Which would be your top Bayou models that you'd address in an upcoming errata?

[Math Mathonwy]

We don't (AFAIK) know whether there is going to be errata in the near future but let's skip that for a moment.

Also, the new versatiles coming out somewhere down the line will also shake things up for sure - especially as Bayou's current versatile offerings aren't all that superb (they aren't horrid, either, mind). But let's forget that as well for the time being.

What models or entire keywords (or Upgrages, I suppose!) do you think need some looking into? Feel free to list as many as you want and both ends of the power scale.

My number one pick would be Wizz-Bang and Tri-Chi on the whole. Both require you to jump through a ton of hoops that can be disrupted by the oppnent and the pay-off isn't all that different from what many other crews kinda start with. And with Wizz-Bang, many of the models are quite so-so in general and being squishy while requiring self-damaging - not a recipe for success. Both crews are also quite counterable if the opponent knows what they are doing when they learn that they're up against Wong or Brewmaster.

Wizz-Bang is probably more acutely in need of a boost and probably easier to address since I think that Tri-chi profiles are pretty fine in a vacuum but they don't really come together all that well once on the table. IME and all that, naturally.

As for other profiles that could use some looking into, I would start with McTavish. He has low stats and is generally squishy. I kinda like that he is more melee focused rather than the sniper he used to be but he does need something. Maybe simply Hard to Wound to make him more durable.

Finally, quite a few of the less expensive profiles need something but that's kinda true for the whole game, currently, so I dunno. Hopefully a new GG would somehow help cheap Minions but I'm not sure how.

[Edek]

I would love to see some more built-in suits in Tri-Chi. Shinobi could get the Mash on Have a Drink to reliable give out distracted and the Mask on Trusty Flask for the Push. Brewmaster could get Crows on Lure and Trusty Flask. But my dream is that the keyword could use Poison like Power Tokens (+ or suit). Even if it would be once per activation. A good few model don't use Poison in any way apart from being Obeyem.

Wizz-Bang I feel has a solid keyword (Sammy, Bokors, Alphonse) and Wong himself is really underwhelming.

[Math Mathonwy]

5 minutes ago, Edek said:

I would love to see some more built-in suits in Tri-Chi. Shinobi could get the Mash on Have a Drink to reliable give out distracted and the Mask on Trusty Flask for the Push. Brewmaster could get Crows on Lure and Trusty Flask. But my dream is that the keyword could use Poison like Power Tokens (+ or suit). Even if it would be once per activation. A good few model don't use Poison in any way apart from being Obeyem.

That's a good suggestion I feel.

5 minutes ago, Edek said:

Wizz-Bang I feel has a solid keyword (Sammy, Bokors, Alphonse) and Wong himself is really underwhelming.

Sammy, Bokors, and Alphonse are solid! Burt and Lightning Bugs aren't very solid at all, Flying and Stuffed Piglets are kinda fine but not very meaty, and Pigapult is very specialized.

The problem with Wizz-Bang IMO is that the sort of "meaty" models, Swine-cursed and Taxidermists are very expensive compared to their durability in a keyword that likes to hurt themselves. So you have all of these excellent support and sorta peripheral models but then the models that are supposed to be supported kinda fall flat. Or at least that's how I feel about them.

[Jesy Blue]

Akaname I feel don't do anywhere near as good in Bayou as they do in an Oni crew.

Burt is just kind of there as a model with nothing to draw anyone in to hire him.

 

[ShinChan]

I already "complained" many times about Wizz-Bang, after all it's my most played keyword (and I've played more than 100 game in the past 11 months).

There is a really nice "core for the crew" that are Alphonse, Sammy and Bokors. The others go from garbage to situational. There are some nasty combos like Pigapult + Sparks + Stuffed Piglets/Lightning Bugs, but that's all.

I played a bunch of Lightning Bugs in GG0 just because I have them painted and love the models. Also they were a decent pick for some schemes, but that's all. For 1ss more you have a Bokor that is better at almost everything.

• Wong's glowy needs to be reworked a bit, adding more synergy with the TNs (since Injured does not apply anymore to simple duels) and helping his crew to gain glowy without damaging them (for example one of those abilities that only works when he's the leader).
   
• Lightning Bugs need to be better at healing than a Bokor. Healing energy should be stat 6. Elemental Bolt should lose the  or at least ignore friendly fire. Maybe a trigger like Wild Shoot or Ricochet (the magic flush just going crazy randomly around)
   
• Olivia needs manipulative/disguised and Df5.
   
