Bayou Errata

[Math Mathonwy]

All the cool kids are doing it! On the other Faction Forums, that is.

So what would you errata for the Bayou? Or are we perfect as we are?

My random ramblings:

• Roosters are silly. I'd switch their gun to a 2/3/4 damage track and drop one wound making them 7 Wd models.
• Mah. I'm not sure that her giving +3 Focus to her whole gang is a good thing. I'd make the Focus Trigger on her Holler into "Once per Activation". To compensate, maybe let her drop two Pit Traps at the beginning of the game? Or maybe give her melee attack the Mask baked in.
• Bayou Gremlin. He's the basic Gremlin and Versatile but does anyone outside of Big Hat ever hire one? I'm not at all sure what should be done as they are so cheap and have good synergy with Big Hat but I really wish that they could be adjusted somehow to make them at least an occasional consideration.
• Bayou Smuggler. Another Versatile model but now one that is never taken even within keyword, basically. They have a weird role and die way too easy for that one. Unimpeded is obvious but isn't enough. A rifle would also make sense. But I suppose that the most important thing would be to add some defensive tech to allow them to do what they are supposed to do. Disguised? Stealth? Hard to Wound? I dunno.

Do you agree? Disagree? Other profiles that should be looked at?

[Jesy Blue]

7 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Bayou Smuggler. Another Versatile model but now one that is never taken even within keyword, basically. They have a weird role and die way too easy for that one. Unimpeded is obvious but isn't enough. A rifle would also make sense. But I suppose that the most important thing would be to add some defensive tech to allow them to do what they are supposed to do. Disguised? Stealth? Hard to Wound? I dunno.

Never taken in keyword, in faction, and not even in Bandits.  it's way too wrong on so many levels I feel there is not enough change to be done on it until it's rewritten for 4th edition.

All I need from Bayou errata is clarification on the emissary's Steamroller (not having the conversation here again, it devolved ugly last time); our faction is sold, and if you forgo the Zoriada hate, which seems to only be when she's in Neverborn for some reason, we're solid on the fronts.

[Scoffer]

26 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Roosters are silly. I'd switch their gun to a 2/3/4 damage track and drop one wound making them 7 Wd models.

Roosters are glass cannons. I don't think it is a good idea to make them more glass and less cannon. But the range of their gun could be reduced to 12" - so they will not be able to keep safe distance from most shooting models.

 

[GrumpyGrandpa]

I too would like to see Mah's Focus-trigger on Horrible Hollerin'  become a single-use. It seems too strong in its current form, and adds too much flack on the keyword as a whole. 

This would obviously translate to other crews that have a similar problem - Such as the Nephilim crew. 

Maybe make Focus automatically reduce down to +1 at the End Phase?

[Mxbedlam]

Bayou Errata: Give us full clarification on Shockwaves with Pigapult and Wong's Uncontrollable Magic. Plus clarification on Launch into Space as far as Marker orientation. 

Agree on Mah Focus, though if you do that, leave roosters alone.  

Shouting Orders needs to just be focus as a bonus action, no discard. 

Smugglers: we have enough stealth in faction. What they need is a good movement option, though I guess you can always put coffee on them. Man they are hard to fix without starting from the ground up.  Unique action: I know a short cut: rg 6" stat 5 TN 12Mask: Target a friendly model. Place that model in base contact with a scheme marker within 6" of this model. 

I might be able to think of a little more later on but honestly Bayou is in a pretty darn good place right now

 

[wizuriel]

Rooster Riders (Goal is to make them less machine gunny and more pinball glass cannons of death. Using reckless to activate their grit and deleting a model at 14" range is a bit too strong imo)

-Change grit (frantic) to Grit (Reckless Charge): while this model has half of its maximum health or less its attack actions generated from Cg actions receive  to their duels and damage flips

-change beak to you have to declare triggers

-on beak change  trigger to Pinball: This model charges the closest model, ignoring models it is already engaged with, and receives  to its duel

-on beak add rampage: Push this model 5", ignoring any models such that this model moves through the target. Models this model pushed through in this way much each pass a TN 13 Mv duel or suffer 1 damage

