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Taelor: What is She Missing?


Davos

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  • 3 months later...

The mysterious answer you're all running around is "something".  Taelor is missing something.  It's a thing other 9 and 10 stone models get.  She's a 3/4/6 beater, but other 9 and 10 soulstone models get:

Archie: Flurry, for 3 attacks.  

Hayridden: Min 5 when you absolutely need to kill something, friendly healing, summoning.

War Pig: Fast, 4 fanastic triggers (one of each suit).  

Hinamatsu: Onslaught, on a henchman (so can stone for it), flurry, potentially all the attacks.

Manos: Lantern of Souls, Reliquary for Lantern

Frankly she just needs the something in there.  No not more random text that might do something, something solid.  Like Flurry, or giving models adversary, or Reckless.  

 

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1 hour ago, RisingPhoenix said:

The mysterious answer you're all running around is "something".  Taelor is missing something.  It's a thing other 9 and 10 stone models get.  She's a 3/4/6 beater, but other 9 and 10 soulstone models get:

Archie: Flurry, for 3 attacks.  

Hayridden: Min 5 when you absolutely need to kill something, friendly healing, summoning.

War Pig: Fast, 4 fanastic triggers (one of each suit).  

Hinamatsu: Onslaught, on a henchman (so can stone for it), flurry, potentially all the attacks.

Manos: Lantern of Souls, Reliquary for Lantern

Frankly she just needs the something in there.  No not more random text that might do something, something solid.  Like Flurry, or giving models adversary, or Reckless.  

 

taelor is great model for 9ss, while hinamatsu is just broken, haeredin is solid for what he is doing, war pig is a minion, carl! and cost 10, manos is normal model like taelor

one thing i dont like on her card-ability to place and make atack to summoned model

it must be reworked somehow, because models could be summoned outside of aura/discard a card and than try to atack is resourse spending/u dont want always place where model was summoned

i would say-maybe they make it "when model is summoned in 6", this model can make atack ignoring range, summoned model is treated as relenting this atack"

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1 hour ago, RisingPhoenix said:

We have very different definitions of "great".

At best she rises to the level of "passable."  Hannah, Arik, Mad Dog, Alyce, Montressor, that's her direct compares and oh boy she's easily the worst of them.  

hannah/arik/mad dog cost 10

while rusty is not very good model-lack of mobility/ignoring cover, ff, concealment

and monty is super good at jack only

comparing to alice-taelor is very mobile, have 2"melee, great stat/triggers

try to use her wisely

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1 minute ago, Plaag said:

try to use her wisely

You know, you really seem incapable of responding without throwing shade.  Feels insecure.  

One of the big problems with Taelor is that there isn't a lot of ways to 'use her wisely' because she's not a model with a lot of utility or where you make a lot of choices.  Her big choices are basically whether to use Bring It to pull something in towards you and then hit them, or use her 7" charge to run into them and hit them where they are.  It's usually pretty straightforward as to which you want.  

Other than that, your choices are to stone for Relic Hammer triggers (none of which are amazing) and... oh no wait, that's it, everything else is automatic or a choice your opponent makes.  Usually when a beater is this straightforward and limited it's gonna get Flurry/Fast or some beneficial Aura, something.   I suppose we could say that all of those models are "broken", but I think when we are saying that the majority of nine stone beaters in the game are "broken" maybe we should just admit Taelor is kinda bad.  She's not even that durable (again compared to other 9 stone beaters).  

I mean Francois LaCroix (flurry, stat 7 3/5/6, can hand out Adversary), Fuhatsu (it's Fuhatsu), Harata Ngaatoro (gives everyone in range strong abilities), Kudra (2/3/4 with built in Onslaught, poison), if you think Hinematsu, Archie, and War Pigs are all "broken".  

Maybe, just maybe, maybe all those models aren't problems but the problem lies elsewhere.  In some other 9 stone model that just doesn't compare.  

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1 hour ago, RisingPhoenix said:

You know, you really seem incapable of responding without throwing shade.  Feels insecure.  

One of the big problems with Taelor is that there isn't a lot of ways to 'use her wisely' because she's not a model with a lot of utility or where you make a lot of choices.  Her big choices are basically whether to use Bring It to pull something in towards you and then hit them, or use her 7" charge to run into them and hit them where they are.  It's usually pretty straightforward as to which you want.  