• Burt sucks. First of all, the needs HtK. Second, I really appreciate someone trying to get him some synergy with Gracie, but if that trigger in the gun is the only thing that they could come up with, I'm sorry, but that's awful and seems like someone wasn't in the mood of working that day. A decent trigger in the gun should be there (or at least one that is usable). That "Clockwork Grenade" is another lazy way of adapting the Cracker-Jack timing. I'm okay with having that grenade instead of the previous ability that he had in M2E, but not even a trigger to make it more interesting? No interaction with enemy glowy?
  He is an example of how to ruin a model, from a reference and gameplay perspective.

• I'm not a fan of Taxidermist, but apparently some people seem to like them, so I'm not going to complain about them. IMHO they're too expensive for what they bring to the table and being 8ss just to justify putting an upgrade (Inferiority Complex) bumping their price to 10ss seems ridiculous to me.
   
• Swine Cursed are totally fine. They're missiles and they fulfill that role perfectly. Their issue is actually Wong being lackluster.
   
• Pigapult is fine, although it was better before that Errata ruined its shockwave.
   
• Bokors need to change that Deja Vu for Surge or getting +1Wd and +1 Cost.

[SEV]

I totally agree with the above. Wong simply needs better minions : Lighning Gobs an werepiggies are just meh...

As for Tri-Chi, I think is main problem is being a condition master. I don't have much experience with that playstyle, but must condition master seems to be in the low tier of their keyword... So maybe it's a systemic problem (how the game works)? 

Dor individual models that need a buff, my top pick is the wrastlers. Zipp keyword is fine but kind of elite because is to low cost minions are either super specialized (flying beacons) or just not good enough except as a counter pick in condition heavy matchup (wrastlers). 

McTavish is not a 9 stone model... He's way to squishy and doesn't bring enough to the table.

Burt is not super good, but at least he as some utility as a versatile (maybe just dropping is cost by 1?).

Finaly Bokor are super strong models, they probably need to be debuff a little.

 

[Thatguy]

3 hours ago, Edek said:

I would love to see some more built-in suits in Tri-Chi. Shinobi could get the Mash on Have a Drink to reliable give out distracted and the Mask on Trusty Flask for the Push. Brewmaster could get Crows on Lure and Trusty Flask. But my dream is that the keyword could use Poison like Power Tokens (+ or suit). Even if it would be once per activation. A good few model don't use Poison in any way apart from being Obeyem.

I feel like Tri-Chi is in a pretty good place.

I do think that. MoonShinobi could get some love. They can hitpretty hard, but seriously underperform on defense next to monks. A mask on take a drink would be great so they can do engagement tricks like Fermented. I think giving them hard to wound or Fermented's poison armor would be great.

I don't think Brewmaster needs more built in triggers. When Brewmaster underperforms for me it's not because he's not doing enough during his activation, but because he's dead. If the opponent cheated to avoid getting poison 3 or cleared thier poison Brewmaster is in a bad spot. He's designed to be a tarpit, but he only does that when everyone is sitting at poison 3 or higher. He is pretty survivable when dealing with slow beaters and effective df7. If they aren't poisoned he's a df5 Master with no real defensive tech. I'd like him to get something he can use when the opponent isn't poisoned. Like hard to wound, manipulative, or anything really. Too Drunk to Care would be good. It would still leave him vulnerable to poison removal, but they would have to use it both on Brewie and thier beater. 

 

I'd have to think a bit about individual models I think need a boost. 

 

[ShinChan]

3 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

Akaname I feel don't do anywhere near as good in Bayou as they do in an Oni crew.

Burt is just kind of there as a model with nothing to draw anyone in to hire him.

 

I don't know what Akanames do in an Oni crew, but they're decent for their cost for Tri-Chi, so I wouldn't change much about them. Df 5 or 5 Wounds would be a nice add to them, specially if you compare them with Poison Gamins.

Tri-Chi has a lot of TNs (either high number or suits) to meet in order to operate at standard level. Add that to the lack of card draw and how easy is to counter the "poison game" and suddenly is just better to bring a bunch of OOK models + Whiskey Golem and the list will be waaaay more competitive than any in-keyword list.

