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What would you Errata? (Ten Thunders)


korgal

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I think this kind of thread is a little useless . It seems like there is a "beta mentality" still on . 

In the second edition the errata had like 10 changes per faction (in 4 years) . In the other subforums there are requests for reworking on entire keywords. This is not how it works. 

This is going to degenerate like the others ...

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I'll admit I haven't played (that much of) Shenlong or Lynch, but of the other masters I find very little in their keywords that really makes me feel like anything is broken.

I had a hard time understanding how to make McCabe work--and I'm told that I play him in a fashion unlike most other McCabes--but that's more of the opposite XD

I think there are definitely powerful models, but nothing immediately leaps to mind as being broken.

 

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3 hours ago, SerZaka said:

I think this kind of thread is a little useless . It seems like there is a "beta mentality" still on .

I think most people involved in this kind of threads simply enjoy the brainstorm. We don't know what kind of errata we are going to receive (hard errata with changes to the way actions work/new actions added or soft errata with changes to numbers only), but there is no harm in discussing things. Moreover, by discussing weaknesses of particualr keywords you can help developers fix them not only through errata, but also through designing new models, which will eventually happen.

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7 hours ago, korgal said:

hello, I haven't seen the subject here so I'm creating it. For you, what are the profiles to errated?
I think of Shenlong who is very very strong !

I think that Ten Thunders are the greatest failure of the Keyword system. Some combination of Samurai, Lone Swordsman, Fuhatsu, Minako and Tanuki, with occasional Emissary makes a cornerstone of every Shenlong/Misaki/Asami/Youko list I have battled so far. And it's not one player's preference, as there are three TT players around. So I would like to see that problem addressed somehow, but I doubt anything will be done with that, as that's not a game-breaking thing but rather an example of design failure.

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A friend who knows Malifaux well told me about versatile profiles (all factions but even more among the Ten Thunders). in his opinion, that poses problem and can be errated. What do you think ?

Do you have opinions on versatile profiles ?
Do you think there are some who are too strong ?

Are the keyword profiles "poorly done" ?
Maybe the keyword powers for Thunders aren't interesting ?

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Qi & Gong is the MOST interesting keyword power set, it's very well thought out and balanced with weaker models.  it is a hard nut to crack, and once the whole model range comes out I look forward to cracking it for that tasty meat inside!

Ancestor, Foundry, & Honeypot are all good inner synergy keywords.

Oni... I love them to death... but their keyword ability is kind of meh, but they all kill and scheme well.

I haven't really seen Wastral have synergy, but all their models are tight... which might be what their synergy is.

Last Blossom & Monk have the worst keyword synergy for they all rely on their masters only.  Ever try a Henchman lead crew with them?  All their synergy is out the window.

And hey, this is just my opinion...

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Actually nothing would change, rather that some skills are clarified (such as Chiaki's, which create controversy every X days).  The versatile of the Thunders only 3 are useful and it is not that they are very durable (2 have armor but it is not that it serves them much).  

Changes could be Dreamer, Zoraida, Stiched, versatile Arcanists and Outcast, the damage of the Victorias but it is debatable.

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18 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

Last Blossom & Monk have the worst keyword synergy for they all rely on their masters only.  Ever try a Henchman lead crew with them?  All their synergy is out the window.

Almost every model in the Last Blossom keyword interact with Shadow Markers in some ways and Misaki is the only reliable (and not AP related) source of them . The only exception are probably the Wouko , it would be cool if they see the Shadow Markers as Scheme Markers. 

I use Misaki in like 90% of my games and I never relied on her for everything. Actually I think I score one or two points with her (depends a lot if Plant is the Strategy or not). The rest is all about Ototo and the two Torakage , they run everywhere scheming and creating shadows everywhere.

I tried sometimes to don't use them but without extra markers generation it become to easy for the opponent to stop her or you must simply avoid an aggressive marker placing (a real waste).

I don't quite get the Henchman thing. If you try an Oni crew without Asami there is no Interaction at all between models .