Other than that, your choices are to stone for Relic Hammer triggers (none of which are amazing) and... oh no wait, that's it, everything else is automatic or a choice your opponent makes.  Usually when a beater is this straightforward and limited it's gonna get Flurry/Fast or some beneficial Aura, something.   I suppose we could say that all of those models are "broken", but I think when we are saying that the majority of nine stone beaters in the game are "broken" maybe we should just admit Taelor is kinda bad.  She's not even that durable (again compared to other 9 stone beaters).  

I mean Francois LaCroix (flurry, stat 7 3/5/6, can hand out Adversary), Fuhatsu (it's Fuhatsu), Harata Ngaatoro (gives everyone in range strong abilities), Kudra (2/3/4 with built in Onslaught, poison), if you think Hinematsu, Archie, and War Pigs are all "broken".  

Maybe, just maybe, maybe all those models aren't problems but the problem lies elsewhere.  In some other 9 stone model that just doesn't compare.  

francois, hinamatsu, fuhatsu are all broken and need to be nerfed

its not good to compare 9ss hanch with enforsers like harata/archie, because 1vs1 taelor just kill them easily or defend object she need

i will repeat-for 9ss hanch taelor have very good combination of abilities/actions, im not saying u will hire her ook, but this is good for keyword-she is auto pick in victorias crew

best model in vics crew-is 10ss in your pool to save your masters/hanchmens; most common i take 6ss in pool in vics crew, but many upgrades

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37 minutes ago, Plaag said:

francois, hinamatsu, fuhatsu are all broken and need to be nerfed

its not good to compare 9ss hanch with enforsers like harata/archie, because 1vs1 taelor just kill them easily or defend object she need

i will repeat-for 9ss hanch taelor have very good combination of abilities/actions, im not saying u will hire her ook, but this is good for keyword-she is auto pick in victorias crew

best model in vics crew-is 10ss in your pool to save your masters/hanchmens; most common i take 6ss in pool in vics crew, but many upgrades

Ah.  Well until this great era of nerfing begins where we nerf all of Malifaux to make Taelor good, I think I'm going to keep running into opponents playing good models for 9 stones, and keep not wanting to play Taelor.  

But one problem - if Taelor is going to be spending soulstones to become so great, what's wrong with comparing her to 10 and 11 stone hires?  You can't say it's unfair to compare her to Hooded Rider or Izamu on the one hand, and on the other say that you're going to be replacing her missing durability with 3+ stones.  If you're doing that she's costing the same as Hooded/Dead Rider and oh boy she's definitely not those models.  

Effectively we're saying Taelor is a 12 stone hire, and wow she does not feel like a 12 stone hire, not even with an extra 6 wounds.  Or a flurry.  At that point we're getting into second master range of prices, and she just doesn't compare.  

Overall, I'd rather have a model that could keep up with good models because it's a good model.  I certainly don't think she's an auto take for the Viks (frankly I'd rather spend 2 more stones to get Mad Dog or Arik or spend the same and get Talos or Sue).  I think she's about what she looks like - a 9 stone model that demands stones to live, and "isn't broken like the good 9 stone models" (as well as being effectively the same cost as a Hooded Rider - which I suppose is also broken). 

Is Taelor is more expensive than the Valedictorian (also broken)?  To be as durable, she pretty much has to be.

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9 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Ah.  Well until this great era of nerfing begins where we nerf all of Malifaux to make Taelor good, I think I'm going to keep running into opponents playing good models for 9 stones, and keep not wanting to play Taelor.  

But one problem - if Taelor is going to be spending soulstones to become so great, what's wrong with comparing her to 10 and 11 stone hires?  You can't say it's unfair to compare her to Hooded Rider or Izamu on the one hand, and on the other say that you're going to be replacing her missing durability with 3+ stones.  If you're doing that she's costing the same as Hooded/Dead Rider and oh boy she's definitely not those models.  

Effectively we're saying Taelor is a 12 stone hire, and wow she does not feel like a 12 stone hire, not even with an extra 6 wounds.  Or a flurry.  At that point we're getting into second master range of prices, and she just doesn't compare.  

