complacency' factor you refer to; I counter picked fairly well against Radek's Nexus2, he didn't need to counter pick against my Maxine at all, and he still absolutely steamrolled me.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, hydranixx said:

Did you include round 3 where Radek piloting Nexus2 beat my Maxine2 7-3 into this list of wins? Can't see it above. 

I added some specific tech pieces to try reach parity with Nexus2 but still got demolished pretty easily. I guess that probably adds to the 'complacency' factor you refer to; I counter picked fairly well against Radek's Nexus2, he didn't need to counter pick against my Maxine at all, and he still absolutely steamrolled me.

Oh somehow I missed that one.

So another time he won against a high ranked player.

[hydranixx]

There's so many ways Wyrd could bring Nexus2 back in line.

My preference:

1. Remove the built-in  trigger on their Df.
2. Remove the built-in  trigger on Drain Life OR add a stipulation that this trigger may only be declared Once Per Turn per crew, so only one Nexus may declare it.
3. Add an Ability that reads: When this model activates, if another model sharing its name has already Activated this turn, it gains Slow.

[hydranixx]

They could probably also have their wound count reduced to 6 and Shambling nests' wound count reduced to 6 as well. They'd still have 30 wounds just for turning up, but at least it's not the current 37 wounds.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Noting that Hydranixx has used Nexus 2 to terrorize us xD

Have you lost a game with Nexus 2 yet, @hydranixx?

[Adran]

6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

A simpler form is tournament winrate data, as you can generally assume that in tournaments these factors are accounted for (people are trying to win so are properly preparing).

And, as you say, people don't always properly prepare, since your game was the final round of a tournament against a good player fighting for top spot, and you think Radek might have lost because he was complacent. 

Tournament win rate data isn't really a good source for this sort of thing ( far too many variables that get ignored, for example I wouldn't be surprised with Radek having a 4-0 or 3-1 record with any master in the game over a 4 round event, but they can't all be overpowered) , but it's probably the best anyone really has access to. 

 

[Kogan Style]

I too find Nexus2 to be very consistent to run because I think a crew led by them can cover pretty much every situation due to having activation control and ability to fit in OOK tech options as required. As a Nexus2 player I find I can always have activation control, the right models (on top of the 5 i start with for free), upgrades AND a soul stone cache.

I like Hydranixx's option 3, but I'd also suggest changing the Many Voices ability so that you must hire 2 more versions at a soul stone cost of 2 each/4 total (or some other cost that isn't 0 or 1)

Now the 3 Botanist list only has 2 stones in its cache, or do you drop something to keep the cache higher in assassinate pools? For my OOK heavy crews I now am forced to decide what is included since I cannot have it all. 

[cktAvatar]

17 minutes ago, Kogan Style said:

Now the 3 Botanist list only has 2 stones in its cache, or do you drop something to keep the cache higher in assassinate pools? For my OOK heavy crews I now am forced to decide what is included since I cannot have it all. 

The one mentioned above has 6. or do you mean after your suggested change?

[James Dyson]

Here's the video!

 

https://youtu.be/5QJzk3ym9zA

[Kogan Style]

1 hour ago, cktAvatar said:

The one mentioned above has 6. or do you mean after your suggested change?

Yes, I do mean after the change. 

[santaclaws01]

2 things that also need to be considered when evaluating Nexus2's performance in the MWS is the rulings on their two big rules questions.

1st, if a model is hit with multiple Join Us triggers, MWS rules that only one E&E summons.(Which I think is wrong)

2nd, if a model has shielded MWS rules that Burrowed Into The Spine will keep activating to deal damage until they run out of shielded or all 3 are used, whichever happens first. (Which I think is the most wrong of the 3 possible interpretations for it)

[hydranixx]

23 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Noting that Hydranixx has used Nexus 2 to terrorize us xD

Have you lost a game with Nexus 2 yet, @hydranixx?

I've lost once to Asami summoning Obsidian Oni to blow me off the board by end of turn 2.

1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

1st, if a model is hit with multiple Join Us triggers, MWS rules that only one E&E summons.(Which I think is wrong)

I think summoning more than one is wrong, irrespective of the intention of the rule or not. The keyword is already oppressive enough. 

16 hours ago, cktAvatar said:

The one mentioned above has 6. or do you mean after your suggested change?

It would be down to 1 or 2 Soulstones, depending on the variation of the build after the change in costs (ie Meredith + Eyes and Ears or another 8 cost model plus tax like Winston).

I don't think spending only 4ss to show up with 13AP and 37 Wounds in their current form brings them back in line enough. You'd just cut a Botanist or that 8 cost model from the list and still absolutely crush people with the same build.

[im_open_to_suggestions]

9 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

2 things that also need to be considered when evaluating Nexus2's performance in the MWS is the rulings on their two big rules questions.

1st, if a model is hit with multiple Join Us triggers, MWS rules that only one E&E summons.(Which I think is wrong)

2nd, if a model has shielded MWS rules that Burrowed Into The Spine will keep activating to deal damage until they run out of shielded or all 3 are used, whichever happens first. (Which I think is the most wrong of the 3 possible interpretations for it)

You cant just look at the MWS for the nexus performance tho.  Radek ran it in person at the largest event in scotland and went undefeated taking home the crown.  this is one of the few times that a master is showing strong across multiple metas in person worldwide and online.