Sonnia's Enraged by the Mage

[belorey]

Can i take the if:

A) I'm not withing 8" but i finish within 8".

B) I start within 8" but i don't finish within 8".

C) I'm not within 8" and i don't finish within 8" but i cross the  during the push.

[theamazingmrg]

I read it as only B).

 

When a friendly Witch Hunter model within 8" (this is the point the ability works out who it affects) is Pushed outside its own Activation, if it ended the move engaging an enemy model, it may take a melee action targeting that model.

 

The only point in that ability that looks at range is at the start (and we resolve Malifaux Abilities from left to right).  So, if a model is within 8" of Sonnia at the time it gets Pushed, it can attack someone it is engaging at the end of that push, but where the model actually ends up doesn't matter.

[Hipper Hopper Table Toper]

47 minutes ago, belorey said:

Can i take the if:

A) I'm not withing 8" but i finish within 8".

B) I start within 8" but i don't finish within 8".

C) I'm not within 8" and i don't finish within 8" but i cross the  during the push.

The model which is pushed must end its move in engagment range. So if it has an attack which has 1" range it needs to be in 1" at the end of this Push.

P.26/engagment paragraph 1: "Every model has an engagement range based on the range of its longest y Action. If an enemy model is within a friendly model’s engagement range and the friendly model has LoS to the enemy model, the friendly model is considered to be engaging the enemy model..."

 

Thats my point of view. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Hipper Hopper Table Toper]

Are you asking because, there is written "Outside" in the Text?

[Maniacal_cackle]

I think it is ambiguous.

Personally I think if Wyrd FAQs it, you will be required to start within 8". However, measurement timing is inherently ambiguous in Malifaux, and there's no clear-cut rules.

So it'll likely be up to the TO of each event.

[Adran]

20 minutes ago, Hipper Hopper Table Toper said:

The model which is pushed must end its move in engagment range. So if it has an attack which has 1" range it needs to be in 1" at the end of this Push.

P.26/engagment paragraph 1: "Every model has an engagement range based on the range of its longest y Action. If an enemy model is within a friendly model’s engagement range and the friendly model has LoS to the enemy model, the friendly model is considered to be engaging the enemy model..."

 

Thats my point of view. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I think you have missed the actual question. Your answer is right, but its not what is being asked. 

The question is where does the model that is pushed have to be related to Sonnia (and the Enraged by the mage aura).

I agree with Maniacal_Cackle that it is slightly ambiguous if you have to start the push in the aura, end the push in the aura or just move through the aura during the push. I would probably also go with starting in the aura, but can see the other arguments. 

 

[belorey]

44 minutes ago, Hipper Hopper Table Toper said:

The model which is pushed must end its move in engagment range. So if it has an attack which has 1" range it needs to be in 1" at the end of this Push.

P.26/engagment paragraph 1: "Every model has an engagement range based on the range of its longest y Action. If an enemy model is within a friendly model’s engagement range and the friendly model has LoS to the enemy model, the friendly model is considered to be engaging the enemy model..."

 

Thats my point of view. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I think we are talking about different thinks, i'm not asking about  range or be enganged. I'm asking if i push a Thrall after being damaged when can he do the Enraged by the Mage abilitie. Of course Thrall must finish his push within 1" of the model is gonna attack. 😂

[belorey]

43 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think it is ambiguous.

Yeah i have that feeling. Because is an aura i was thinking it would work as a Vent Steam so it works just being around any time during the push. But i can understand people with other argument.

 

46 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

So it'll likely be up to the TO of each event

That makes me sad... 😢

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, belorey said:

Yeah i have that feeling. Because is an aura i was thinking it would work as a Vent Steam so it works just being around any time during the push. But i can understand people with other argument.

The problem with this, is the Vent steam aura works like this because the Hazardous rules work that way, and so it is clear that is any part of your move takes you through Hazardous, you resolve that hazardous at the end of the action or ability

The model "is pushed" at the start of the push, which is why I would default to that timing if its not clear. 

[belorey]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

The problem with this, is the Vent steam aura works like this because the Hazardous rules work that way, and so it is clear that is any part of your move takes you through Hazardous, you resolve that hazardous at the end of the action or ability

The model "is pushed" at the start of the push, which is why I would default to that timing if its not clear. 