 

Big Brain Brin (obeying him to keep calculating the possibilities gets silly quickly)

-Calculate the possibilities is once per turn

 

Mah 

-creative cussing gives focus to this and the targeted model

 

Sparks

-would make scrapyard mines LOS instead of 6" range

 

Smuggler (goal is make them a faster disruption model)

-give them the  built in paddle

-Give them dowsing stick

-give them unimpeded

-Take advantage of the terrain: This model gains a  to all duels when benefiting from cover or concealment 

 

Fingers (imo a bit over cost)

-Give him don't mind me

-Trusty flask give him the  built in

 

Wrastler / Mancha 

-Unconventional fighting: This model can declare non  on attacks generated from the charge action

[Mxbedlam]

33 minutes ago, wizuriel said:

Rooster Riders (Goal is to make them less machine gunny and more pinball glass cannons of death. Using reckless to activate their grit and deleting a model at 14" range is a bit too strong imo)

-Change grit (frantic) to Grit (Reckless Charge): while this model has half of its maximum health or less its attack actions generated from Cg actions receive  to their duels and damage flips

-change beak to you have to declare triggers

-on beak change  trigger to Pinball: This model charges the closest model, ignoring models it is already engaged with, and receives  to its duel

-on beak add rampage: Push this model 5", ignoring any models such that this model moves through the target. Models this model pushed through in this way much each pass a TN 13 Mv duel or suffer 1 damage

 

Big Brain Brin (obeying him to keep calculating the possibilities gets silly quickly)

-Calculate the possibilities is once per turn

 

Mah 

-creative cussing gives focus to this and the targeted model

 

Sparks

-would make scrapyard mines LOS instead of 6" range

 

Smuggler (goal is make them a faster disruption model)

-give them the  built in paddle

-Give them dowsing stick

-give them unimpeded

-Take advantage of the terrain: This model gains a  to all duels when benefiting from cover or concealment 

 

Fingers (imo a bit over cost)

-Give him don't mind me

-Trusty flask give him the  built in

 

Wrastler / Mancha 

-Unconventional fighting: This model can declare non  on attacks generated from the charge action

I really like that idea for wraslers. Using Toss in the Mud on a charge is cool

[Scoffer]

I see no reasons to nerf Mah. The purpose of errata is to remove NPE and repair broken things. Mah is not NPE and is not broken.

Giving focused +3 turn one is good, but it costs you a whole activation of a killy master and a stone or two. The only model in keyword (other than Mah herself) with offencive stat 6 is Sparks, but his damage track is 2/3/4. The only model in keyword with DF6 is... nobody but Mah. Focused increases chances to win a duel and makes stat5 look like 5,5, but it doesn't guarantee success against stat6/7. In Mah's crew all those focuses are more like a temporary boost for her mediocre models' stats.

Also Creative Cussing is not very usefull after turn one, unless you bubble your crew around Mah in mid-field (which means you have generously given control of the table to your opponent). 

Making Creative Cussing once per activation will make it much worse than Blasphemous Ritual, because Blasphemous Ritual is a bonus action of a 6ss [versatile] minion and doesn't even need a flip. 

So please leave Mah alone untill she starts winning tournaments.

 

2 hours ago, wizuriel said:

Big Brain Brin (obeying him to keep calculating the possibilities gets silly quickly)

-Calculate the possibilities is once per turn

Obeying Brin to Calculate Possibilities is a waste of a good Obey (and a good card or two). 

To be honest, the only Bayou model, that really needs an errata (except for Smugglers, but I can't see a way to make them work) is McTavish. I think it can get a chance to see the table as is if it's cost is reduced to 8ss, or if it gets Eat Your Fill and Sudden Strike allows it to take any attack action (not melee-only).

[rober695]

For me I just want clarification on the shockwaves for Wong and Pigapult. Do you damage the model it is centered on or not? Is there technically a marker centered on the model or not. 

[Math Mathonwy]

What if Smugglers were 4SS? Would everyone then always take two in every crew? I mean, I realize that the suggestion is a bit bonkers...