Overall, I'd rather have a model that could keep up with good models because it's a good model.  I certainly don't think she's an auto take for the Viks (frankly I'd rather spend 2 more stones to get Mad Dog or Arik or spend the same and get Talos or Sue).  I think she's about what she looks like - a 9 stone model that demands stones to live, and "isn't broken like the good 9 stone models" (as well as being effectively the same cost as a Hooded Rider - which I suppose is also broken). 

Is Taelor is more expensive than the Valedictorian (also broken)?  To be as durable, she pretty much has to be.

im just telling u abt taelor in competitive game-she is a good, balanced model

u can say what u think, but it will not change that correct use of taelor in vics crew gives many opportunities and dmg

 

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I think Taelor needs a rework on her signature ability (Welcome to Malifaux). The rest of her is in line with what should be doing, and Ruthless is a very useful tech ability. 

 

I highly disagree with her being autotake with Viks... She basically does the same than them (she's a beater that is gonna suck a lot of resources). 

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Whenever an Enemy model with a Summon upgrade ends a movement within 6", this model may place herself in base contact with the Enemy model and take a :ToS-Melee: action targeting that model. After resolving the attack, the Enemy model gains a Greeted token. Models with Greeted tokens are ignored for this ability 

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5 hours ago, Zebo said:

Whenever an Enemy model with a Summon upgrade ends a movement within 6", this model may place herself in base contact with the Enemy model and take a :ToS-Melee: action targeting that model. After resolving the attack, the Enemy model gains a Greeted token. Models with Greeted tokens are ignored for this ability 

Maybe go with either once per turn, or keep the discard requirement, and add a "plus one card" to keep it more manageable, instead?

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I've actually used Taelor a couple of time recently and played against her once and I am coming to the conclusion she doesn't really need anything. With the new Viks, which is where I've used her a few time recently, the Student giving her fast and Taelor companioning off of her with the Emissary trinket has been very effective. At a tournament last weekend she took out a model in round 2 and round 3 with that maneuver. Coupled with the new Viks you have a combined force that can pretty quickly be overwhelming. 

Playing against her my opponent had SoDP on her and she came in first activation of turn 1 to take out Santiago. The game turned out OK for me, but I think that was actually a pretty good move based on where she was positioned. 

Anyway, a little high-priced for a 2ap model, but she can get 3 without too much trouble. She has a good charge range and great damage. The ability to build in the ram to get puncture give her very high reliability if you need an enemy model erased from the board.  

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1 hour ago, Trample said:

I've actually used Taelor a couple of time recently and played against her once and I am coming to the conclusion she doesn't really need anything. With the new Viks, which is where I've used her a few time recently, the Student giving her fast and Taelor companioning off of her with the Emissary trinket has been very effective. At a tournament last weekend she took out a model in round 2 and round 3 with that maneuver. Coupled with the new Viks you have a combined force that can pretty quickly be overwhelming. 

Playing against her my opponent had SoDP on her and she came in first activation of turn 1 to take out Santiago.

That sounds like she's doing the job of a 10ss Hench, at what? 25 stones? I know the Emissary is good to have either way, but to have to support her so much to get reasonable performance out of her feels bad. She needs a little more independence from the crew, or alternatively a little more mechanical synergy, to give her a reason to support her instead of just grabbing another OOK model and giving it the same support.

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1 hour ago, Rabbitknight said:

That sounds like she's doing the job of a 10ss Hench, at what? 25 stones? I know the Emissary is good to have either way, but to have to support her so much to get reasonable performance out of her feels bad. She needs a little more independence from the crew, or alternatively a little more mechanical synergy, to give her a reason to support her instead of just grabbing another OOK model and giving it the same support.

Well, the total package is 23 stones. However, the Student is free with Viks2. I wouldn't pay for her independently. So we're at 19 at the most. I wouldn't count the Emissary's cost toward just making Taelor work. He's allocating 1ap to her turn 1 certainly. He is probably donating a couple of free actions to the combo of Taelor and the Student throughout the game as well. Overall he isn't there to solely support Taelor. That initial Plenty of Wares AP effectively unlocks the Student's ability to transfer AP to Taelor over the course of the game.  So let's say the Emissary is giving her 10% of his regular AP and 40% of his free AP. If you wanted to cost that out I would say only 2 points would be donated to the cause. 