You are right, is more the hazardous terrain rule than the  

I think would be better if they just erase the (8" ) so Sonnia only need LoS. 😂

[Adran]

4 minutes ago, belorey said:

I think would be better if they just erase the (8" ) so Sonnia only need LoS. 😂

I don't think that would really answer the question, you would still need to know if you needed LOS at the start of the push, at the end, or just some point during the push.

 

[belorey]

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

I don't think that would really answer the question, you would still need to know if you needed LOS at the start of the push, at the end, or just some point during the push.

 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

The effect references After, so I lean towards the effect taking place if the model ends the Push within 8” of Sonnia. If it stated When instead of After, I would say that the effect would resolve based on if the model in question started the Push within 8” of Sonnia. “After a model is Placed” is the same language in my mind, and that is not resolved based on the starting point. So my answer is A.

[theamazingmrg]

6 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

The effect references After, so I lean towards the effect taking place if the model ends the Push within 8” of Sonnia. If it stated When instead of After, I would say that the effect would resolve based on if the model in question started the Push within 8” of Sonnia. “After a model is Placed” is the same language in my mind, and that is not resolved based on the starting point. So my answer is A.

It's "When a model within 8" is Pushed..." not "When a model is Pushed within 8"..."

 

The model has to be within 8" to begin with.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

5 hours ago, theamazingmrg said:

It's "When a model within 8" is Pushed..." not "When a model is Pushed within 8"..."

 

The model has to be within 8" to begin with.

I agreed that if the ability used when, it would reference the starting position of the Push. However, the ability says “After a friendly…” not “when a friendly…”.  After effects are check/resolved at different times than when effects.

I do get that position is checked prior to the push with “within 8” is pushed” read right to left. However, After specifies the generation timing as the first thing when read left to right, so the push is complete when the ability’s effect is generated. If the model is question is no longer within the Aura when generating and resolving the effect, it shouldn’t get the benefit.

 

[theamazingmrg]

50 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

I agreed that if the ability used when, it would reference the starting position of the Push. However, the ability says “After a friendly…” not “when a friendly…”.  After effects are check/resolved at different times than when effects.

I do get that position is checked prior to the push with “within 8” is pushed” read right to left. However, After specifies the generation timing as the first thing when read left to right, so the push is complete when the ability’s effect is generated. If the model is question is no longer within the Aura when generating and resolving the effect, it shouldn’t get the benefit.

 

<Timing><Target><Effect>

 

<Timing> = after something happens

<Target> = A model within 8" is Pushed outside of its activation (left to right - model within 8" comes before the Push)

<Effect> = Can do an attack

 

The timing of the ability doesn't change the fact that the model has to be within 8" when Pushed.  If it was within 8" when Pushed, it gets the attack.  If not, it doesn't.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

2 minutes ago, theamazingmrg said:

<Timing><Target><Effect>

 

<Timing> = after something happens

<Target> = A model within 8" is Pushed outside of its activation (left to right - model within 8" comes before the Push)

<Effect> = Can do an attack

 

The timing of the ability doesn't change the fact that the model has to be within 8" when Pushed.  If it was within 8" when Pushed, it gets the attack.  If not, it doesn't.

Abilities do not have targets. The timing for the Aura is after a push. If a model is no longer within 8” of Sonnia after a push, it is no longer affected by the Aura. A model not affected by an Aura doesn’t resolve the effect.

[theamazingmrg]

12 minutes ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Abilities do not have targets. The timing for the Aura is after a push. If a model is no longer within 8” of Sonnia after a push, it is no longer affected by the Aura. A model not affected by an Aura doesn’t resolve the effect.

I used Target for simplicity.  A model within 8" of Sonnia has to be Pushed.  Not  a model outside of 8" Pushed to within 8" of her. Otherwise it would be after a model ends a Push within 8" of Sonnia (See Mechanical Assistant on Mannequin, Pounce on First Mate,  etc.) 

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

29 minutes ago, theamazingmrg said:

I used Target for simplicity.  A model within 8" of Sonnia has to be Pushed.  Not  a model outside of 8" Pushed to within 8" of her. Otherwise it would be after a model ends a Push within 8" of Sonnia (See Mechanical Assistant on Mannequin, Pounce on First Mate,  etc.) 

I think that is where the ambiguity exists which earlier  posts mentioned. All previous “after … push” abilities use “after … ends a push”. Wyrd has shown with explorers and many master titles that they are cutting/changing clarifying language in abilities in favor of more room on the card. So I think it is more reasonable to assume that they are shortening “ends a Push” to “is Pushed” to save space and hope players still resolve like all previous “after push” abilities. Otherwise, the ability has to be read as when instead of after to make sense for applying the Aura’s effect before the push is complete. 

