New and totally confused - A thread of questions (eventually)

[Rory]

So I'm new to the game, reading the PDF and got to combat....and got 100% lost. I've played many table top miniature games over the years but now I'm stumped.

1:  Page 20: Every turn has a new initiative flip? So it is conceivable in the game the same person could actually win the flip every single time to be 'player 1'?
 
2: In the explanation of combat page 22: It mentions the Stat part of the attack action, but doesn't mention the icon listed for the card in the paragraph starting "Any Action...". I assume it means that the section means you take 5 + card total but the card MUST be a ram card or the card value is not added at all? And it also includes the extra card icon with that, so I assume you flip 2 cards?
      2a: Is the TN listed a number BOTH the attacker *AND* the target have to meet, or is it the target only? And again does it ONLY count when you flip cards with the icon?
      2b: It mentions on the 'block' showing the attack example, that you discard a card, and damage is 2/3/4 damage. Is the damage level determined by the discarded card? By the card used for the attack action + stat? By the resist?
      2c: It use the term "push" in the Disengage example. I assume push/walk are interchangeable for that? Or does it mean the disengaging model pushes the attacker back from them?

That's all for now, but I'm certain I'll have a lot more questions. I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around it, and it's so different!
 

[touchdown]

8 minutes ago, Rory said:

1: The issue with a "STAT" having a card suit remains. [EDIT: re-reading replies, if I read Adrans response properly, they are indeed saying you ADD the Ram into your effect, so if you pass you get to use the Ram effect]

• Look at the abilities for Mortimer (looked up in app) His attack is Shovel - under STAT: 6Crows.
• Another character would be Kang (again see in app) - also with a Shovel -STAT: 6Rams. The only thing I can take this to mean is you flip, add 6 to the total, and you automatically get the suit listed with the stat, and therefore the special power/ability listed? As both Mortimer and Kang have a special listed under the attack for either Crows or Rams?

You basically have it. You add the stat value and the suit to your duel total. So if you do Kang's shovel and you flip an 8 of Masks. You would have a total of 14 + Mask + Ram. This would let you pick either trigger. If you flipped a 9 of Rams then you'd have 2 Rams which lets you do +2 damage from Critical Strike instead of +1. There are other various reasons for wanting 2 suits. Sometimes the action has a suit in the TN. So you need that suit to do the action and then will have a trigger with a different suit. You only ever get to do one of your triggers.

11 minutes ago, Rory said:

2: I have a 2 part LOS question.

• First question: From how the rules phrase it, poorly, is that you must draw TWO lines of site to any target? One from either side of your base to either side of their base? But then in some of the examples shown, it has 3 LOS lines drawn. One from each side AND one down the center. So how's this work? If I can draw a line to the left side of the model I'm targeting *AND* the middle, even if I can't draw one to the right side, do i have normal LOS? Cos it seems to me that the intent is only from the SIDES of active model, to the SIDES of target model, and then examples should have never shown a center arrow.
• Second question builds off this: Cover/ concealed. They have 2 different effects. If I understand right, Cover is ONLY in relation to the SHADOW effect of a piece of terrain, while being "concealed" would be restricted to, say size 2 model standing behind a size 1 crate? In which case, it said in the rules earlier if that if a Size 2 targets a Size 2 who is behind a size 1 piece of terrain, LOS is normal. So what the hell is concealed?

For LOS you only ever need one sight line. Technically there are an infinite number of sight lines between the two models but they show 3 in the rule book to as a general guide. Imagine 2 models with a gap between them and then 2 models that can see each other through the gap. The sides of their bases will be blocked but you'll have a sight line roughly in the center of the bases.

Cover and concealment are caused by properties of the terrain. If you have blocking terrain (say a wall), it casts a shadow and models in the shadow have cover if any sight lines pass through the terrain. A model has concealment if any sight lines pass through concealing terrain (imagine a foggy swamp, or a dense forest where it's hard to see).

In your example the Sz 2 model behind a Ht 1 crate would have cover if LoS goes through the crate. Picture the defending model ducking behind the crate when it hears gunfire.

20 minutes ago, Rory said:

3: So... what exactly is the purpose of using the pass tokens when not bolstering your initiative flip? The only thing I could maybe guess is holding off on activating your model(s) until your opponent has been forced to activate all theirs? Does this mean if, say I have 3 tokens AND I win initiative, I could "pass" my first activation, making them go (they chose not to spend one), then use an activation on one of my models, then say skip 2 more rounds and end the current over all "round" with 2 activation in a row because they used up all their models? I guess what I'm saying is - where is, and what is, the advantage of discarding pass tokens to skip an activation.