 

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36 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

Qi & Gong is the MOST interesting keyword power set, it's very well thought out and balanced with weaker models.  it is a hard nut to crack, and once the whole model range comes out I look forward to cracking it for that tasty meat inside!

She is the great mystery . Probably because no one wants to actual use her until the Kabuki are out . A Master that ,reading the card, you want in the middle of the enemy crew but at the same time you really don't want her there lol

I proxied her just a couple of times. Her crew can't obviously take a punch to the face , but that's fine . You have Foundry and Ancestors for that. They are very slow in keyword , no actual pushes except the Lures . You can use the Geisha as taxi but I think is the wrong way to use them , far better to lure enemy out of position . The combo Distracted spam of Youko and Kunoichi is fun. 

I don't like her just because of her mobility , that is everything in this edition (at least in this GG ) . But actually there are some Versatile for that if you accept to go out-of-theme (thing that I hate personally). But hey, Yasunori was a performer once , right?

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If possibile I would run statistics.

The always hired pieces in competitive play, I would review carefully. The never hired ones, also. Same goes for upgrade, strategies and most importantly I would look at entire keywords/masters. I would absolutely avoid getting carried away by feeling, community complaints and stuff. basing analysis on facts and numbers. 

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On 2/16/2020 at 11:52 AM, korgal said:

Do you have opinions on versatile profiles ?
Do you think there are some who are too strong ?

Are the keyword profiles "poorly done" ?
Maybe the keyword powers for Thunders aren't interesting ?

I think the problem is twofold. First and foremost, there is a flaw in a way internal keyword synergies in several TT crews are designed. The logic of keyword synergy is that a model can be a suboptimal choice in vacuum, but optimal if taken with other in-keyword pieces. Many TT keyword synergies are simply not so rewarding and it's enough to take 10-15 ss of in-keyword models. The second problem is what TT versatiles are. In two factions I play – Ressurectionists and Outcasts – versatile models are mostly support pieces, niche picks or Midnight Stalker :P In TT probably too many versatiles are very effective beaters who do not require much support to work (Samurai, Lone Swordsman, Fuhatsu, Yasunori; the last one is TT equivalent of Riders, so that's understandable). So if you don't need more than 15ss of in-keyword models for your master to work, why would you bother with your not-so-good keyword models if you can hire strong versatiles?

Just to make it clear: I am not for nerfing TT versatiles (except maybe Minako, but this needs to be supported by TT players in the first place), as that may harm the factions performance and limit the number of viable masters. I am for making stronger synergies within keyword. That, however, is a bit difficult after the game has been officialy released.

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On 2/16/2020 at 9:49 AM, SerZaka said:

She is the great mystery . Probably because no one wants to actual use her until the Kabuki are out . A Master that ,reading the card, you want in the middle of the enemy crew but at the same time you really don't want her there lol

I proxied her just a couple of times. Her crew can't obviously take a punch to the face , but that's fine . You have Foundry and Ancestors for that. They are very slow in keyword , no actual pushes except the Lures . You can use the Geisha as taxi but I think is the wrong way to use them , far better to lure enemy out of position . The combo Distracted spam of Youko and Kunoichi is fun. 

I don't like her just because of her mobility , that is everything in this edition (at least in this GG ) . But actually there are some Versatile for that if you accept to go out-of-theme (thing that I hate personally). But hey, Yasunori was a performer once , right?

Though I am a Lucas Main, as it were, I REALLY like Youkou. Having put in about 15 games with her she's actually far more durable then she lets on. She doesn't want to be in the middle of the crew, she wants to be on one flank. I like her unique playstyle of control and her crews albeit there's a few things you need to really learn when you're playing her.

1) Distracted is not the end-all-be-all for her AP. She should be primarily in a position to Blackmail and use Distracted as an AP dump if nessecary.

2) Burning Leverage on defense is often a waste. It's like Focusing to defend. Flipping two cards is not going to increase your flip by anymore than like 2 on average. I usually use them to force my opponent to chain activate and then have my folks run in when the coast is clear.

3) ALWAYS. GO. FOR. WE. OWN. YOU. Stone. Cheat. I don't care. You go for it every time. The more your opponent burns their hand the more that you're free to ruin the day.