[Mxbedlam]

4 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

What if Smugglers were 4SS? Would everyone then always take two in every crew? I mean, I realize that the suggestion is a bit bonkers...

I'd absolutely consider it at that point just for the bonus action and marker move. 

 

[Scoffer]

3 hours ago, wizuriel said:

Sparks

-would make scrapyard mines LOS instead of 6" range

This will be enough to make him worth 16 stones. Just imagine Ophelia shooting her Trash Cannon and covering half of enemy side of the table with enemy-only hazard! 

[Fixxer]

6 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Bayou Gremlin. He's the basic Gremlin and Versatile but does anyone outside of Big Hat ever hire one? I'm not at all sure what should be done as they are so cheap and have good synergy with Big Hat but I really wish that they could be adjusted somehow to make them at least an occasional consideration.

I am amused at the idea of hiring up to 8 Bayou gremlins OOK into Reckoning and Turf War. Heck, I almost think they'd be good into any crew that doesnt have access to a lot of blasts, pulses, and shockwaves. LIke focus melee crews or the like. 

Being insignificant it causes serious resource drain on your opponent to have to deal with them. They get no reckoning points for killing them, but not the other way around. Same is true for affecting turf war markers. Sure, you're giving up a bunch of pass tokens, but I'd argue that bogging and slowing the game down the way 8 insignificant models can is a viable approach into certain declared masters. Ophelia and a strong core of ranged damage dealers, Brewie and some armored beaters, Zipp in any fashion for total denial... Just my opinion. I think Bayou Gremlins are awesome for 2ss a pop. 

I agree with @Scoffer that Mah should be left alone, same with roosters... 

I also agree that Bayou Smugglers are lacking for a 6ss model. I mean... Yikes. I dont see anything on that card thats really worthwhile in a game. Love the models though so kind of a shame. 

Mctavish is great with Zoraida but is seriously lacking as a versatile Henchman. He needs something in regards to Df tech. I Know Wyrd just hates slapping HtK on stuff, but that would make him much more viable at 9ss. 

I think the faction is pretty rock solid overall without many NPE or totally lacking options. Surprisingly short list of models here, thats awesome. 

 

[ShinChan]

3 hours ago, Scoffer said:

I see no reasons to nerf Mah. The purpose of errata is to remove NPE and repair broken things. Mah is not NPE and is not broken.

Giving focused +3 turn one is good, but it costs you a whole activation of a killy master and a stone or two. The only model in keyword (other than Mah herself) with offencive stat 6 is Sparks, but his damage track is 2/3/4. The only model in keyword with DF6 is... nobody but Mah. Focused increases chances to win a duel and makes stat5 look like 5,5, but it doesn't guarantee success against stat6/7. In Mah's crew all those focuses are more like a temporary boost for her mediocre models' stats.

Also Creative Cussing is not very usefull after turn one, unless you bubble your crew around Mah in mid-field (which means you have generously given control of the table to your opponent). 

Making Creative Cussing once per activation will make it much worse than Blasphemous Ritual, because Blasphemous Ritual is a bonus action of a 6ss [versatile] minion and doesn't even need a flip. 

So please leave Mah alone untill she starts winning tournaments.

 

Obeying Brin to Calculate Possibilities is a waste of a good Obey (and a good card or two). 

To be honest, the only Bayou model, that really needs an errata (except for Smugglers, but I can't see a way to make them work) is McTavish. I think it can get a chance to see the table as is if it's cost is reduced to 8ss, or if it gets Eat Your Fill and Sudden Strike allows it to take any attack action (not melee-only).

I agree with the Mah part, although I think that the 14" range is excessive in the Roster Riders, it could be reduced to 12" and still be good models.

BBB is easy to obey with Bokors in any list, and it's not a waste of Obey at all, since you can easily have 3 Obeys per turn, even running both of them OOK, getting yourself a really hot deck, while drawing some cards.

I would change Calculate the possibilities to "Only during this model's activation".

3 hours ago, rober695 said:

For me I just want clarification on the shockwaves for Wong and Pigapult. Do you damage the model it is centered on or not? Is there technically a marker centered on the model or not. 