Which OOK model would you slot in there? Mad Dog? He's definitely a better model, but does slightly different things (and is certainly improved with an Emissary). Arik maybe, he does about the same job but he costs 11. Taelor has about the closest thing to guaranteed damage in faction with a stat 7, 3/4/6 with a puncture trigger and the ability to use soulstones. 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

At 19 stones aren't we discussing second master prices?  You could have Zipp dropping Pianos and tossing people around like he loves to with that friggin aura, Parker Barrows putting down scheme markers and shooting people, Ironheart charging in and swinging his heavy claws, etc. 

No one is disputing Taelor has a good attack at stat 7 3/4/6.  It's just the lack of good triggers (that similarly priced models get), the lack of a third attack (that, again, similarly priced models get), the lack of survivability, and the lack of secondary utility are too many things for a 9 stone model to lack.  She doesn't need to get all of them, certainly not.  But she needs to get some of them. 

We could upgrade Knock Aside to Shove Aside, Puncture to Critical Strike, and give her Flurry.  Then you'd be dumping the stones into making a truly scary model live.  I'd defend her if you made those simple changes - and she'd still be as easy to kill, stone dependent, and lacking utility as she was before. 

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I've probably said it before, but I don't feel like Taelor nees anything more. Her attack is one of the best non-master attacks in the game, she's fast, she has shrug off so she doesn't get shut down by slow or stunned and the combination of a 2" range and battle tempo can be brutal against 1" melee models.

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12 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

It's just the lack of good triggers

Puncture and from the heavens are some of the best triggers in the game. I'd rate them as A tier for sure. Knock aside is also excellent, and is at least B tier. All three are worthy of stone expenditure. Bloody fate you could rate as C tier, but it is still a trigger that is nice to see when it comes up.

So triggers aren't necessarily what I'd worry about with her.

Only shame about puncture is I don't think there's any good focus engines to focus her up (although you could make an argument for scavenger) or card draw engines (although maybe there's a Yannic build I'm missing, or again scavengers). But for example if you double focus Taelor there is a a very good chance she is popping something for 10+ damage (even through hard to wound or soulstones).

Also worth noting that Knock Aside gets more powerful the more reliable it is, and a stat 7 knock aside is pretty impressive.

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11 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Puncture and from the heavens are some of the best triggers in the game. I'd rate them as A tier for sure. Knock aside is also excellent, and is at least B tier. All three are worthy of stone expenditure. Bloody fate you could rate as C tier, but it is still a trigger that is nice to see when it comes up.

Um, really?  Knock aside is one of those triggers I don't even want to declare half the time if I flip it straight.  Like if Taelor charges someone and flips Knock Aside first action do you declare the trigger?  Probably not.  If you do it second action?  Well you probably don't want to allow the model to disengage for free since she has a 2" range, so again maybe not.  A trigger I'm declaring only occasionally even when I naturally flip it is automatic D tier (triggers I often won't declare even when I naturally flip them).

From the Heavens is again situational, half the models in the game don't even care.  When it works it's +2 damage, your opponent gains a soulstone.

Now puncture takes a bit of math and I understand a lot of people are bad at it, but if you do the numbers for Taelor, a puncture trigger adds +0.6 damage.  Critical strike adds +1.  Stoning gets even worse - a 2 ram crit strike for +2 damage is so much better than Puncture its insane.  Critical strike is a B tier trigger, so Puncture can't be better.  Solidly C.

For reference, on Triggers:

A tier - would stone or cheat for every time.  Almost the point of the action.  Would probably take a different action if stunned. (Trigger to attach upgrade on Hodgepodge Emissary's heal)

B tier - great trigger, has a strong impact when hit.  Would consider stoning for, would declare virtually every time, smile when I hit it (Slow trigger on an attack, Critical Strike)

C tier - Situational or low impact.  Could easily go an entire game without flipping it and not care.  'nice' (reposition triggers, 'target gains Distracted +1', Staggered ability on ranged attacks etc.)