For most crews this is exactly it. A lot of times having the last model to go in the turn is very important. Some specific crews (Qi and Gong comes to mind), get an extra bonus for pass tokens.

[Adran]

3 hours ago, Rory said:

1: The issue with a "STAT" having a card suit remains. [EDIT: re-reading replies, if I read Adrans response properly, they are indeed saying you ADD the Ram into your effect, so if you pass you get to use the Ram effect]

2: I have a 2 part LOS question.

3: So... what exactly is the purpose of using the pass tokens when not bolstering your initiative flip? 
 

1 Yes - if Kang attacks he adds 6 to the card he flips to reach his total. As you see he has 2 different triggers, he is allowed to only declare one, but if he flips a 4  his total would be 10  and he could choose which trigger to declare.

Also note the critical strike trigger does +1 damage for each in the total, so if he happened to flip a ram and choose that trigger his attacks would do +2 damage because he would have 1 ram from his stat and 1 from his card.

2 there are infinite lines between the two models, and if any one of them is clear you have line of sight. But likewise if anyone of them passes through  concealing terrain you would suffer concealment. Normally you can tell with just the 2 outside lines drawn, but there are times when they don't tell you the whole story (Its obvious whilst playing when that it the  case)

3 There are times when going last is really good. you get to react to the table state and know that the opponent can't react to what you do. This can allow you to stop them scoring, or make sure you can score (or sometimes both). in the last edition which didn't have pass tokens you had some lists built to have 5 or 6 more models than the other side, so they got to do all their important activations together at the end of the turn and it was really hard to score against them because what ever you were doing to score, they could just choose to try and stop once you can't do anything (for example, one strategy needed you to have the most models in 2 table quarters. If you get 3 or 4 moves after the opponent is finished, it is easy to walk people into the right quarters for you to score and your opponent to not)

There are also times when being able to move two models in a row are really good, and if you have a larger crew and you opponent doesn't use pass markers, then you will be able to activate those two in a row without your opponent being able to react. Lots of people really like going first, but I find its not always that important, your model does the same on full health as on 1 health, so unless they kill you you still get to activate it. (of course they are probably hoping to kill you to stop you from activating).

 

 

I hope that helps clear it up. Keep coming here with questions and we'll keep trying to explain them.

Good luck with the games

[touchdown]

1) yes, although it's very unlikely for a number of reasons

2) if the stat has a suit, you add that to the flip. In the example you have your card value plus 5 plus a Ram. So unless you flip the black joker, you would have 2 suits (possibly 2 Rams). This is important for triggers like Critical Strike that add 1 damage per Ram. Yes the card plus sign means you flip 2 cards and pick the one you like best. Sometimes you will flip 2 cards but be forced to take the lowest value, represented by a minus card. You can end up flipping up to 4 cards.

2a) only the model taking the action has to reach the TN. Not sure how to answer the 2nd part of this.

2b) the discard a card in italics is a cost you have to pay for the action to succeed. Damage is ruled by a 2nd flip that's explained in the rules.

2c) Movement is kind of complicated in Malifaux. A walk is an action that lets you move. There are times when you are not allowed to declare a walk like being engaged. A push is not an action, but just a movement that happens. It has to be in a straight line and if a card says you may do it, then you can. Engagement doesn't stop it.

[Adran]

Welcome.

Q1 yes, its possible that the same person will be player 1 each turn. 

Q2im not by my rule book so I'm not sure what the example is.  Your duel total is your stats + your card. This will give you a numerical value and some number of suits ( one from the card, and possibly1 from the stat). The suits are used to declare triggers and/ or reach target numbers. 

 

A target number needs to be reached by the model taking the action or the action fails. Not by the target. 

If you have a variable value ( such as damage) listed 2/3/4 ( weak/ moderate/severe) then you turn the top card and see what its value is. 1-5 is weak, 6-10 is moderate and 11-13 is severe. 

Push and walk and move are not interchangeable. A push is a special type of movement that is only in a straight horizontal lines. A walk action allows you to move your wk value, but some things may prevent walk actions ( for example you can not use a walk action to leave an enemy models engagement range). 

Keep asking, and we'll keep answering.

[Rory]

On 7/24/2020 at 4:01 PM, Adran said:

A target number needs to be reached by the model taking the action or the action fails. Not by the target. 

 

 

Even if it shows for the resist?

I guess the whole combat just confuses me. I wish the rule book and given an example. Any recommendations of short videos showing a 'how to play' that aren't battle reports?

[santaclaws01]

55 minutes ago, Rory said:

Even if it shows for the resist?

Page 11.