First thing I would add is some sort of aura that prevents friendly Tri-Chi models from losing poison at the end of the turn. That would help the models that actually use poison on themselves to keep using it a little longer (and also it will help to keep track of it). The other adjustment I would make is that Fingers should be able to reduce poison in friendly models to draw extra cards. That would help the crew to compete and it will give a purpose to stack poison in friendly models that don't have a use for it.

[Thatguy]

10 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

but they're decent for their cost for Tri-Chi, so I wouldn't change much about them.

What do you use them for? I usually bring I've to make scrap for Cooper and that's about it. 

11 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

First thing I would add is some sort of aura that prevents friendly Tri-Chi models from losing poison at the end of the turn.

I always thought this was half the point of Trusty Flask.

[ShinChan]

2 hours ago, Thatguy said:

What do you use them for? I usually bring I've to make scrap for Cooper and that's about it. 

They're useful for Research Mission, Leave your Mark, boosting Brewmaster with focus, scraps for Sparks and Cooper or even just to put extra poison on Fingers and Brewie. 

2 hours ago, Thatguy said:

I always thought this was half the point of Trusty Flask.

I don't know in your games, but in mine, usually is not enough  

[Math Mathonwy]

Wrastlers is a great shout-out - definitely one of the units most in need of help along with Lightning Bugs!

As for Akaname, they also have a 2" melee range and give out Slow and Poison on a successful hit - they are pretty amazing for the points IMO with the only weakness being super squishy.

As for Tri-Chi - I could see them getting some way of limiting Condition Removal in general. Like an Aura for someone in which Conditions couldn't removed or something like that. Naturally care should be taken to not enable unending Focus  

[Thatguy]

5 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Wrastlers is a great shout-out - definitely one of the units most in need of help along with Lightning Bugs!

Maybe it's just a 5ss million thing. 

I'm not a fan of Lacroix Raiders and Banjoistas either. 

[ShinChan]

6 minutes ago, Thatguy said:

Maybe it's just a 5ss million thing. 

I'm not a fan of Lacroix Raiders and Banjoistas either. 

Banjonistas are bad, but at least are a summon. Lacroix Raiders are garbage. No real defensive tech and they get a  to their attack (8") if the enemy doesn't have any Cover/Concealment, the only moment they wouldn't need it... There's some synergy there about driving cards, but your stones in Kin are better expend somewhere else.

[Edek]

On 2/8/2021 at 7:37 PM, ShinChan said:

I don't know what Akanames do in an Oni crew, but they're decent for their cost for Tri-Chi, so I wouldn't change much about them. Df 5 or 5 Wounds would be a nice add to them, specially if you compare them with Poison Gamins.

Tri-Chi has a lot of TNs (either high number or suits) to meet in order to operate at standard level. Add that to the lack of card draw and how easy is to counter the "poison game" and suddenly is just better to bring a bunch of OOK models + Whiskey Golem and the list will be waaaay more competitive than any in-keyword list.

First thing I would add is some sort of aura that prevents friendly Tri-Chi models from losing poison at the end of the turn. That would help the models that actually use poison on themselves to keep using it a little longer (and also it will help to keep track of it). The other adjustment I would make is that Fingers should be able to reduce poison in friendly models to draw extra cards. That would help the crew to compete and it will give a purpose to stack poison in friendly models that don't have a use for it.

Brewmaster can get an ability that when he is the Crew Leader friendly models don't lower their Poison number at the end of turn. As for Fingers a 100% agree, his card draw works similar(ish) to Wong's but Wong's is simply way better. Also it could be a bonus action. If he gets 2 actions outside of A Toast I feel he might be a very solid model. Right now I probably prefer Brin over him, since I get better card draw, Sober Up and 7 cards. 

[Math Mathonwy]

On 2/9/2021 at 9:12 PM, Thatguy said:

Maybe it's just a 5ss million thing. 

I'm not a fan of Lacroix Raiders and Banjoistas either. 

Well, all of those four are way below Survivors, Bushwhackers, Squealers, Slop Haulers and Gators (and I'm not a big fan of Gators) so I'd say that they definitely are below the curve even for 5SS Minions.

[Nukemouse]

Brewmasters distract no longer being capped at 2.

[Jesy Blue]

If the Riddles In The Dark action did not cap out at 2, other models that have it (i.e.: Youko), would be overly destructive!