I've proxied Kabuki warriors twice now. They're integral to her crew. While the Geisha distraction aura is nice, they can't take a hit and having a Kabuki lock up a target is the most ideal option you have. Granted you can't really charge with models that you have in that aura, but depending on what you have charging into them, your We Own You shenanigans can be even more absurd.

On 2/14/2020 at 1:53 AM, Drowsheep said:

I had a hard time understanding how to make McCabe work--and I'm told that I play him in a fashion unlike most other McCabes--but that's more of the opposite XD

Might I suggest a fancy forum thread on THIS VERY FORUM which is written by me about Lucas McCabe?

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2 hours ago, Wakefield said:

3) ALWAYS. GO. FOR. WE. OWN. YOU. Stone. Cheat. I don't care. You go for it every time. The more your opponent burns their hand the more that you're free to ruin the day.

You are being unclear and vague... what are you trying to get across?

Yeah, seriously, Lure some marks into range so Youko can just Blackmail + :mask by any means at least once every turn!

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54 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

You are being unclear and vague... what are you trying to get across?

Yeah, seriously, Lure some marks into range so Youko can just Blackmail + :mask by any means at least once every turn!

If you're not adding the Mask, they're not stressing about it. They're just going to give you the pass tokens. If you add the mask, you're getting at least two cards out of their hand in exchange for two in your hand. No cards from their hand, two pass tokens AND an action, or a mix of the above. I used to think she was better at Riddles and just staying on the outskirts of battle, walking forwards to get stuff later on, but no, it's definitely keep her just behind your front line and preferably near a Kabuki. I think if anything Bunraku should exchange Risky Maneuver for Reckless to gain fast over a 3 inch push and focus. It'd make them far more reliable as scheme runners and threats. That'd be what I would want to see in Errata.

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12 hours ago, Wakefield said:

Might I suggest a fancy forum thread on THIS VERY FORUM which is written by me about Lucas McCabe?

Eh, I've got the hang of him now ;)  I've won the last three or four games I've played with him...

 

19 hours ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

I think the problem is twofold. First and foremost, there is a flaw in a way internal keyword synergies in several TT crews are designed. The logic of keyword synergy is that a model can be a suboptimal choice in vacuum, but optimal if taken with other in-keyword pieces. Many TT keyword synergies are simply not so rewarding and it's enough to take 10-15 ss of in-keyword models. The second problem is what TT versatiles are. In two factions I play – Ressurectionists and Outcasts – versatile models are mostly support pieces, niche picks or Midnight Stalker :P In TT probably too many versatiles are very effective beaters who do not require much support to work (Samurai, Lone Swordsman, Fuhatsu, Yasunori; the last one is TT equivalent of Riders, so that's understandable). So if you don't need more than 15ss of in-keyword models for your master to work, why would you bother with your not-so-good keyword models if you can hire strong versatiles?

Just to make it clear: I am not for nerfing TT versatiles (except maybe Minako, but this needs to be supported by TT players in the first place), as that may harm the factions performance and limit the number of viable masters. I am for making stronger synergies within keyword. That, however, is a bit difficult after the game has been officialy released.

To be honest; I strongly disagree.  (Well, I agree that there are some great versatiles).

But, I barely, if ever, run versatiles in any crew--I love thematic crews, and I do very well with them.  Asami, Lynch, Youko, Yan Lo, and Mei are all masters that are have cohesive thematic crews that seem to work well for me.

As I said, I've barely played Shenlong in the new edition, but his crew--like Misaki's--does seem to be somewhat reliant on him (also I did play a game with Minako as my master, using Misaki's crew--I won pretty handily despite the lack of synergy).  I can't argue over Shenlong as I have little experience with him.  As for Misaki though, I think her crews main theme (and synergy) is it's ability to work however it wants without needing other models; I mean, Misaki is one of the most mobile masters in the game, being able to teleport to wherever she needs to be--her crew, being almost all self-sufficient models that can go off and do their thing don't necessarily need her or any synergy to get the job done.  Meanwhile, if things get tough, throw down a shadow marker and Misaki can come help.  I'd argue the synergy of Misaki is in her lack of implicit synergy.