[Rory]

OOOOH!!! thank you, Santaclaws!

On 7/24/2020 at 4:01 PM, Adran said:

A target number needs to be reached by the model taking the action or the action fails. Not by the target. 

 

 

Even if it shows for the resist?

I guess the whole combat just confuses me. I wish the rule book and given an example. Any recommendations of short videos showing a 'how to play' that aren't battle reports?

[Adran]

2 hours ago, Rory said:

OOOOH!!! thank you, Santaclaws!

Even if it shows for the resist?

I guess the whole combat just confuses me. I wish the rule book and given an example. Any recommendations of short videos showing a 'how to play' that aren't battle reports?

I've looked at the rulebook and read that example. The confusion is that Pandora has an ability called terrifying that means you need to pass a simple duel to attack her.

 There are 2 types of duels. Simple duels where you are just trying to beat a target number, and opposed duels where both sides flip a card. The opposed duel can also have a target number, but most don't. I don't think any action has a number in the resist section, the TN section is just after the resist section of an action. 

Typically combat is quite simple, action stat + card gives the attacker a number, resist stat + card gives the defender a number, and the highest number wins. If the attacker has a higher number ( or a tie) then you do what the the action says. If there is a variable flip  in the action, then the difference between the totals gives an accuracy modifier which tells you how many cards to flip and if you can pick which one or you have to use the lowest number. 

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Rory said:

OOOOH!!! thank you, Santaclaws!

Even if it shows for the resist?

I guess the whole combat just confuses me. I wish the rule book and given an example.

There is an example on page 11, although it's a bit complicated and focuses on the duels (it's on page 11 of the PDF, the second page of the Duels rules next to the picture of the guy in the duster holding a shotgun):

• Cornelius Basse declares an attack against Pandora
  • Because Pandora has Terrifying, paragraphs two through five of the example are the simple Wp duel caused by Terrifying.
  • The last six paragraphs step through the opposed duel for the attack (6 vs. Df Opposed duel, no TN)

To cover the stuff after the part covered by the example, the next step would be to resolve the effects of the action.  So you resolve "Target suffers 3/4/5 damage" and need the following rules:

• That 'target suffers x/y/z damage' is a damage flip (PDF page 24).
  • Basse's margin of success for the attack was 1, so the Accuracy Modifier (page 24 of the PDF) is going to be .  
  • So Basse's player performs the flip by turning over two cards (one by default and a second one for the negative fate modifier) and chooses the lower value due to the negative fate modifier.
  • Almost all of the Malifaux specific card decks have Weak/Moderate/Severe marked on them in some manner.  Some do it as one, two or three stars, other really old fashioned decks have Weak, Moderate or Severe written on the card.  If you don't have a marked card, the chart's on page 8 of the rules PDF.)
• All of the possible outcomes of that damage flip have on them, so you need to consult the Blasts rules on page 30 of the PDF.

To put that in concrete terms....

Quote

Next, Basse resolves the effects of the action.  The action says 'Target suffers 3/4/5damage' so a damage flip needs to be resolved.  Because Basse succeeded by 1 point in the opposed duel, he applies a to the flip as the accuracy modifier.  

Before Basse performs the flip, because Pandora can use soulstones, his player pauses to allow Pandora the choice of using a soul stone to try to block the damage (imposing her own to the damage flip).  Pandora's player declines.  (Damage Timing, step 1)

For the damage flip, a 10 and 11are revealed, and because the accuracy modifier was negative, the lowest numeric value card is chosen (the 10).  The 10 is a Moderate result (PDF page 8, if it's not marked on the card).  (Damage Timing, step 2)

The result has one icon, so one 50mm Blast marker gets dropped* into base contact with Pandora.  Pandora will be suffering 4 damage, and anyone else touched by the blast marker will suffer 3 damage.  A Sorrow is standing next to Pandora and is covered by the blast marker, so it suffers 3 damage (eventually).  

Now Pandora has a second chance to use a soul stone to reduce damage (Damage Timing, step 3).  Pandora declines, and doesn't have Armor or anything so she takes the 4 damage and reduces her wounds accordingly.  She hasn't been wounded yet, so she goes from 12 health to 8.

Now that the damage against Pandora has been resolved, the remaining damage caused by the Blast gets resolved.  The 3 damage against the Woe goes:

* skip step 1 and 2 because it's not a variable flip at that point

* In Step 3, the Sorrow has Incorporeal, so the 3 damage is reduced by 1 to 2.

* In Step 4, the Sorrow takes the 2 damage.  It wasn't wounded before, so it goes from 5 health to 3.

