Pushed model killed by Hazardous Terrain

[Rex4r]

If a model dies due to damage from Hazardous Terrain it was pushed/placed/moved into by another model, is the model that generated the push/place/move it considered as a killer?

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 minutes ago, Rex4r said:

If a model dies due to damage from Hazardous Terrain, is the model that pushed it considered a killer?

The general consensus at the moment is no, it is not the pushing model that counts. You can see under the section of the rules about kill credit, it mentions that no one counts as killing for hazardous terrain.

Which doesn't fully make sense in light of everything else, but that's the best interpretation of specifically hazardous I think.

[trikk]

No. 
The model died to Hazardous Terrain don't count as killed by a model.

FAQ:
*If a model is generating Hazardous Terrain, and that Hazardous Terrain kills a model, is the model that is generating the Hazardous terrain considered to have killed the model?* a) No. Models killed by the effects of Hazardous Terrain aren’t treated as killed by any specific model.

[Rex4r]

1 minute ago, trikk said:

No. 
The model died to Hazardous Terrain don't count as killed by a model.

FAQ:
*If a model is generating Hazardous Terrain, and that Hazardous Terrain kills a model, is the model that is generating the Hazardous terrain considered to have killed the model?* a) No. Models killed by the effects of Hazardous Terrain aren’t treated as killed by any specific model.

It's different case.

This FAQ describe case when Model was killed by Hazardous aura.

I ask about move other model into Hazardous Terrain.

[Rex4r]

Why the question appeared:
I reread the FAQ and drew attention to point 1.9.

Quote

9. If a model is killed from falling damage, who is it treated as killed by?

a) The model that generated the move which caused the killed model to fall is treated as killing the model

In this case source of damage - falling damage (another effect, not Action), but model that generated the move treated as killing.

Case with move into Hazardous Terrain looks similar.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, Rex4r said:

Why the question appeared:
I reread the FAQ and drew attention to point 1.9.

In this case source of damage - falling damage (another effect, not Action), but model that generated the move treated as killing.

Case with move into Hazardous Terrain looks similar.

This is why the rules are really weird.

Hazardous gets specifically excluded from someone having credit, but falling doesn't I think?

Which makes no sense to me. If you push someone off a cliff, or if you push someone into hazardous, the result should be the same. But that's not exactly how the rules were written.

[Adran]

5 minutes ago, Rex4r said:

Why the question appeared:
I reread the FAQ and drew attention to point 1.9.

In this case source of damage - falling damage (another effect, not Action), but model that generated the move treated as killing.

Case with move into Hazardous Terrain looks similar.

The main difference is that the rule book tells us that being killed by hazardous terrain means you are not considered killed by another model. 

Whilst there are times it would be easy to say that model A pushed model B into the terrain and killed them, you get a lot of grey cases as you try and write rules to allow that.

So I assume they went for the simple option, as listed on Page 25 about killing

Killed models are always considered to be killed by the model that generated the Action or Ability that killed them (as well as by that model’s Crew). If a model is killed by another effect (such as a Condition or Hazardous Terrain), it is not considered to have been killed by any player, model, or Crew.

 

Why falling is different is a matter of speculation. It occurs during the action or effect (you can carry on walking after the fall if you live), its a 1 time instant damage source, with no further complications, and it isn't spelled out in the rules as to who counts as killing in that case, hence the FAQ. 

[trikk]

56 minutes ago, Rex4r said:

It's different case.

This FAQ describe case when Model was killed by Hazardous aura.

I ask about move other model into Hazardous Terrain.

While the question was different the answer explicitly says:
 

Quote

Models killed by the effects of Hazardous Terrain aren’t treated as killed by any specific model.

 

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

This is why the rules are really weird.

Hazardous gets specifically excluded from someone having credit, but falling doesn't I think?

Which makes no sense to me. If you push someone off a cliff, or if you push someone into hazardous, the result should be the same. But that's not exactly how the rules were written.

It's likely a question of repeatability, and limiting what people are going to use Obey/pushes to do.

If you have a model standing in or near Hazardous terrain, that's a repeatable source of damage.  Push a model back and forth (or Walk back and forth) and score easy points?