Is there any Aura currently in the game which lets you resolve the effects after a model leaves the Aura’s range? I don’t know of one, but I certainly do not know all Aura abilities. An example of the above would help to quash opinions in favor of option A.

Edit: I would also think that sequential effects would come into play for the ability as well. You wouldn’t half resolve a push, half resolve the Aura, finsh resolving the push, and then finish resolving the Aura.

[Kharnage]

5 hours ago, PiersonsMuppeteer said:

Is there any Aura currently in the game which lets you resolve the effects after a model leaves the Aura’s range? I don’t know of one, but I certainly do not know all Aura abilities. An example of the above would help to quash opinions in favor of option A.

This is really the kicker, to me "After a friendly Witch Hunter within 8 is pushed" gives a clear timing. The timing? AFTER a model, that is NOW CURRENTLY (post push) within aura 8, is pushed, resolve the rest of the ability. If I were TOing, I'd rule in favor of A, because anything else feels like a stretch. 

EDIT: Clarified timing

[theamazingmrg]

6 minutes ago, Kharnage said:

This is really the kicker, to me "After a friendly Witch Hunter within 8 is pushed" gives a clear timing. The timing? AFTER a model, that is CURRENTLY within aura 8, is pushed, resolve the rest of the ability. If I were TOing, I'd rule in favor of A, because anything else feels like a stretch. 

It's funny, because that is what feels like a stretch to me (and is probably the use of the word 'is').  If it was "After a model within 8 was pushed", there would be no discussion.  Was the model Pushed?  Yes.  Is it within 8?  Yes.

 

But because it uses active language, the Ability reads (to me) as saying "Is the model within 8" and being Pushed?" which conflicts with the "After" timing.  A model is not being Pushed after it has been Pushed.  It is only being Pushed if it is being Pushed.  Which is far too many Pushed for one paragraph.

[Kharnage]

1 minute ago, theamazingmrg said:

But because it uses active language, the Ability reads (to me) as saying "Is the model within 8" and being Pushed?" which conflicts with the "After" timing.  A model is not being Pushed after it has been Pushed.  It is only being Pushed if it is being Pushed.  Which is far too many Pushed for one paragraph.

If the ability said "When a model is pushed" I'd agree. But it's After. The logic to me; After "is", is "was".

[santaclaws01]

4 hours ago, Kharnage said:

This is really the kicker, to me "After a friendly Witch Hunter within 8 is pushed" gives a clear timing. The timing? AFTER a model, that is CURRENTLY within aura 8, is pushed, resolve the rest of the ability. If I were TOing, I'd rule in favor of A, because anything else feels like a stretch. 

I think you meant to say B instead of A, since A is starting point doesn't matter, ending point does. Whereas you're arguing that the starting point is what matters, and the ending point is irrelevant.

[PiersonsMuppeteer]

5 hours ago, theamazingmrg said:

It's funny, because that is what feels like a stretch to me (and is probably the use of the word 'is').  If it was "After a model within 8 was pushed", there would be no discussion.  Was the model Pushed?  Yes.  Is it within 8?  Yes.

 

But because it uses active language, the Ability reads (to me) as saying "Is the model within 8" and being Pushed?" which conflicts with the "After" timing.  A model is not being Pushed after it has been Pushed.  It is only being Pushed if it is being Pushed.  Which is far too many Pushed for one paragraph.

The use of is/was is passive voice in either case.

Regardless of language used, Auras are not checked once and resolved regardless of position. “All models inside the Aura’s area are affected by the Aura as long as they stay inside the area and remain in LoS of the generating object.” What would give the model permission to push outside the Aura and resolve an effect that requires it to be within the Aura’s range and in LoS of Sonnia? If you can Push out of range of the Aura, you can also Push out of LoS of the generating model as well. It is either both or none.

[Kharnage]

45 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

I think you meant to say B instead of A, since A is starting point doesn't matter, ending point does. Whereas you're arguing that the starting point is what matters, and the ending point is irrelevant.

No, my argument is that the push finishes and then checks to see if the model is in range. So a Thrall gets pushed from 10 inches away to 6 inches away, then we resolve EBTM, because it is AFTER the model is pushed that we check for range, at the timing of the ability.