* In Step 6, the Sorrow isn't dead yet.

Notes:

Almost all of the time, a Blast is going to be the result of a damage flip.  So even though the damage in a Blast is simultaneous, you're already in the process of resolving Damage Timing against the target when the Blast rules become relevant.  So in practice the result is that the damage against the target gets resolved, then everyone else touched by a the blast(s) gets resolved, as in the example above.

I can't think of any effects in the current edition that just drop without being part of a damage flip (either written in an x/y/z damage flip or in a 'when resolving' trigger.)

=================

I haven't watched all of this video to vet it's contents, but it at least shows two different fate decks and talks about the dynamics of cheating fate against a Lure attack at the end:  

(The first fate deck shown in that video is a fate deck that dates back to 1st edition.  The retro fate deck is from 2nd edition.  The one, two or three stars on the cards is the typical style, although in the newest decks those stars are next to the number on the card.)

 

[Rory]

I'll check out the video and read these again when I'm off work.

The initial question was in regards to a stat block shown on page 22

My confusion about resist/TN comes from that one.

The book says "Actions that involve duels have a Resist, a TN, or both. If the Action causes an opposed duel, it will list the stat the opponent uses to resist the duel here (usually Df or Wp).". Does that mean say *I* am the attacker - I have to hit the TN of 13+ but then for the resist part, it's simply a matter of the target player flipping against me and beating what I get in total?

So if I understand from what people have said here, and re-reading (and re-reading) the text: I attack. I have to succeed with at least 13+ on my attack *AND* I need the card to show a Ram. On the plus side - I add 5 to whatever I flip and because of the + icon, I get to flip 2 cards.

Say I get 14 total but no ram, it is still a success?

Then, my total  of 14 is opposed by the target. They need to beat 14 with any suit using a modifier from WP? and if they do, my attack fails?
 

[Adran]

Using the eldrich blast attack. You flip 2 cards because it has .You add 5 to the card you choose and need to reach 13 as well as higher number than the targets df + a card. 

So you need at least an 8 to get this attack off. 

If you get an 8 and a 10then you would pick the 8 and end with a final duel total of 13 which is enough to pass the tn. If your opponent has a value of 13 or less then you hit, and if it's 14 or more you miss

[solkan]

21 minutes ago, Rory said:

The book says "Actions that involve duels have a Resist, a TN, or both. If the Action causes an opposed duel, it will list the stat the opponent uses to resist the duel here (usually Df or Wp).". Does that mean say *I* am the attacker - I have to hit the TN of 13+ but then for the resist part, it's simply a matter of the target player flipping against me and beating what I get in total?

So if I understand from what people have said here, and re-reading (and re-reading) the text: I attack. I have to succeed with at least 13+ on my attack *AND* I need the card to show a Ram. On the plus side - I add 5 to whatever I flip and because of the + icon, I get to flip 2 cards.

Say I get 14 total but no ram, it is still a success?

It’s easiest to think of it as two different requirements.  Usually there’s one or the other, but if both are present you need to fulfill both requirements.

For the Rst requirement, the only thing that matters is the numeric duel totals.  The attacker and the defender win vs. each other purely on numbers.

For the TN requirement, you need both the numeric value and the listed suit (or suits) shown.  

You posted a picture of Eldritch Blast with a TN of 13 Tomes.  If you take the Eldritch Blast Action, you need a tome in the final duel total to succeed.  Usually that tome has to come from the card you choose in the duel, but it can come from soul stone use or some other rarer abilities.

If you end with a 14 but no tome when taking Eldritch Blast you fail because you didn’t match the TN’s suit.

 

[Rory]

9 minutes ago, Adran said:

Useing the eldrich blast attack. You flip 2 cards because it has you add 5 🔺

And I'm looking with that to get a 13+, correct?  Where does the icon fit in (the rams head in the image)?

Also, I appreciate you guys explaining this so much to me

[Rory]

5 minutes ago, solkan said:

For the Rst requirement, the only thing that matters is the numeric duel totals.  The attacker and the defender win vs. each other purely on numbers.

************OK!! Now I understand resist...thank you!*****************

For the TN requirement, you need both the numeric value and the listed suit (or suits) shown.  

You posted a picture of Eldritch Blast with a TN of 13 Tomes.  If you take the Eldritch Blast Action, you need a tome in the final duel total to succeed.  Usually that tome has to come from the card you choose in the duel, but it can come from soul stone use or some other rarer abilities.

If you end with a 14 but no tome when taking Eldritch Blast you fail because you didn’t match the TN’s suit.

