Smuggler Colette

[Vangerdahast]

Disengage is a general action that let make a claw action.

Now you see me is about attack actions.

I think that you can't use now you see me with disengage.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, Vangerdahast said:

Disengage is a general action that let make a claw action.

Now you see me is about attack actions.

I think that you can't use now you see me with disengage.

 

Disengage lets the opponent take an attack action (claw).

So I think you could use it during a disengage. Which is... Weird.

[eddy]

Claw action is definitly an atack action. disengage text even says "after resolwing the atack... "

[Vangerdahast]

29 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Disengage lets the opponent take an attack action (claw).

So I think you could use it during a disengage. Which is... Weird.

I can agree with it but, like you, feel it à bit weird. It doesn't feel like the intent.

In this case, I would say, resolve completely the disengage action et then resolve  no you see me.

But not sure.

 

[eddy]

They are both after resolving atack action. So i guess active player chose order

[dancater]

14 hours ago, Vangerdahast said:

I can agree with it but, like you, feel it à bit weird. It doesn't feel like the intent.

In this case, I would say, resolve completely the disengage action et then resolve  no you see me.

In some ways I get this, but I disagree.

Disengage is an action to withdraw from combat which allows an opponent to make a attack to prevent such a move (or in limited cases do more). After that attack if Colette has a decoy marker within in 4" she can Now You See Me and place, removing the marker.

So Colette is engaged in melee and the disengage is required, the attack and its consequences occur, then afterwards as the enemy attempts to land a blow it is revealed that this was an illusion all along, or Colette and she then switches with an illusion, as the case may be.

The successful disengage may result in movement useful (for example getting Colette within 4" of a particular decoy marker) or mean no Now You See Me is necessary preserving the decoy marker. 

The unsuccessful disengage may cause all sorts of issues for the Colette player, including damage and effects if the opposing model has the (rare) Wicked trait. 

In essence Colette in engagement is both real and illusory, and that illusion is not revealed until some attempt at physical contact is made (the attack). Both Colette and the illusion will 'act' normally, attempting to preserve the mirage, hence the required disengage, feels consistent to me.  

[Adran]

On 9/5/2021 at 8:51 AM, eddy said:

How now you see mee.. interact with disengage? You first push then teleport or teleport first then push? 

I would say it interacts in exactly the same way as butterfly jump and Disengage.

(More detailed- Disengage works differently to everything else in the game. The rules aren't written to cover it very well at all. they were very careful to remove every other instance of an action happening inside an action, but they didn't here, so we don't really know if effects generated by the disengage action happen before the push or after. Its much worse if you add wicked and therefore triggers to the question. If you are about to try a disengage with Colette ask with your opponent what they think (or if you expect to take disengage actions with colette and want  o build up a decoy network ask at the beginning of the game). Neither is intrinsicly more powerful (although can give different results), and the opponent doesn't have to take an attack action against Colette if they don't want to. 

[Plaag]

On 9/4/2021 at 1:36 AM, Jordon said:

I can't really see any particular reason to play her in theme. She really only cares about Decoys, Doves and the occasional scheme marker. She doesn't really do anything with the performer keyword at all. 

Cassandra is about the only model you'd really want to piggyback off of Colette's shenanigans. Maybe Harata? Not sure how his aura's act with decoys. Other than that, I don't see a reason to stay in theme here. 

bad thing is that we have no model in keyword/faction that intaract with decoy markers at all

[Jinn]

Just now, Plaag said:

bad thing is that we have no model in keyword/faction that intaract with decoy markers at all

I'm still praying that whatever versatiles are in the supposed Arcanist Starter Box will have some kind of marker manipulation/removal. Please give us the versatile removal we need Wyrd, I don't want to face these new masters without it!