D tier - Actively don't want to declare it much of the time or feels like a booby prize.  (Catalan Rifleman ability to get +2 on the next attack if you miss, Staggered on melee attacks)

Half a Critical Strike is about the definition of "nice" and 

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6 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

 

Now puncture takes a bit of math and I understand a lot of people are bad at it, but if you do the numbers for Taelor, a puncture trigger adds +0.6 damage.  Critical strike adds +1.  Stoning gets even worse - a 2 ram crit strike for +2 damage is so much better than Puncture its insane.  

I haven't checked the maths, but I can believe it's right. It does miss the strength of cheating, and I've never seen a simple way to calculate that. The knowledge if you hold a severe in hand that you can do 6 damage is better than+1 at times. 

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13 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

For reference, on Triggers:

A tier - would stone or cheat for every time.  Almost the point of the action.  Would probably take a different action if stunned. (Trigger to attach upgrade on Hodgepodge Emissary's heal)

B tier - great trigger, has a strong impact when hit.  Would consider stoning for, would declare virtually every time, smile when I hit it (Slow trigger on an attack, Critical Strike)

C tier - Situational or low impact.  Could easily go an entire game without flipping it and not care.  'nice' (reposition triggers, 'target gains Distracted +1', etc.)

D tier - Actively don't want to declare it much of the time or feels like a booby prize.  (Catalan Rifleman ability to get +2 on the next attack if you miss)

Half a Critical Strike is about the definition of "nice" and 

For me, A tier would include things that can end the game on the spot. There's plenty of amazing triggers that can win games. But if that's your classification of A tier, not even crit strike meets your criteria for A tier, so even triggers that meet your definition of B tier are amazing.

15 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Um, really?  Knock aside is one of those triggers I don't even want to declare half the time if I flip it straight.  Like if Taelor charges someone and flips Knock Aside first action do you declare the trigger?  Probably not.  If you do it second action?  Well you probably don't want to allow the model to disengage for free since she has a 2" range, so again maybe not.  A trigger I'm declaring only occasionally even when I naturally flip it is automatic D tier (triggers I often won't declare even when I naturally flip them).

If you set charges up properly, you can abuse knock aside. Even if you accidentally flip knock aside, you can move a model 4 inches while keeping them engaged:

image.png.c998bacdc349d746dd086086c9384c63.png

The 2" engagement range means pushing a model 4" is fine. You can still keep them engaged.

And that's not including all the positional scoring in the game. Bait and switch, corrupted leylines, claim jump, etc. Positioning can win games, and the ability to reposition a model can win games (plus opponents have to play around it - they can't put their leyline model in position until they're sure you won't knock aside on them.

Additionally you can use knock aside on your own models, which you may scoff at, but I've had plenty of times when I've used min 3 beaters to reposition my own models at the low cost of 3 damage.

With proper planning, you can use knock aside to disrupt your opponent's plan or just be a viable trigger when flipped off the top. So I think it is pretty incredible.

27 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

From the Heavens is again situational, half the models in the game don't even care.  When it works it's +2 damage, your opponent gains a soulstone.

This is a massive oversimplification. If Nekima gets to 6 health within 7 inches of taelor, she basically instantly dies.

Being able to just delete henchmen or masters is absolutely amazing.

28 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Now puncture takes a bit of math and I understand a lot of people are bad at it, but if you do the numbers for Taelor, a puncture trigger adds +0.6 damage.  Critical strike adds +1.  Stoning gets even worse - a 2 ram crit strike for +2 damage is so much better than Puncture its insane.  Critical strike is a B tier trigger, so Puncture can't be better.  Solidly C.

Again, you're not really considering what puncture allows you to do. With two high moderates and a severe, you can do 9 damage to soulstone users or hard to wound models (or in some cases, hard to wound soulstone users). If you can snag a focus at some point in the game of course.

Being able to just consistently get your damage through is absolutely amazing.

And of course there'll certainly be turns where you look at your hand and think "I can get 12 damage out of Taelor this turn on a soulstone user" which can be absolutely game-breaking.

It is also a good method of draining tokens from riders, for example. If you hit a rider with a straight flip 3/4/6 damage track, they are going to have to burn some tokens - and then you don't even have to blow your severes if they declare 4-5 tokens.