**********ok. My other confusion lingers under the STAT part. where it shows a rams head. How does/where does that figure in?***********

 

 

[Adran]

5 minutes ago, Rory said:

And I'm looking with that to get a 13+, correct?  Where does the icon fit in (the rams head in the image)?

Also, I appreciate you guys explaining this so much to me

Sorry, was typing on phone and hit wrong smiley and post in error. Check my edit

[Rory]

4 minutes ago, Adran said:

 Check my edit

OOOOH so you add everything in the STAT box to your 'flip'.

NOW I get it. I thought I had to have the ram in a flip as well.

OMG you guys are such a great help. I was used to other game forums where you'd get crap for asking such newbie questions.

[Adran]

I'm always happy to give answers to even the most basic questions, as there is quite an international following, so plenty of people aren't reading in their native language. And sometimes the basics are confusing if you make 1 error in understanding that nothing makes sense. Ultimately every new player the game gets is one more potential opponent for me, and a greater chance the game carries on, so it's in everyone's best interest to help people learn.

[solkan]

50 minutes ago, Rory said:

**********ok. My other confusion lingers under the STAT part. where it shows a rams head. How does/where does that figure in?***********

That gets used in two places:

- Giving the model a suit so that if it has the matching trigger that's always an option for the model.  Or there are some triggers like Critical Strike which say "When resolving, the target suffers +1 damage for each [suit] in this Actrion's final duel total (to a maximum of +2)."

- It's really rare, but there are some effects that remove suits from actions.  That can turn a gimme situation into a difficult to use action.  But this was more common in the previous edition and not really used much now.

For what it's worth, the Eldritch Blast action is a completely made up example to show where all of the options go.  No model currently has an action of that name, and I don't think you'd ever see a suit in a stat like that that wasn't for one of those two situations.

[diki]

15 hours ago, Rory said:

 

My confusion about resist/TN comes from that one.

I'd never thought about it much before but it does seem pretty bad design to put the TN after the RST stat.
It does make it look like the resist would need to hit that TN. RG - Stat - TN - Rst seems more logical?

[muraki]

1 hour ago, diki said:

I'd never thought about it much before but it does seem pretty bad design to put the TN after the RST stat.
It does make it look like the resist would need to hit that TN. RG - Stat - TN - Rst seems more logical?

Not really.  The stats make sense the way they as it follows the flow of the conflict.  Aka first you define range, then the attack info, then the defense info, and finally any targets that would prevent the attack from going through.

[Rory]

Resurrecting this thread (ha...)

So reading through the rules again after life became hecking busy - I have a few more rules questions

1: The issue with a "STAT" having a card suit remains. [EDIT: re-reading replies, if I read Adrans response properly, they are indeed saying you ADD the Ram into your effect, so if you pass you get to use the Ram effect]

• Look at the abilities for Mortimer (looked up in app) His attack is Shovel - under STAT: 6Crows.
• Another character would be Kang (again see in app) - also with a Shovel -STAT: 6Rams. The only thing I can take this to mean is you flip, add 6 to the total, and you automatically get the suit listed with the stat, and therefore the special power/ability listed? As both Mortimer and Kang have a special listed under the attack for either Crows or Rams?

2: I have a 2 part LOS question.

• First question: From how the rules phrase it, poorly, is that you must draw TWO lines of site to any target? One from either side of your base to either side of their base? But then in some of the examples shown, it has 3 LOS lines drawn. One from each side AND one down the center. So how's this work? If I can draw a line to the left side of the model I'm targeting *AND* the middle, even if I can't draw one to the right side, do i have normal LOS? Cos it seems to me that the intent is only from the SIDES of active model, to the SIDES of target model, and then examples should have never shown a center arrow.
• Second question [found answers] 

3: So... what exactly is the purpose of using the pass tokens when not bolstering your initiative flip? The only thing I could maybe guess is holding off on activating your model(s) until your opponent has been forced to activate all theirs? Does this mean if, say I have 3 tokens AND I win initiative, I could "pass" my first activation, making them go (they chose not to spend one), then use an activation on one of my models, then say skip 2 more rounds and end the current over all "round" with 2 activation in a row because they used up all their models? I guess what I'm saying is - where is, and what is, the advantage of discarding pass tokens to skip an activation.

Thanks all for now. I look forward to hearing responses, and I hope this de-necros this thread and bumps it up top in the forum. Building models, and hoping to start playing in a week or two with the wife, models fully painted or in mid paint as we play games (alternating with Gloomhaven).

[Rory]

Thanks all. Glad I'm finally wrapping my head around this system! 

[touchdown]

I've found a lot of the rules make more sense when you get models on the table and play. It's hard to absorb them by just reading