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Jinn said:

I'm still praying that whatever versatiles are in the supposed Arcanist Starter Box will have some kind of marker manipulation/removal. Please give us the versatile removal we need Wyrd, I don't want to face these new masters without it!

yes, i also told many times that hoff title is awful for factions with no any markers removal-block symbols of authority with no chance to score strat is very bad

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, Plaag said:

yes, i also told many times that hoff title is awful for factions with no any markers removal-block symbols of authority with no chance to score strat is very bad

lets hope that by the end of reveals that there isn't any factions without marker removal. ( Arcanist currently only have it on masters I think, but we have some keyword models still to see. This set of titles certainly introduced more markers, but I think it has also introduced more marker removal. Not all factions are at Bayou or Explorer level, but hopefully they can all do something)

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

lets hope that by the end of reveals that there isn't any factions without marker removal. ( Arcanist currently only have it on masters I think, but we have some keyword models still to see. This set of titles certainly introduced more markers, but I think it has also introduced more marker removal. Not all factions are at Bayou or Explorer level, but hopefully they can all do something)

also where are demise, healing ignoring

i think such techs must be in every faction

[Adran]

3 minutes ago, Plaag said:

also where are demise, healing ignoring

i think such techs must be in every faction

I disagree. I think every faction should have a way to answer the questions the game asked, but I don't think they need the same answer. 

Arcanists do have some way to ignore demise, but it is all in the form of the execute trigger. I know there are soem factions that have other ways to ignore demise, but not many, and in almost all cases it was either being in an aura or the defender had a way to deny it. 

Preventing healing is a tech that isn't, in my mind, needed in all factions, because they all have the way of doing it by killing. Likewise I don't think every faction needs equal access to healing. Each faction should have a way to be durable, and one of those ways could be healing, but another could be Armor. 

 

 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I disagree. I think every faction should have a way to answer the questions the game asked, but I don't think they need the same answer. 

Arcanists do have some way to ignore demise, but it is all in the form of the execute trigger. I know there are soem factions that have other ways to ignore demise, but not many, and in almost all cases it was either being in an aura or the defender had a way to deny it. 

Preventing healing is a tech that isn't, in my mind, needed in all factions, because they all have the way of doing it by killing. Likewise I don't think every faction needs equal access to healing. Each faction should have a way to be durable, and one of those ways could be healing, but another could be Armor. 

 

 

execute to ignore demise? lol

arcanists have no good card draw, execute on howard or duet

for example-how are u going to execute montressor or leveticus with their card draw?

[Adran]

17 hours ago, Plaag said:

execute to ignore demise? lol

arcanists have no good card draw, execute on howard or duet

for example-how are u going to execute montressor or leveticus with their card draw?

You're probably not. I would plan on killing the waifs to deny leviticus demise, and plan on a way to cause 4 extra damage this turn to kill Montressor. But then that is my plan to deal with them in at least 7 of the factions. 

(By the way Joss  Cojo also has execute. Last time I checked no faction had more than 4 ways to ignore demise, so 3 ways in arcanist is about average.)(Edit -I can't read)

the duet can potentially cause 3 executes in an activation, which probably strips a lot of the cards from montressor. Do that again with the second activation and he won't have card left to demise eternal.... (yes, its not going to happen. But the advantage execute has over something like the Archivists ignoring demise is that it matters even if they are on full health.)

[eddy]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

By the way Joss also has execute. 

No he doesn't have it. 

We dont even have henech with execute. Just 3 superexpensive enforcers

[Plaag]

2 hours ago, eddy said:

No he doesn't have it. 

We dont even have henech with execute. Just 3 superexpensive enforcers

adran is just playing in dreams-no way to kill wifes fast in arcanists 

before it could do colette, but she was nerfed too hard-sword trick was her only dmg on card

also he is talking abt passing terrifiying with duet like he has ruthless and fliping crows 7 into 6 stat like duet is hanchmen

[Vangerdahast]

@Plaag: what do you think about Smuggler Colette competitively?

Do you rate her lower or higher than errated Colette?

And would you hire Dorian Crowe?

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

6 hours ago, Plaag said:

yes, i also told many times that hoff title is awful for factions with no any markers removal-block symbols of authority with no chance to score strat is very bad

Seems pretty awful even if you have access to marker removal.

I wish they listened to you on Cadmus and now on Hoffman xD

[dancater]

OK, let's have a long post with a two way rant.