[ShinChan]

13 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Well, all of those four are way below Survivors, Bushwhackers, Squealers, Slop Haulers and Gators (and I'm not a big fan of Gators) so I'd say that they definitely are below the curve even for 5SS Minions.

Bushwhacker cost 6ss

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

Bushwhacker cost 6ss

Haha, I originally had Smugglers there but remembered that they are 6SS and then for some reason substituted Bushwhackers 

But my point still was that even by the low standards of 5SS Minions, Wrastlers, Lightning Bugs, Banjos and Raiders are in the low end of the spectrum.

[SEV]

11 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

But my point still was that even by the low standards of 5SS Minions, Wrastlers, Lightning Bugs, Banjos and Raiders are in the low end of the spectrum

They're. Test subject might be better at 4ss...

[Thatguy]

2 hours ago, SEV said:

Test subject might be better at 4ss...

Test subjects are really good at 4.

Any wishlist fixes? I'll post some of mine in a bit 

[Thatguy]

2 hours ago, Thatguy said:

Any wishlist fixes? I'll post some of mine in a bit

Yeah I'm quoting myself.

That guy's wishlist:

Banjoistas- either gives them a built in Tome on Rebel Tell or drop them to 4ss and lose a Wound and point of DF. As is they don't have much use other than summoning for Condition Removal as they don't add anything that isn't done better by a slightly more expensive model or multiple cheap ones. Thier condition removal is nice, but it requires a precious summon and a Time in hand while being in an easy to remove model and being on a low stat making it hard to get off offensively. Giving them a built in suit would make them more consistent as condition removal. Alternatively making them cheaper would help them work as cheap tarpits and open up the option to summon two in a turn for Dueling Banjo bombs. 

 

Wrastlers- I'd like to see them have better crew synergy. Like something like Diving Charge to get though pianos. It My Time is Now for more survivability.  I personally would like them to get a bonus action like Mancha's old Off The Top Rope where they get move or charge bonuses for being in base to base with blocking terrain. Maybe something like: "Push this model it's Wk towards target blocking Terrain. Until end of turn it ignores terrain and other models when taking the Charge action"

[Scoffer]

3 hours ago, Thatguy said:

Banjoistas- either gives them a built in Tome on Rebel Tell or drop them to 4ss and lose a Wound and point of DF. As is they don't have much use other than summoning for Condition Removal as they don't add anything that isn't done better by a slightly more expensive model or multiple cheap ones. Thier condition removal is nice, but it requires a precious summon and a Time in hand while being in an easy to remove model and being on a low stat making it hard to get off offensively. Giving them a built in suit would make them more consistent as condition removal. Alternatively making them cheaper would help them work as cheap tarpits and open up the option to summon two in a turn for Dueling Banjo bombs. 

I think Banjonistas are fine and their ability to move friendy models at the start of activation is enough for me to hire 1 in every Somer list. It also makes them a great summon in mid-game, when you need to take your models out of engagement or just provide some extra movement.

Making them 1ss cheaper will be too good - summonning two with a 12 will make Big Hats super mobile.

[Da Git]

9 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

If the Riddles In The Dark action did not cap out at 2, other models that have it (i.e.: Youko), would be overly destructive!

Wow! Someone thinks Youko is OP... or even good

She's by far the worst master and keyword in TT and one of the weaker ones in the game (imo)

For Bayou, as someone who plays Zipp (in Outcasts!) I would say Wrastlers, maybe an extra wound and a 1"ml

No idea what else... I'd be interested to see how Wong goes into Cadmus actually... Lots of low stats for his Shockwaves...

[Math Mathonwy]

27 minutes ago, Da Git said:

For Bayou, as someone who plays Zipp (in Outcasts!) I would say Wrastlers, maybe an extra wound and a 1"ml

I hate 0"Ml since it basically often gives the opponent an irresistable Slow Aura in a way which is crazy. But if anyone should have a 0" Ml in this game, I would argue that Wrastlers are kinda the perfect fit for it. So I would actually keep them at 0" but give them a boost to their mobility and survivability.

27 minutes ago, Da Git said:

No idea what else... I'd be interested to see how Wong goes into Cadmus actually... Lots of low stats for his Shockwaves...

I doubt it would be amazing but I'm willing to be surprised. That said, I would never pick Wong in his current form against ES in a tournament since I feel that there are several very bad match-ups for Wong in there.