I though there was a consensus, but this is how it's played everywhere I know:

• Wong doesn't drop shockwave. The model is damaged (suffers 1 damage since it's written in the ability).
• Pigapult: Drops the shockwave and the model is affected.

I have a more deep question that I would like to see solved:

• I do "Launch into the Space" with Wong.
• At the beginning of the next turn, I drop the marker affecting 5 of my models, while all of them are within 6" of Sammy LaCroix and her "Petty Illusions"
• Do I draw 5 cards, 1 or 0 ?

In terms of buff, you've already mentioned the most obvious one, the Smugglers. Other models I consider:

• Taxidermist: They die too easily after paying the tax or 2ss in order to bring a stuffed piglet.
• Burt Jebsen: He dies way to easy. He really needs infused body or a bump into his defense/Wd.
• I still think that there's a huge problem in the Wizz-Bang keyword with only Wong being able to use glowy from the enemy models, but I hope it get fixed with the release of future models. Also in this keyword, after the change to Injured, they keyword didn't got any adjustment, so it has a fair amount of injured, but doesn't take much advantage of it most of the time. I'm talking mainly about Fzzzzap! If you go for the injured trigger, you don't want to use it with your own models, and most of the time you want to use it more in your own models than in the enemy models.

I don't like the Banjonistas more than for the push, they seem a single purpose model, but I recognize that it's personal preference, not an objective feedback.

 

 

[Jesy Blue]

2 hours ago, Fixxer said:

I am amused at the idea of hiring up to 8 Bayou gremlins OOK into Reckoning and Turf War. Heck, I almost think they'd be good into any crew that doesnt have access to a lot of blasts, pulses, and shockwaves. LIke focus melee crews or the like. 

Being insignificant it causes serious resource drain on your opponent to have to deal with them. They get no reckoning points for killing them, but not the other way around. Same is true for affecting turf war markers. Sure, you're giving up a bunch of pass tokens, but I'd argue that bogging and slowing the game down the way 8 insignificant models can is a viable approach into certain declared masters. Ophelia and a strong core of ranged damage dealers, Brewie and some armored beaters, Zipp in any fashion for total denial... Just my opinion. I think Bayou Gremlins are awesome for 2ss a pop.

This is how I play Hamelin in Reckoning... 12 Rats that I never uograde to a Rat King in your way keep you from killing the 3 models that you can even score on in the crew.  If I deny you the 4 Strategy points from the word go, you're behind the 8 ball.

It might work in Bayou.... what else is Insignificant?  Stuffed Piglet & Pigapult.... hmmmm.  This might work:

New Som'er Teeth Jones Crew (Bayou)
Size: 50 - Pool: 9
Leader:
  Som'er Teeth Jones
Totem(s):
  Skeeter
  Skeeter 2
Hires:
  Bayou Gremlin
  Bayou Gremlin 2
  Bayou Gremlin 3
  Bayou Gremlin 4
  Bayou Gremlin 5
  Bayou Gremlin 6
  Bayou Gremlin 7
  Bayou Gremlin 8
  Stuffed Piglet
  Stuffed Piglet 2
  Stuffed Piglet 3
  Stuffed Piglet 4
  Stuffed Piglet 5
  Stuffed Piglet 6
  Pigapult

 

I wonder if there's any Schemes you could actually pull off with this besides Assasinate?

[cbtb11235813]

9 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

This is how I play Hamelin in Reckoning... 12 Rats that I never uograde to a Rat King in your way keep you from killing the 3 models that you can even score on in the crew.  If I deny you the 4 Strategy points from the word go, you're behind the 8 ball.

It might work in Bayou.... what else is Insignificant?  Stuffed Piglet & Pigapult.... hmmmm.  This might work:

New Som'er Teeth Jones Crew (Bayou)
Size: 50 - Pool: 9
Leader:
  Som'er Teeth Jones
Totem(s):
  Skeeter
  Skeeter 2
Hires:
  Bayou Gremlin
  Bayou Gremlin 2
  Bayou Gremlin 3
  Bayou Gremlin 4
  Bayou Gremlin 5
  Bayou Gremlin 6
  Bayou Gremlin 7
  Bayou Gremlin 8
  Stuffed Piglet
  Stuffed Piglet 2
  Stuffed Piglet 3
  Stuffed Piglet 4
  Stuffed Piglet 5
  Stuffed Piglet 6
  Pigapult

 

I wonder if there's any Schemes you could actually pull off with this besides Assasinate?