Doom saying is pointless. Simply put Arcanists are not going to get the magic wand of wonderful winning, every faction seems to complain about missing something, or not having easier access to something. Let's not clamber on that band-wagon. I've found an answer to beat every master, from every faction, in every scheme pool with at least reasonable consistency, that I've faced so far (including Levi). Not a single time have a sat down and thought at 50SS each side I simply cannot realistically win this game, and I've played other games where that was the case (power creep is a thing, something we largely don't appear to be seeing in this huge release which reworks the games most powerful models, which is amazing).

That's not to say I don't have trepidation or disappointments.

I've already mentioned on a different post that Hoffman's pylon mechanic worries me, it does not seem OP, it is not inherently broken, but it does seem open to strong negative play experiences in the right terrain/objective/positioning circumstances. I suspect it stays because (hopefully) such circumstances will be rare and the rework would require a lot of effort to re-balance what is nuHoff's core mechanic.

For nuKaeris, I don't think she is inherently bad, the rules seem fine in principle, powerful and also with flaws. I'm just not super inspired by the playstyle.

I really like nuMei and nuToni both.

Now nuMarcus is cool but I am disappointed that he does even less for his crew and certainly nothing seems to boost the substantial number of Chimera keyword that simply under performs currently, #save_our_Molemen.

Which brings us to my absolute favourite Malifaux master, the Mistress of the Star Theatre, Colette. I've always adored her, strong or weak.

This Colette's art is fine, makes sense to me. Her playstyle is, something I'll need to see on the table, but if I can keep Decoy markers and Doves out then it looks fine. I'm also fine that none of her crew (other than Cassandra kind of) play into the Decoy markers, that is really true for the unique introduced mechanics of most masters in this wave. It certainly doesn't reduce the effectiveness, and it makes thematic sense to me, the decoy's are illusory Colette's why would a Performer model react differently to them.

My biggest disappointment is threaded through all the Arcanist releases thus far and particularly with Colette, Marcus, Kaeris and to a lesser extent Hoffman.

The new master titles for Arcanists have, thus far, not hugely changed the in-faction and in-keyword power balance of our current models; the weak models remain weak the strong, strong. In most cases (except Mei) I think I'll play with basically the same core crews between the OG and title itineration's of the masters, which is disappointing (and has nothing to do with 'power' or absent mechanics). Many other factions have seen titles which shake the master up and also alter the crew selection significantly, we simply haven't. 

OG Colette was a tricksy, mobile schemer with a heavy emphasis on versatile crew inclusions and a distraction schtick. This nuColette introduces a new marker and is a little more attack based, a little less scheme, but otherwise I think is basically a highly mobile trickster, and her crew keyword synergy is even less, she certainly does nothing to boost the weaker Performer keyword models (Ice Dancer). Which is disappointing. 

I'm super curious to see Sandeep (our very powerful and flexible summoner) and if the Academic side get's any love. And Rasputina (I think our consensus weakest, or at least lower tier, master) and if they boost specific Frozen Heart models, will we see less Silent Ones and (again) Ice Dancer love (or for that matter love for a lot of the Frozen Heart models, the Gamin and Acolytes are not great, even the Golem is a schtick pick for me). 

Mechanics wise I'm not screamingly unhappy. There is nothing Arcanists need to be competitive (lots we could want, but who doesn't want everything). nuHoffman's Pylon mechanic is the biggest storm on the horizon I see and hopefully it's just some thunder and rain, not a typhoon. 

But I do wish we saw more innovation and in-keyword balancing from the current title reveals. There are a lot of titles I feel will play like a variation on the OG-master, not a radical new style and there are a lot of Arcanist models I simply can't (and thus don't) justify taking on the table. So far these titles have barely touched that, and in the case of nuColette seem to encourage me away from in-keyword theme and towards a versatile all-stars list, which I really dislike, especially seeing what happened with Youko and her use of distracted, I'd have loved to see a way to use distracted to boost Performer keyword damage and make nuColette and crew a more damage based selection (say is nuColette had a leader only ability that boosts Performer crew damage associated with the distracted condition, that would have been golden [hell even something with scheme markers instead like nuColette already has slightly baked into her melee attack]).    

 

[Plaag]

7 hours ago, Vangerdahast said:

@Plaag: what do you think about Smuggler Colette competitively?