In competitive play, soulstone use is a major factor. Taelor has TWO ways to get around soulstones (reduction or minus flipping) depending on the situation. That's huge.

Hell, in ressers we get a model with like a 2/3/4 damage track where we are thankful for From The Heavens.

I totally get that Taelor may overall have problems, but if you're struggling to get value out of these triggers, it might be worth reassessing how you view them. I've seen games broken by all three of those triggers.

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11 minutes ago, Adran said:

The knowledge if you hold a severe in hand that you can do 6 damage is better than+1 at times.

Counterpoint Crit Strike means even a weak is 4, or 5 with a stone, it's more efficient to use that high card to hit, and deal more damage no matter what than use it to cheat damage. There may be fringe cases where the plus flip is better because you're going to resource dump, but most of the time the more efficient trigger will be better.

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1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Again, you're not really considering what puncture allows you to do. With two high moderates and a severe, you can do 9 damage to soulstone users or hard to wound models (or in some cases, hard to wound soulstone users). If you can snag a focus at some point in the game of course.

Being able to just consistently get your damage through is absolutely amazing.

I'm snipping a bunch of this because it is magical christmasland stuff.  Is there a situation where I might want to spend an action from a 9 soulstone model AND spend a card/soulstone AND take 3 damage on one of my models to reposition it 4"?  Sure.  Is it going to come up more than once in twenty games?  Uh, no.  Functionally that's a non-action.  Frankly it's almost insulting you spent words writing out an ability so marginal. 

Taelor's job is to kill models, and push aside not only does nothing to contribute to that, it is only useful if the model lives.  That right there would be a guaranteed C tier - the trigger does nothing if the model is doing its job, nor does it help the model when it's in its most common "failure state" for not doing its job (because the failure state for Taelor isn't that she's engaged - it's that she's DEAD.  She is damn squishy for 9 stones)  Then you add that most of the stuff it's doing you do if Taelor is first doing her job to kill stuff, and second engagement stops most of it anyway (like scoring Claim Jump or picking up a Symbol). 

To think competitively you can't be evaluating Magical Christmasland.  You have to look at it from the lens of facing an intelligent opponent in common scenarios that will occur in almost every game, and from that perspective the trigger is an obvious D tier.  On a model that wasn't focused on killing - a disruption piece for instance - it might rise to B tier, and if it was somehow at 12" range it might even rise to A, but Taelor is not those models. 

As for your hand, you draw 1-2 severes, 2-3 moderates, and 2-3 weaks in the average hand.  You're talking about blowing the better half of your hand on Taelor (and a pretty good hand to boot).  But I already have the Viks, which are 1-2 models I'll blow the better half of my hand on happily.  I don't hire models on the off chance I draw a hand with 3 severes and 3 high moderates - that's Magical Christmasland again, and if it happens I can probably use those cards with my normal models to gain advantage anyway. 

 

There's a fundamental flaw in how you're evaluating things - you're looking at what could happen in the best case scenario, not what is likely to happen in the normal scenario against a good opponent.  It reminds me of every game I played with someone who took Runic Binding in GG1.  It's like, you'd ask them "why did you take Runic Binding?" and they'd have some way they totally could have scored it.  And they could have!  But they didn't, because it's Runic Binding (I think I've seen like two points scored off that scheme, like, total)

 

P.S.  I agree Puncture is a great combo with From the Heavens to get 12 damage on a soulstone user!  One question... how?  That's not how triggers work.

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I generally take the view that you should be aware of all the uses for the text on a card. Since Malifaux gives you an unusually high amount of control over the flow of the game, you should be prepared to abuse every bit of text on the card.

All three of the triggers I listed are very useful and have contributed to me winning games on other models (well, technically the 'from the heavens' trigger isn't something I've used, but I've put a LOT of work into getting the same effect with neurotoxins).

As you say, Taelor's job is killing stuff and those two triggers maker her exceptionally good at it IMO. But to each their own!

Regarding movement... I initially didn't value knock aside as a trigger that much, but as I've gotten into more competitive games I've found even a 1 or 2 inch push can break games. So a 4 inch push is something special indeed IMO.

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