This is dangerous though, as if they do manage to kill Som'er, they auto score the rest of reckoning. Your 9 stones make that difficult but it could happen. Entertaining list either way

[Jesy Blue]

They can only score 1 point of reckoning by killing the Leader no matter which turn you killed him on.

[OracleToronto]

I am going to yet again bring up one of the worst models we have access to ... Old Cranky. He desperately needs to drop down from 5 to 4 stones and even then his abilities need some love. Here are some of the glaring weaknesses of this amazingly fluffy character:

• 4 woulds with a df and wp of 4 (yes those can get boosts but as the theme of this post will show - in order to gain any access to the boosts of Big Hat he needs to be in the thick of it.)

• a mv 4 - meaning even if you wanted him nearby your models to be part of the team he is painfully slow to get there.

• the positive flip to Initiative is not nearly as good as it first seems - and your opponent always over compensates for it by hunting him down. So much so I see people hire him and hide him behind terrain in their deployment zone. 5 stones for a positive flip to Initiative is not worth it.

• Hard to Kill and Demise - expendable do not make up for his abysmal defences and oddly huge target on his head. 

• His ability to hit a model with his attack (2/3/4 spread) to have another model with LOS and  range to do a fee shot against the target requires a ton of set up and for you to charge with your measly 4" and 1" melee range. It should at least have the suit built in to the attack.

• His obey is only stat 5 with a 14 of mask required. Meaning if he wants a chance in hell of it going off he needs 2 models within 3" to get the +2. I honestly think he should have a stat 7 that can go to 9 if he is in the mix of things with allies nearby. At least then he would be brought for the purpose of powerful obeys. To add insult to injury for some reason he has a trigger that goes off if you get the Mask you need to allow Cranky to push 1" ... not even 2" or even the ability to move the other model... 

• lastly his bonus action has a 2" range and needs a corpse marker to work (again meaning he has to move up to where action at least happened) and has a laughable 50/50 (ish) chance of even gaining you a soul stone.

 

I am super into Somer and Big Hat and at quick glance I was super excited to have my grumbling old timer yelling at people, I have tried everything I can think of to get the value out of him. (I even though of keeping him beside the Pigapult so it could discard a card to get focus as a bonus action until I realized he only grants that ability to other Big Hat models) 

 

** as an added note - I think the best way to fix this model is to give him "Bully" as a built in front of card ability. It would allow him to obey cheap models easier and would be very thematic. 

  

 

[OracleToronto]

Also just to weigh in on the Mah Tucket discussion (as someone who has been playing with her crew a lot lately) the Focus stacks are super easy to counter once you know you are facing Mah. Any model that grants concealment can make the long range pot shots much less accurate - and condition removal can also strip all the stacks in a single blow. Truly the "super focus bubble" is only devastating the first time you experience it, then it becomes powerful, then fades down to strong. Pushes and Focus are Mah's main mechanics with the pit traps being nice but icing on the cake - many other Masters have powerful modes of play that are much harder to counter.

 

but that's just my 2 cents, I am hardly trying to sound like an expert.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

They can only score 1 point of reckoning by killing the Leader no matter which turn you killed him on.

Reckoning has a clause that you score if there are no enemies left in play. So as soon as the leader is dead, all you have are insignificant models and it counts as no enemies in play.

So you'd score every turn after the leader is dead.

[GrumpyGrandpa]

10 hours ago, ShinChan said:

I would change Calculate the possibilities to "Only during this model's activation".

This seems like a great fix, imo. 

I've personally considered one of the following changes as an alternative:

• No longer draw a card at the end of the action
• Once per turn (Seems very harsh)
• Once per activation (Allows for Obey-ing, which makes the change feel redundant)

But Only during this model's activation seems like a better choice imo.

 

ALSO

8 hours ago, OracleToronto said:

I am going to yet again bring up one of the worst models we have access to ... Old Cranky.