Do you rate her lower or higher than errated Colette?

And would you hire Dorian Crowe?

 

she have mv 6, and at last dmg i wish to see on common colette, still can steal models, but is not so durable, also i wish her to place and drop decoy near her with bonus

i think she is pretty strong and as someone said here-she even dont need her keyword-only master intaract with doves and decoyes

also i think she can summon 2 doves-because we can command decoy and target make an action

abt dorian-giving dmg for distracted or stun is pretty strong, also passing boring with negatives, but maybe he will work better with common colette-she gives distracted and stun easier than title

[Adran]

14 hours ago, Plaag said:

adran is just playing in dreams-no way to kill wifes fast in arcanists 

before it could do colette, but she was nerfed too hard-sword trick was her only dmg on card

also he is talking abt passing terrifiying with duet like he has ruthless and fliping crows 7 into 6 stat like duet is hanchmen

I said that it wasn't going to happen.  (Unless you are using the duet against my Montressor, when it will probably happen 5 times out of 6 😳).

I even did tell you that in those cases my plan is not trying to execute. If I really want to kill montressor then I leave him on low wounds at the end of 1  turn, and then next turn try and kill him in 1 hit (or even better 1 automatic damage some how), so he uses the demise, and hope that I can get 4 damage on the second hit (probably needing a 3rd hit because of hard to wound, but a few things can manage it. ) That is probably going to be the focus of a turn to make sure that it works. (and probaly a fair chgunk of the turn be fore to tray and set up the right models in my force to be in the right places, and to have tried to drain ss as well). 

 

There are ways to kill waif in the first turn, its just how much it costs you and if it is worth the risk. (In general it isn't!). Its totally possible to get a fast focused Cerberus charge the enemy deployment zone before it activated on turn 1. Its almost always not worth the cost to do so, but that has the potential to kill 2 waifs.

 If you can't kill a waif it is probably because it is hidden, so Levi respawning there will cost him. If you have a buried miner. then you can often threaten one of the "safe" waifs". Its not always going to work, but I think it would be bad for the game if you could always do it.

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I said that it wasn't going to happen.  (Unless you are using the duet against my Montressor, when it will probably happen 5 times out of 6 😳).

I even did tell you that in those cases my plan is not trying to execute. If I really want to kill montressor then I leave him on low wounds at the end of 1  turn, and then next turn try and kill him in 1 hit (or even better 1 automatic damage some how), so he uses the demise, and hope that I can get 4 damage on the second hit (probably needing a 3rd hit because of hard to wound, but a few things can manage it. ) That is probably going to be the focus of a turn to make sure that it works. (and probaly a fair chgunk of the turn be fore to tray and set up the right models in my force to be in the right places, and to have tried to drain ss as well). 

 

There are ways to kill waif in the first turn, its just how much it costs you and if it is worth the risk. (In general it isn't!). Its totally possible to get a fast focused Cerberus charge the enemy deployment zone before it activated on turn 1. Its almost always not worth the cost to do so, but that has the potential to kill 2 waifs.

 If you can't kill a waif it is probably because it is hidden, so Levi respawning there will cost him. If you have a buried miner. then you can often threaten one of the "safe" waifs". Its not always going to work, but I think it would be bad for the game if you could always do it.

thats why each faction need to have min 1 model with special ability/action like ignore demise, healing, dont mind me,ignoring terrain, remove any marker etc

this model must be in faction keyword or versatile

[Maniacal_cackle]

13 minutes ago, Plaag said:

thats why each faction need to have min 1 model with special ability/action like ignore demise, healing, dont mind me,ignoring terrain, remove any marker etc

this model must be in faction keyword or versatile

I think it is a great strength of Malifaux that every faction has different strengths and weaknesses.  You can't play a faction without getting jealous of the tools that other factions have, yet the game remains surprisingly well balanced (7/8 factions represented in top 8 is pretty good!)

[trikk]

16 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think it is a great strength of Malifaux that every faction has different strengths and weaknesses.  You can't play a faction without getting jealous of the tools that other factions have, yet the game remains surprisingly well balanced (7/8 factions represented in top 8 is pretty good!)

And the one missing is the one supposed to be super OP