As for McCabe--I play him in a very similar way; his crew's synergy isn't necessarily built into abilities and actions, but is more implied by small things the various models are designed to do.

 

I was a big champion of this back in 2e, and I stand by it in 3e, TT has always been the outlyer in factions--they work slightly differently; they're designed to get the job done, even if they aren't the fashiest--they're definitely the most reliable.

 

To kind of invert your thesis statement; I think the reason the TT have so many beaters in their versatiles is because they have such good support built into the thematic crews.  

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2 hours ago, Drowsheep said:

To be honest; I strongly disagree.  (Well, I agree that there are some great versatiles).

But, I barely, if ever, run versatiles in any crew--I love thematic crews, and I do very well with them.  Asami, Lynch, Youko, Yan Lo, and Mei are all masters that are have cohesive thematic crews that seem to work well for me.

Just to be clear: as I said a post earlier, the problem with ubiquitous versatiles in my local TT meta is not pertinent to every TT master, but to four: Shenlong, Misaki, Asami and Youko. Not sure about McCabe, as I played against him before Hucksters were released, so options were naturally limited for my opponent.

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12 hours ago, Wakefield said:

I think if anything Bunraku should exchange Risky Maneuver for Reckless to gain fast over a 3 inch push and focus. It'd make them far more reliable as scheme runners and threats

Risky is already a pretty good ability to scheme actually. Every action that let you to scheme-move-scheme is actually very good. 

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Other than the obvious nerfs that are probably needed for Shenlong/Kitty Dumont/Minako Rei, here is what I would want in an Errata:

The Lone Swordsman's Last Breath action could probably use "This Action cannot target the same model more than once per Activation." as a restriction, as he is very good even without  :+flip:+flipto attack and damage, and generating 2 stones on kill (that 8 irreducible damage is a real doozy if you screw it up though).

I think Youko needs a lot of help personally, but I know quite a few people feel that she's fine as she is. I think most of her models are okay (Kabuki Warriors) to excellent (Hinamatsu, Kunoichi) but they are let down by Youko herself. I admit, until she's got the rest of her models and is played in big tournaments I can't really draw any useful conclusions beyond my personal experience with her. That withstanding, if she is weak then here is where I think she needs a buff:

  1. Youko's survivability. She is absolutely shredded by focus and most of her actions/auras are relatively low range. Giving her back disguised would go a long way to keeping her alive an extra turn or so to do her aura shenanigans while leaving her with a weakness to ranged.
  2. Blackmail is pretty damn weak against a smart player who is familiar with her (outside of niche :ToS-Fast:actions, which I think are their own problem). It is effectively a stat 6, range 6", non-inbuilt Obey that has the upside of getting two pass tokens and both the downside of being unable to target friendlies, and the downside that your opponent can block it by discarding two cards (rarely will this be the better choice but, because it is up to them, a good opponent will usually use this option to their advantage, not yours). Viewing it in this light I don't think it would be unreasonable to get the :maskinbuilt and/or to increase the range to 12".

Lust desperately needs a more consistent sin mechanic. If it was draw or discard then it would be significantly closer to the other Crossroads' models in terms of consistency. Card draw on a model is relatively rare and definitely not something you would want to be giving your opponent more of. Also, how does Lust not have a Lure!?

Ruffians need to have a role in McCabe's crew. Make them enable the rest of the crew somehow (some upgrade juggling synergy maybe) or make them annoying to the enemy in some way and make them tanky enough to take a hit. Alternatively, drop their cost to 4SS and they might begin to compete with Hucksters.

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12 minutes ago, Jinn said:

Lust desperately needs a more consistent sin mechanic. If it was draw or discard then it would be significantly closer to the other Crossroads' models in terms of consistency. Card draw on a model is relatively rare and definitely not something you would want to be giving your opponent more of. Also, how does Lust not have a Lure!?

I think that she is the only one who can actually put sin token of enemies simply attacking them ,without triggers.

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