If you have a model standing on the top of a cliff, you're probably only going to be able to fall off once.

 

[santaclaws01]

25 minutes ago, solkan said:

If you have a model standing on the top of a cliff, you're probably only going to be able to fall off once.

Walking a model up a cliff and then making it fall at the end is pretty repeatable.

[Maniacal_cackle]

My theory is they wrote that section trying to think of things where models might die without a specific model acting, and then forgot hazardous can only occur due to actions and abilities (Because all movement is the result of actions or abilities).

Although in theory you could have a strategy that created a neutral movement?

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Walking a model up a cliff and then making it fall at the end is pretty repeatable.

Only if its a climbable cliff, and you're doing it with a walk action. (As long as the cliff is 2" high then you get to turn every 2" of walk into 1 damage. Not the most pwer from an obey, but usable)

 

3 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

My theory is they wrote that section trying to think of things where models might die without a specific model acting, and then forgot hazardous can only occur due to actions and abilities (Because all movement is the result of actions or abilities).

Although in theory you could have a strategy that created a neutral movement?

Last edition Hazardous happened if you started your activation in it, or moved through it. There were similar questions in the M2E FAQ about kill credit for hazardous effects, so I would guess they specified it didn't count so those questions would be answered even if they changed some of the hazardous rules. Sometimes you write a rule to cover a certain circumstance, and then during testing that circumstance may no longer be possible, but you don't always go back and change the original rule. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, Adran said:

Only if its a climbable cliff, and you're doing it with a walk action. (As long as the cliff is 2" high then you get to turn every 2" of walk into 1 damage. Not the most pwer from an obey, but usable)

 

Last edition Hazardous happened if you started your activation in it, or moved through it. There were similar questions in the M2E FAQ about kill credit for hazardous effects, so I would guess they specified it didn't count so those questions would be answered even if they changed some of the hazardous rules. Sometimes you write a rule to cover a certain circumstance, and then during testing that circumstance may no longer be possible, but you don't always go back and change the original rule. 

Well, that makes me think even more the idea was that if you take hazardous from an action or ability, that gets the kill credit, and if you take hazardous from something else it is neutral.

Same way for end of turn poison vs blood poisoning.

[Adran]

4 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Well, that makes me think even more the idea was that if you take hazardous from an action or ability, that gets the kill credit, and if you take hazardous from something else it is neutral.

Same way for end of turn poison vs blood poisoning.

I have no idea what the original idea was. Last edition there was a lot more times (although still not many over all) when you might want to kill a model without giving the kill credit for them, so it was useful to kill a model with conditions or hazardous as a way to bypass that. 

You're saying above that you think the idea of the rules line about hazardous not causing kill credit should never happen in a game at the moment. The hazardous rules seem written to me that whilst the effect to cause hazardous terrain is an action or ability, the hazardous terrain effect itself isn't from the action or the ability.  Chains of causality get complicated very quickly. I don't think Bulletproof+1 ought to protect you when you take a shooting action in a Hazardous 2 damage area for example. 

[Gheist]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

You're saying above that you think the idea of the rules line about hazardous not causing kill credit should never happen in a game at the moment. The hazardous rules seem written to me that whilst the effect to cause hazardous terrain is an action or ability, the hazardous terrain effect itself isn't from the action or the ability.  Chains of causality get complicated very quickly. I don't think Bulletproof+1 ought to protect you when you take a shooting action in a Hazardous 2 damage area for example. 

Yeah... if causality was so simple there would be no necessity for rules anyway.

It still feels kinda vexing when i kill someone with Jakuuna by using the Mask Trigger on my Melee Attack, movin the enemy model through my hazardous aura...and don't get the credit

[solkan]

I think the thing you have to remember is that the attribution rules have to be simple, straightforward, and looked at with the expectation that they’re going to be gamed by people using Obey’s and the like.  And since there are actual Lawyers in the game, the result is more likely “This is where we’ve put the fair/unfair line by various choices”.

Otherwise, you end with endless recursion like “I know if I punch you, Black Blood will trigger and my models will die.  Why shouldn’t I get the credit?  Or why shouldn’t you?”