I'd like to Agree twice, if possible. Someone please help with that 😁

ALSO

10 hours ago, ShinChan said:

I don't like the Banjonistas more than for the push, they seem a single purpose model, but I recognize that it's personal preference, not an objective feedback.

I'm gonna back up this aswell. The model just doesn't seem to be worth the stones you pay for it. Maybe if Pluck the Strings was a ranged attack I'd see myself enjoy the model more.

[Math Mathonwy]

10 hours ago, OracleToronto said:

Also just to weigh in on the Mah Tucket discussion (as someone who has been playing with her crew a lot lately) the Focus stacks are super easy to counter once you know you are facing Mah. Any model that grants concealment can make the long range pot shots much less accurate - and condition removal can also strip all the stacks in a single blow. Truly the "super focus bubble" is only devastating the first time you experience it, then it becomes powerful, then fades down to strong. Pushes and Focus are Mah's main mechanics with the pit traps being nice but icing on the cake - many other Masters have powerful modes of play that are much harder to counter.

The problem is that Roosters are both extremely mobile and have an extremely long range. And put out a ton of attacks - I dunno, I have never had Focus stripped from them since most Condition Removal is kinda rare (in that there are only a certain amount of models in the opposing force capable of it) and usually doesn't have a massive range. Concealment OTOH is always there and Focus nullifies it which is where much the power comes from.

But I'm not sure my main contention here is so much the power level (though I have yet to lose a game while stacking Focus on Roosters) but rather that I'm not quite sure that it was Mah's intended playstyle. It's also kinda annoying and fiddly. I do agree that it is currently her source of power and without it she would perhaps become a bit irrelevant so care should be taken.

[Jesy Blue]

11 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Reckoning has a clause that you score if there are no enemies left in play. So as soon as the leader is dead, all you have are insignificant models and it counts as no enemies in play.

So you'd score every turn after the leader is dead.

Ohhh.... if Insignificant doesn't count towards the Strategy for good, it doesn't count for bad either.  Darn, that's a big gamble, but I like it!  Maybe ease a couple models back to start with the full 10 stones to keep the master alive.

 

And to add to the Old Cranky issues, almost all of the 2nd edition generic totems suffered in 3rd, but Old Cranky suffered the most!

 

[Scoffer]

13 hours ago, OracleToronto said:

I am going to yet again bring up one of the worst models we have access to ... Old Cranky. He desperately needs to drop down from 5 to 4 stones and even then his abilities need some love.

Old Cranky can do a lot for a 5-stone model. A [+] on initiative flip is huge. Stat7 Obey is fine even without a built-in mask - it's the same as Amina Naidu (a 9ss Henchman) has, you will need a card in hand to make it happen, but it's still just a 7mask. Frantic search with a 50% chance of gaining a stone means that this model costs only 2.5 stones instead of 5. As long as Som'er can summon several Bayou Gremlins each turn and kill them with Make Me Proud Boys there will be no problems with corpse markers in your deployment zone for Cranky.

[ShinChan]

5 minutes ago, Scoffer said:

Old Cranky can do a lot for a 5-stone model. A [+] on initiative flip is huge. Stat7 Obey is fine even without a built-in mask - it's the same as Amina Naidu (a 9ss Henchman) has, you will need a card in hand to make it happen, but it's still just a 7mask. Frantic search with a 50% chance of gaining a stone means that this model costs only 2.5 stones instead of 5. As long as Som'er can summon several Bayou Gremlins each turn and kill them with Make Me Proud Boys there will be no problems with corpse markers in your deployment zone for Cranky.

Well, why would you detonate your own Bayou Gremlins in the deployment zone starting turn 1? Makes no sense. Usually you won't be able to use the  until turn 3, so ideally 1.5ss.

5 hours ago, GrumpyGrandpa said:

ALSO

I'm gonna back up this aswell. The model just doesn't seem to be worth the stones you pay for it. Maybe if Pluck the Strings was a ranged attack I'd see myself enjoy the model more.

250% agree on this. Make it a Rg 8" no  and I'm totally fine with the model itself.